David Josephs Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 19 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said: This picture is actually from Robert Groden's book. Groden pointed to the 13'' head but he did not say the picture was tampered. Whether the picture is valid or not, Oswald was noticeably taller than Lovelady, and Lovelady was 5'8''. Would you agree? Hi Andrej... Not altered... Misrepresented. Move a shorter man forward a couple inches and he is now 5'9".... Having a 13" head is not possible.... People simply don't work that way.... Noticeably taller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Andrej... A question... When does Lovelady in Hughes, as the limo turns into Elm in full color top left... And in Altgens at z255... Get way over to the right with PM seen in the background? And none of that jives with where Wesley says theses men are... ? ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, David Josephs said: Hi Andrej... Not altered... Misrepresented. Move a shorter man forward a couple inches and he is now 5'9".... Having a 13" head is not possible.... People simply don't work that way.... Noticeably taller? Hello David: I agree that one cannot read the head size from this type of picture because it is a 3D problem. It is easier to claim a photographic manipulation than to search natural explanations. However, to prove that Groden's picture could have been genuine I would need to model it, and I just do not have time and energy to do these time consuming but minor tasks. "Noticeably shorter?" This refers to statements of one or two Depository employees who knew both Oswald and Lovelady and said that these two guys resembled each other in some features but Lovelady was shorter than Oswald. It was a noticeable height difference. I think it was Buell Frazier in one of his interviews. Edited November 28, 2017 by Andrej Stancak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, David Josephs said: Andrej... A question... When does Lovelady in Hughes, as the limo turns into Elm in full color top left... And in Altgens at z255... Get way over to the right with PM seen in the background? And none of that jives with where Wesley says theses men are... ? ?? 3 David: your Hughes frame (the top picture in your composite) is of excellent quality compared to what I was able to obtain by disassembling the film into frames. Where did you find it? Your frame appears to show Prayer Man at his spot which is something I was never able to determine from film frames available to me. I would be grateful for pointing to the source of this image and maybe for posting the picture without any arrows and further panels. This would be is a very important finding as it would help to get a better idea of the arrival of Prayer Man into the doorway. Also, the frame of this quality is easy to model which I am happy to do in a few days time. Your Hughes frame also shows that Lovelady's shirt was open down to his waist which is something I need to correct in my manikin model of Lovelady. Edited November 28, 2017 by Andrej Stancak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 32 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said: 2 hours ago, David Josephs said: Hi Andrej... Not altered... Misrepresented. Move a shorter man forward a couple inches and he is now 5'9".... Having a 13" head is not possible.... People simply don't work that way.... Noticeably taller? Hello David: I agree that one cannot read the head size from this type of picture because it is a 3D problem. It is easier to claim a photographic manipulation than to search natural explanations. The natural explanation is that an Oswald shorter than 5' 9" stepped away from the height chart and toward the camera. Doing so increased both his height and the height of his head. And this proves that Oswald was less than 5' 9" in height. The only natural explanation that would maintain Oswald's alleged 5' 9" height would be if the camera lens were raised to the height of 5' 9" and Oswald stepped away from the height chart and toward the camera. His height would continue to show at 5' 9" but his head height would increase. The problem with these natural explanations is that they don't seem to be natural at all. They both seem to be contrived. But given that the second one seems to serve no logical purpose, I would choose the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 46 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said: 2 hours ago, David Josephs said: 3 David: Your Hughes frame also shows that Lovelady's shirt was open down to his waist which is something I need to correct in my manikin model of Lovelady. Andrej, Good luck settling on where Lovelady had his shirt buttoned. He seems to have been a habitual re-buttoner. Early in the Hughes film it was buttoned at the waist. In Darnell it was at mid chest. Then in Martin it was buttoned all the way up. Even though a few seconds earlier it was buttoned down (as shown late in the Hughes film.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 (edited) More food for thought on relative heights of LHO and BNL: I am aware that BNL told the FBI, and the HSCA that he was 5' 8. But Lovelady also gave what seems like contradictory information on his height in an article that was circulated by UPI. The crop below is from an article that appeared in the Oxnard CA, Press Courier May 23, 1964. The article title was "JFK Slaying Mystery Cleared Up". Edited November 29, 2017 by Richard Hocking Accuracy of citation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hume Posted November 28, 2017 Share Posted November 28, 2017 (edited) Here’s another "APPARENT" 13 inch head. As Richard pointed out, we can’t know the "ACTUAL" height of a head without knowing the photographic geometry. Edited November 28, 2017 by Tom Hume Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 11 hours ago, Richard Hocking said: Excellent illustration, Richard. It shows that the person does not necessarily need to stand away from the height chart in order to inflate the head height to 13". However, note that the camera has to be held pretty close to the subject in order to get the steep angles your example shows. If the camera were in its normal position (farther from the height chart), the subject would have to stand away from the chart to get the extra 4" in head height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 7 hours ago, Tom Hume said: Here’s another "APPARENT" 13 inch head. As Richard pointed out, we can’t know the "ACTUAL" height of a head without knowing the photographic geometry. Well maybe I'm wrong. If this is legit, it would indicate that the measuring system used 1) has the camera very close to the subject, and 2) requires the operator of the system to move the camera vertically to the point where the center of the lens is at the height of the subject. How did you find this photo, Tom? I'm surprised Greg Parker never produced one like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Tom Hume said: Here’s another "APPARENT" 13 inch head. As Richard pointed out, we can’t know the "ACTUAL" height of a head without knowing the photographic geometry. Below is another one... a young Paul Newman. Notice that all three of these show a height of 5' 9" and a head height of 13". It seems there must have been a standard or popular mug shot system that made all three. I found this one by googling "13 inch head height mug shot." Mystery solved. Good job Richard and Tom. Edited November 29, 2017 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: Below is another one... a young Paul Newman. Notice that all three of these show a height of 5' 9" and a head height of 13". It seems there must have been a standard or popular mug shot system that made all three. I found this one by googling "13 inch head height mug shot." Mystery solved. Good job Richard and Tom. Thanks Sandy. I had the same reaction when I first noticed the "13 inch head". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej Stancak Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 I have analysed the partial frame with Hughes doorway picture from the composite posted by David to maybe answer the point if Prayer Man could be seen in Hughes film. His presence in Hughes film would be highly relevant as to the question of when did Prayer Man arrive at his spot in the doorway. The picture below is the enlarged part of Hughes frame from David's composite. A faint object of something which potentially could be a human face can be seen in the region above Lovelady's head. The next figure is the same picture after reducing shadows. And the same enhanced picture with contour lines roughly delineating Billy Lovelady, Buell Frazier and what maybe could be a human figure. If there is a human figure there, it would be someone showing his/her profile, and having his/her arm in front of the chest. A small light object in front of the person's face associates a light-reflecting bottom of a bottle held in this person's hand. A phantasy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 19 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: Below is another one... a young Paul Newman. Notice that all three of these show a height of 5' 9" and a head height of 13". It seems there must have been a standard or popular mug shot system that made all three. I found this one by googling "13 inch head height mug shot." Mystery solved. Good job Richard and Tom. Yet if this person stepped back to the wall... his real height is shorter that the 5'10" the photo suggests... As stated, the camera would have to be level with the top of his head to get a true height... this lens is most certainly lower than the top of this person's head. He could be as much as 3 inches shorter once he steps back.... With regards to the crushed out colors suggesting another person... uh.. I don't see it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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