Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Michael Walton]

Is it possible he was standing further back on the vestibule making him appear smaller (the perspective thing) compared to that guy to his left, the one standing up with his arms crossed?

[Sandy Larsen]

On 11/25/2017 at 8:36 AM, John Butler said:

 

I'm having problems with photobucket not pasting the right photo here.  Will try with another post.

 

There is about 5 seconds worth of frames similar to this in Martin.  If his camera ran about like Zapruder then that would be about 90 to 100 frames.

 

I'm still having problems with photobucket posting the wrong photo and posting the same photo over an over again.

 

Sorry Sandy, If you want to see more than this then go to my website.

 

This photo will probably not be here long due to my subscription at photobucket expiring.  I am not going to renew after this sorry performance. 

 

 

John,

Do you have any idea where the JFK limo was at the time of the above frame?

The reason I ask is because the early affidavits have Shelley and Lovelady crossing Elm St. extension to the concrete island there just briefly after the limo had passed the front of the TSBD. They ran into Gloria Calvery there and then ran back to the TSBD.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Lee Harvey Oswald (5'9'') could not be Prayer Man if you place Prayer Man with both feet his on the top landing because he would be too tall (e.g. compared to Mr. Frazier's neck/shoulder line).

 

Andrej,

FWIW...

I've done my own height analysis of Prayer Man with him standing in the back corner. My analysis shows him to be 5' 6" to 5' 7".

A couple weeks ago I was going through some of Oswald's Marines medical records and I saw one where his height is given as 5' 8".

So I've been wondering if PM was slouching a little. Or if the height of the glass door -- which I used as a height reference -- was actually a little greater than he standard door height I'd assumed.

(Or if PM isn't Oswald after all.)

 

[Andrej Stancak]

Sandy:

was not Lee Harvey Oswald 5'9''? Please see his autopsy report here:  http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/oswald, lee harvey_report.pdf . The height 5'9'' is the body height I work with, and I assume this body height has been agreed across the board.

One can reduce the body height by slightly bending the head and slightly pushing one foot forwards by not more than 2''. That would give the effective height of 5'7'' which is just too much relative to the shoulder/neck line of Buell Frazier. The standard height of human head is 9'' , however, the line to which Prayer Man's  head aligns with is probably 1'' lower as it looks like neck or shoulder level. That gives the body height of 5'2'' you need to fit if you subtract 10'' from 6' (Frazier' height). There is just no way how you could fit somebody of 5'7''  as Prayer Man. 

The figure below shows a man 5'8'' (actually a copy of Lovelady from the same scene) as much in the corner as possible . You may see that  he is just way too tall, and we do not talk 1-2''.  The other picture shows better the location in the corner. Not only would this figure be too tall, his crossed arms would not allow to have his hands and his left thigh exposed to the sunlight because the line of the shadow is too far from him. 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Andrej Stancak]

54 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

(Or if PM isn't Oswald after all.)

Well, in that case, and I assume you are not thinking of one-foot-down-one-foot-up explanation, it would be someone about 5'2''. However, there would still be problems to satisfy all constraints with a 5'2'' person such as shadows and distances from other figures or doorway landmarks.

Edited November 26, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Thank you Paul. I agree with you that I do not think MB was a witting participant in the case.

Michael,

Yet I am clear on this point -- that insofar as Marrion Baker actually met Lee Harvey Oswald on the 2nd floor near the Coke machine in the break room, when Baker was running up the stairs with Roy Truly at his side (a story that Roy Truly confirms), then it is impossible that the so called "Prayer Man" could be Lee Harvey Oswald.

So -- for all these folks who wish to argue that Prayer Man was Lee Harvey Oswald, standing outside the TSBD front doors when Marrion Baker ran up those steps -- it is mandatory that Marrion Baker be mistaken in his sworn WC testimony.

Yet Marrion Baker cannot merely be mistaken -- since Roy Truly confirms every word of his sworn testimony. 

Therefore -- for those who insist that "Prayer Man" was Lee Harvey Oswald -- they must PRESUME that Baker and Truly were part of a CONSPIRACY to deny that Lee Harvey Oswald was outside the TSBD front doors when they ran inside the TSBD.

There is no real argumentation or evidence that Baker/Truly are L-I-A-R-S, but only the need to PRESUME they are L-I-A-R-S so that this endless search for the physical dimensions of this blurry form can finally be disproved to be Lee Harvey Oswald.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

Thanks Robin and Michael for your suggestions. I plan on using both of them.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Sandy:

was not Lee Harvey Oswald 5'9''? Please see his autopsy report here:  http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/oswald, lee harvey_report.pdf . The height 5'9'' is the body height I work with, and I assume this body height has been agreed across the board.

 

People are taller when lying down. And they are taller in the morning.

 

2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

One can reduce the body height by slightly bending the head and slightly pushing one foot forwards by not more than 2''. That would give the effective height of 5'7'' which is just too much relative to the shoulder/neck line of Buell Frazier. The standard height of human head is 9'' , however, the line to which Prayer Man's  head aligns with is probably 1'' lower as it looks like neck or shoulder level. That gives the body height of 5'2'' you need to fit if you subtract 10'' from 6' (Frazier' height). There is just no way how you could fit somebody of 5'7''  as Prayer Man. 

I did. Our respective working assumptions are probably not the same, and that accounts for our different findings.

 

2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

The figure below shows a man 5'8'' (actually a copy of Lovelady from the same scene) as much in the corner as possible . You may see that  he is just way too tall, and we do not talk 1-2''.  The other picture shows better the location in the corner. Not only would this figure be too tall, his crossed arms would not allow to have his hands and his left thigh exposed to the sunlight because the line of the shadow is too far from him. 

 

 

 

 

 

It appears that your Frazier needs to be nearer the edge of the steps. The shadow is hitting way too low on his chest. Compare it the shadow location on the actual photo:

 

[Andrej Stancak]

Sandy:

Billy Lovelady was 5'8'' and Lee Harvey Oswald was taller than Lovelady and therefore it would be a mistake to assume Oswald as a man 5'8''. 

Thanks for pointing to the shadow on Frazier's chest: the two figures I posted were to help you to figure out the locations and I made them while working a different problem and therefore Frazier was just there and a bit neglected. It would never strike my mind that you would flag this up.

I look forward to seeing your work on Prayer Man as Oswald standing on the top landing.

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Sandy:

Billy Lovelady was 5'8'' and Lee Harvey Oswald was taller than Lovelady and therefore it would be a mistake to assume Oswald as a man 5'8''. 

Andrej,

Did you notice that Oswald's head is 13 inches in height?

Moral of the story... it's difficult to know Oswald's true height.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

18 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Andrej,

Did you notice that Oswald's head is 13 inches in height?

Moral of the story... it's difficult to know Oswald's true height.

 

Sandy, the body height is all right 5'9'' in this image. One cannot measure the head hight from a front view such as this.

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

4 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Sandy:

Billy Lovelady was 5'8'' and Lee Harvey Oswald was taller than Lovelady and therefore it would be a mistake to assume Oswald as a man 5'8''. 

Andrej,

Did you notice that Oswald's head is 13 inches in height?

Moral of the story... it's difficult to know Oswald's true height.

 

3 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Sandy, the body height is all right 5'9'' in this image. One cannot measure the head hight from a front view such as this.

 

Andrej,

What do you mean you can't measure the head height "from a front view such as this?" Of course you can.

The top of his head is at 5' 9" = 69". The bottom of his chin is at 4' 8" = 56" .

The height of his head is therefore 69"- 56" = 13" .

This ridiculous head height should put all height measurements in question. Obviously somebody has tampered with that photo.
 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Andrej Stancak]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

 

Andrej,

What do you mean you can't measure the head height "from a front view such as this?" Of course you can.

The top of his head is at 5' 9" = 69". The bottom of his chin is at 4' 8" = 56" .

The height of his head is therefore 69"- 56" = 13" .

This ridiculous head height should put all height measurements in question. Obviously somebody has tampered with that photo.
 

This picture is actually from Robert Groden's book. Groden pointed to the 13'' head but he did not say the picture was tampered. Whether the picture is valid or not, Oswald was noticeably taller than Lovelady, and Lovelady was 5'8''. Would you agree?

[Tom Hume]

Hi Sandy,

You wrote: “This ridiculous head height [13 inches] should put all height measurements in question. Obviously somebody has tampered with that photo.”

I don’t know if the oddity of Lee’s 13 inch head in the photo you posted is original with you, but if it is, “good eye”! Being a luthier, I have a set of large calipers and just measured my head, chin to crown, at 9 5/8 inches. When I was 17, I was 6’ 1” and my hat size was 7 1/4. My body proportions are about normal, and Lee Oswald appeared about normal as well. 

Maybe this "13 inch head" is worthwhile for you to pursue, Sandy, and I’ll save my anagrams for another time so as not to go off topic. Well, maybe just a couple:

Lee Oswald’s puzzle maker’s name, “RICHARD CASE NAGELL”, anagrams to:

“L’S LARGE CIA HEAD. RCN”

“Lee Harvey Oswald” anagrams to:

“O, A VERY 'SWELL' HEAD”

"Lee Harvey Oswald" anagrams to:

"O HEAD-SWELL VARY '4'"

And “Lee’s 13 inch head” anagrams to:

“LH IS ENHANCED ‘4’”

If indeed Lee’s head "varied" or was "enhanced" by 4 inches, then his actual head should be about 9 inches, a little smaller than mine.

My guess is that Sandy has found another intentionally created Oswald puzzle.  

Really fine graphics work, Andrej!

Tom

Letter/Number Key:

(A=0)(B=1)(C=2)(D=3)(E=4)(F=5)(G=6)(H=7)(I=8)(J=9)(K=10)(L=11)(M=12)(N=13)(O=14)(P=15)(Q=16)(R=17)(S=18)(T=19)(U=20)(V=21)(W=22)(X=23)(Y=24)(Z=25) 

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Tom Hume

[Sandy Larsen]

17 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Oswald was noticeably taller than Lovelady, and Lovelady was 5'8''. Would you agree?

Andrej,

I have never studied Lovelady's height. I have studied Oswald's height and found it usually listed as 5' 9" or 5' 11".  (Which is one reason I believe there were two Oswalds.) I reject 5' 11" as being the true height of the Oswald killed by Ruby. I do accept 5' 9", but believe that 5' 8" may be his correct height.