John Butler Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 I am not an old forum hand. I’ve been on this site only this year. It seems to me that the topic Oswald Leaving TSBD? is the longest and most debated of topics. 228 pages of comments and discussion is too much for me to read. I tried scanning through some of the discussion looking for any mention of the John Martin film and some of the frames that show the Prayer Man. I didn’t find what I was looking for. If I missed something like what I am going to say next then just dismiss what I am saying. It seems that most folks agree that the Prayer Man is Oswald. The Weigman film shows Prayer Man in the doorway of the TSBD after the assassination. Fine. But, the point should be where was he during the assassination? The John Martin film has the answer. There are several frames in the film that show the Prayer Man on Elm Street west of the TSBD doorway and on the curb with a camera (or an object in his hands held like a camera). The presidential limousine is just coming into the picture. Oswald was on Elm Street filming the President and not up in the Sniper’s Nest shooting the President. For a better accounting of this go to my website jfkrunningthegauntlet.com and read the article The Prayer Man and John Martin. Marrion Baker is a xxxx. That is just plain and simple. All you have to do is read his statement of 11-22-63 statement given on the day of the assassination when his memory was the freshest. AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT THE STATE OF TEXAS COUNTY OF DALLAS BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket. s/ M. L. Baker SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963 /s/ Mary Rattan Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas Does this sound at all like the Baker/Oswald confrontation in the 2nd floor break room? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 (edited) On 11/22/2017 at 2:39 PM, John Butler said: ...Marrion Baker is a L-I-A-R. That is just plain and simple. All you have to do is read his statement of 11-22-63 statement given on the day of the assassination when his memory was the freshest. AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT THE STATE OF TEXAS COUNTY OF DALLAS BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket. s/ M. L. Baker SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963 /s/ Mary Rattan Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas Does this sound at all like the Baker/Oswald confrontation in the 2nd floor break room? John, You are stating as a fact that Dallas Policeman Marrion Baker was a L-I-A-R. You say it is "plain and simple" but you don't offer anything to support your claim aside from his Affidavit, which seems very normal for me -- because it sounds a like a person who was "shaken up" by the horrific events of 11/22/1963 (exactly 54 years ago today). Are you upset because the physical description was not very accurate? But Baker only saw LHO for a few seconds, and the lighting was not perfect -- so, why do you expect his physical description to be perfect? To me this sounds very much like the Baker/Oswald confrontation near the 2nd floor TSBD break room. It only lasted a few seconds, and Marrion Baker was anxious to get to the roof of the TSBD, because he felt certain that the JFK shots came from there. What is your rationale for calling Officer Baker a L-I-A-R "pure and simple"? I don't see it. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited November 24, 2017 by Paul Trejo typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Prutsok Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 5 hours ago, John Butler said: I am not an old forum hand. I’ve been on this site only this year. It seems to me that the topic Oswald Leaving TSBD? is the longest and most debated of topics. 228 pages of comments and discussion is too much for me to read. I tried scanning through some of the discussion looking for any mention of the John Martin film and some of the frames that show the Prayer Man. I didn’t find what I was looking for. If I missed something like what I am going to say next then just dismiss what I am saying. It seems that most folks agree that the Prayer Man is Oswald. The Weigman film shows Prayer Man in the doorway of the TSBD after the assassination. Fine. But, the point should be where was he during the assassination? The John Martin film has the answer. There are several frames in the film that show the Prayer Man on Elm Street west of the TSBD doorway and on the curb with a camera (or an object in his hands held like a camera). The presidential limousine is just coming into the picture. Oswald was on Elm Street filming the President and not up in the Sniper’s Nest shooting the President. For a better accounting of this go to my website jfkrunningthegauntlet.com and read the article The Prayer Man and John Martin. Marrion Baker is a xxxx. That is just plain and simple. All you have to do is read his statement of 11-22-63 statement given on the day of the assassination when his memory was the freshest. AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT THE STATE OF TEXAS COUNTY OF DALLAS BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket. s/ M. L. Baker SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963 /s/ Mary Rattan Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas Does this sound at all like the Baker/Oswald confrontation in the 2nd floor break room? It's worth the read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 8 hours ago, John Butler said: Marrion Baker is a xxxx. That is just plain and simple. All you have to do is read his statement of 11-22-63 statement given on the day of the assassination when his memory was the freshest. John, I wouldn't say that Baker was a l-i-a-r. I would say he was convinced to l-i-e. Many here would agree that he l-i-e-d. Some of us believe Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady also l-i-e-d in their testimonies, for related reasons. If the Martin film shows Prayer Man to be out there at the time of the assassination, that would indeed be important -- if it turns out Prayer Man was Oswald. But even if that were not the case, I think that his being in Weigman/Darnell would indicate that he could not have been a 6th floor shooter. Because I don't think Oswald couldn't have shot the president and gotten down to Prayer Man's position in such a short period of time. It depends upon the timing, of course, and I'm no expert on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, John Butler said: I am not an old forum hand. I’ve been on this site only this year. It seems to me that the topic Oswald Leaving TSBD? is the longest and most debated of topics. 228 pages of comments and discussion is too much for me to read. I tried scanning through some of the discussion looking for any mention of the John Martin film and some of the frames that show the Prayer Man. I didn’t find what I was looking for. If I missed something like what I am going to say next then just dismiss what I am saying. It seems that most folks agree that the Prayer Man is Oswald. The Weigman film shows Prayer Man in the doorway of the TSBD after the assassination. Fine. But, the point should be where was he during the assassination? The John Martin film has the answer. There are several frames in the film that show the Prayer Man on Elm Street west of the TSBD doorway and on the curb with a camera (or an object in his hands held like a camera). The presidential limousine is just coming into the picture. Oswald was on Elm Street filming the President and not up in the Sniper’s Nest shooting the President. For a better accounting of this go to my website jfkrunningthegauntlet.com and read the article The Prayer Man and John Martin. Marrion Baker is a xxxx. That is just plain and simple. All you have to do is read his statement of 11-22-63 statement given on the day of the assassination when his memory was the freshest. AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT THE STATE OF TEXAS COUNTY OF DALLAS BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket. s/ M. L. Baker SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963 /s/ Mary Rattan Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas Does this sound at all like the Baker/Oswald confrontation in the 2nd floor break room? John: would you be willing to post some of the film frames to make a case? While a reference to own blog can be useful, we discuss the research as it is presented here. Thanks. Edited November 23, 2017 by Andrej Stancak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 (edited) 21 hours ago, John Butler said: I am not an old forum hand. I’ve been on this site only this year. It seems to me that the topic Oswald Leaving TSBD? is the longest and most debated of topics. 228 pages of comments and discussion is too much for me to read. I tried scanning through some of the discussion looking for any mention of the John Martin film and some of the frames that show the Prayer Man. I didn’t find what I was looking for. If I missed something like what I am going to say next then just dismiss what I am saying. It seems that most folks agree that the Prayer Man is Oswald. The Weigman film shows Prayer Man in the doorway of the TSBD after the assassination. Fine. But, the point should be where was he during the assassination? The John Martin film has the answer. There are several frames in the film that show the Prayer Man on Elm Street west of the TSBD doorway and on the curb with a camera (or an object in his hands held like a camera). The presidential limousine is just coming into the picture. Oswald was on Elm Street filming the President and not up in the Sniper’s Nest shooting the President. For a better accounting of this go to my website jfkrunningthegauntlet.com and read the article The Prayer Man and John Martin. Marrion Baker is a xxxx. That is just plain and simple. All you have to do is read his statement of 11-22-63 statement given on the day of the assassination when his memory was the freshest. AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT THE STATE OF TEXAS COUNTY OF DALLAS BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket. s/ M. L. Baker SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963 /s/ Mary Rattan Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas Does this sound at all like the Baker/Oswald confrontation in the 2nd floor break room? Hello John, the best way to get up t speed regarding this thread is to get Stan Dane's book, which is the best summarisation overall. Many later pages of this thread have been wasted with inane drivel by certain posters https://www.amazon.com/Prayer-Man-Shadows-Into-Light/dp/1944205012/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1511459340&sr=1-1&keywords=prayer+man One more thing Andrej and Robin, I do not subscribe to the find of Andrej's short woman is P. Sanders. It is more than likely Sarah Stanton. And she is standing one step down. Now then John please ponit out where you see PM! Edited November 23, 2017 by Bart Kamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 On 11/22/2017 at 12:52 PM, Andrej Stancak said: The blurriness of what could be the legs and waist in Prayer Man's figure may also be related to the type of clothing he wore. This is the clothes which Lee Harvey Oswald wore on the morning of the assassination, confirmed by Marina Oswald's testimony. Mr. Frazier also mentioned in his Clay Shaw testimony that Lee Oswald wore a worker type of clothes which people would not be worried about if it got damaged. Quite a girthy shirt.....what say you Bill Miller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 Bart: The identity of the small lady in Darnell would become more obvious if the other of the two ladies purportedly standing on the top landing would be identified: the shorter of the two would be Mrs. Stanton and the taller would be Mrs. Sanders. However, if the other lady is found then the question which lady was which is of lesser importance in Prayer Man context. As to whether the short lady could stand on the second step (the step below the top landing) I guess, and I may be mistaken, that she was in the shadow. The only shadow in the east part of the doorway was just in front of the glass window, and even there the shadow was only above a certain height. This can be seen in the 3D reconstruction. Should she stand on the second step in Darnell (or are you describing the picture you posted?), she would be really huge because we would need to add the 7 1/4 '' representing the height of one step to her body height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Walton Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 John Butler - it may be important to keep in mind that coercison played a big role in people's testimony. By that I mean, Baker's testimony is a result of getting him to change his testimony so they could blame it on LHO. Also, in your video, I'm not seeing PM in there. Can you point out where he is? Robin and Andrej - nice work on PM having one step down while he was up there. I used to think that wasn't the case, that because he was standing back further into the alcove it made his perspective look smaller. But the one step down seems to make more sense. My only issue with it now is - when was that film frame shot - how much time since the last shot elapsed? I'm asking because would someone have just stood there frozen with one step down for that long of a time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 (edited) Coming back to the problem of Prayer Man's left leg. Was it bent or not? The starting image is the frame with labeled 20130908-003636_2_1. This frame is perhaps the sharpest from the initial Darnell frames in which the lady in the white dress has still not covered Prayer Man's left leg. The doorway was enlarged to be able to appreciate the details and to verify the findings by viewing a frame devoid of any lines. The doorway was enlarged and a vertical dot line was drawn through Prayer Man's figure to indicate the approximate body axis. The expected course of Prayer Man's left leg should he stand with both his legs straight is highlighted with a yellow line. The purple line indicates the edge of a circular hole in the front panel of the radiator which is partially visible at a spot next to white lady's right arm. The blue line is the contour of Mrs. Maddie Reese's figure. Finally, the orange line delineates the visible part of the radiator. The next picture shows the same scene with the 3D model overlaid with a blending coefficient of 60%. The region between the yellow line (contour of Prayer Man's stretched left leg) and the blue line (contour of Mrs. Reese's figure) is filled with a radiator. As the small bit of the radiator is visible (orange contour) along with a part of the hole on the front panel of the radiator (purple line), the missing radiator in Darnell's still can only be due to an object which obfuscated the view of the radiator. Edited November 24, 2017 by Andrej Stancak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 In the next, the same scene was used, however, the lines have been changed to illustrate the situation of Prayer Man having his left leg bent. The two yellow lines are approximate contours of what possibly is Prayer Man's left leg. The blue line is again the contour of Mrs. Maddie Reese, and the purple line is the edge of the hole in the front panel of the radiator. The same scene with the 3D model overlaid with a 60% blending. No part of the radiator can be seen in the region between the white lady and Mrs. Reese's figure because this region was covered by Prayer Man's left leg. Prayer Man, according to this analysis had his left leg bent. It is possible to calculate what distance was "gained" by bending the left leg in the knee joint and check if this distance would correspond to the height of one step (7 1/4''). If Prayer Man had his left leg bent, he had to support his body with his right foot, and the right foot would be located below the left foot. This is what the one-foot-up-one-foot-down hypothesis says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 (edited) To follow up with Prayer Man' bent left leg, a question can be raised whether the chief candidate for being Prayer Man did have a habit of resting the weight of his body on his right foot and bending his left leg. Here are few examples. 1. Lee Harvey Oswald with his Civil Patrol group. Please note Lee's left leg bent and pushed forwards. His right leg cannot be seen in full, however, it seems obvious that the weight of the body rested on his right foot. A very small bit of Lee's right leg can be seen if the picture is enlarged. N.B. Originally, a picture of someone resembling Lee and playing with baby June was posted here. 2. Lee Harvey Oswald in Minsk. 3. Lee Harvey Oswald in the infamous backyard photograph. I have added Andy's pose to illustrate that it was possible for Lee Harvey Oswald to stand this way. 4. One of three mugs shot pictures taken by the New Orleans Police Department in July 1963. Lee Harvey Oswald was asked to stand upright and he tried. Yet, this left knee appears to be slightly higher than his right knee, and the hips are asymmetric suggesting that the body weight rested on his right foot. There may be other examples of Lee Harvey Oswald's stance which I hope people may wish to add. The habit of standing in a particular way is hard-wired in our brains. It is an automatic program which is used especially if people behave spontaneously or are very distracted and carry out unrelated things (e.g. stance) automatically. Lee Harvey Oswald was able to manifest his right-foot preference even if he was asked to stand upright. I am therefore comfortable with the one-foot-down-one-foot-up posture which Prayer Man had assumed when he reached the doorway. Lee Harvey Oswald would do this automatically. Edited November 25, 2017 by Andrej Stancak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 On 11/21/2017 at 2:46 PM, Andrej Stancak said: And one more which is closer to Darnell's view angle. Andrej, I have a program that allows me to easily single-step through frames of an animated gif. I have used this to carefully examine the stabilized Darnell film. The film shows Gloria Calvery standing one step below Lovelady. It shows her companion,Woman in White, climbing the stars aside Gloria. This occurs while Officer Baker is crossing the street. At the beginning we see Lovelady bending down so he can hear Gloria (presumably that's the reason for his bending down). And Woman in White is one step below Calvery. We see Woman in White climb to Gloria's step, and then to Lovelady's step. By then Lovelady has quit bending down. There is one frame that clearly shows which step Woman in White is standing on, and that is when she's on the same step as Gloria. You can tell she's on Gloria's step by comparing their heights. After that she make one more step and is on Lovelady's step. Again, you can tell that by comparing heights. In that one frame where you can clearly see where Woman in White is standing, she is on the fourth step down from the top. Here's the importance of this finding: It proves that Lovelady is standing on the third step down from the top. Not the fourth step down as you have him in the above graphic. Unfortunately this means that Prayer Man cannot be standing one step down from the top, as you have him doing. He has to be standing fully on the top landing. Step through the frames yourself and find the one where you can see Woman in White's leg. You will see for yourself I am right. (Or you can show me where I'm wrong.) If you want I can e-mail you the file. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Walton Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 Where are these photos Sandy? Talking about them and describing them vs actually showing them are two different things. If you have a program that can do frame by frame of a GIF surely you can grab the photos and post them here too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Walton Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 Andrej - the photo of Baby June is with Marina, not Lee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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