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William Kelly

Oswald Leaving TSBD?

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Just to clarify: I'm not claiming that Prayer Man is Oswald, just that it's one possibility meriting serious consideration.

Where exactly on the first floor did Oswald tell Fritz he was at the time of the shooting? We don't know. Those early interrogation reports are weirdly vague on that score--which is damn odd given that this would surely be the single most important question the suspect in the assassination could have been asked.

Something Billy Lovelady told a reporter several years after the assassination has also stuck with me: on the weekend of the assassination a couple of FBI men paid him a visit to show him the Altgens photo and were mightily relieved that it was him rather than Oswald in the doorway. If Oswald wasn't even claiming to have been out front, why the relief? Why, in other words, would Oswald's being caught in an assassination-time image of the front entrance even have been considered a live possibility?

One thing we do need to be clear on however: if Baker and Truly encountered Oswald by the second-floor lunchroom when and how they said they did, then it's highly unlikely that Prayer Man can be Oswald.

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Just to clarify: I'm not claiming that Prayer Man is Oswald, just that it's one possibility meriting serious consideration.

Where exactly on the first floor did Oswald tell Fritz he was at the time of the shooting? We don't know. Those early interrogation reports are weirdly vague on that score--which is damn odd given that this would surely be the single most important question the suspect in the assassination could have been asked.

Something Billy Lovelady told a reporter several years after the assassination has also stuck with me: on the weekend of the assassination a couple of FBI men paid him a visit to show him the Altgens photo and were mightily relieved that it was him rather than Oswald in the doorway. If Oswald wasn't even claiming to have been out front, why the relief? Why, in other words, would Oswald's being caught in an assassination-time image of the front entrance even have been considered a live possibility?

One thing we do need to be clear on however: if Baker and Truly encountered Oswald by the second-floor lunchroom when and how they said they did, then it's highly unlikely that Prayer Man can be Oswald.

I don't know if its Oswald either, but if that is Baker in the Couch film running to the front door and past this guy at 40 seconds after the last shot, the guy - if it was Oswald, could have turned around, gone up the steps next to the front door, walked through the offices and into the second floor lunchroom vestibule where he was seen by Baker walking past the window in the door. After the encounter with Baker and Truly - cool, calm, not out of breath or hyper as he would have been had he just killed someone, bought the coke and backtracked through the door he entered and into the office where the secretary was, her having just arrived from being out front on the curb. She sees Oswald with the coke and says something about the president being shot, and Oswald mumbling something she didn't hear, and he goes down the steps and out the front door - where the second film picks up and follows him down the steps.

That is a possible scenario, though the guy in the second film appears to have jeans on, not Oswald.

Oswald also had a peculiar t-shirt on under his brown shirt - a t-shirt with a slight v-neck collar.

If the individual frames from these films could be enhanced and it can be determined that the man on the steps has slacks on and not jeans, and a slight v-neck t-shirt - and maybe he even has a coke in his hand, these details could shape the truth.

BK

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Just to clarify: I'm not claiming that Prayer Man is Oswald, just that it's one possibility meriting serious consideration.

Where exactly on the first floor did Oswald tell Fritz he was at the time of the shooting? We don't know. Those early interrogation reports are weirdly vague on that score--which is damn odd given that this would surely be the single most important question the suspect in the assassination could have been asked.

Something Billy Lovelady told a reporter several years after the assassination has also stuck with me: on the weekend of the assassination a couple of FBI men paid him a visit to show him the Altgens photo and were mightily relieved that it was him rather than Oswald in the doorway. If Oswald wasn't even claiming to have been out front, why the relief? Why, in other words, would Oswald's being caught in an assassination-time image of the front entrance even have been considered a live possibility?

One thing we do need to be clear on however: if Baker and Truly encountered Oswald by the second-floor lunchroom when and how they said they did, then it's highly unlikely that Prayer Man can be Oswald.

I don't know if its Oswald either, but if that is Baker in the Couch film running to the front door and past this guy at 40 seconds after the last shot, the guy - if it was Oswald, could have turned around, gone up the steps next to the front door, walked through the offices and into the second floor lunchroom vestibule where he was seen by Baker walking past the window in the door. After the encounter with Baker and Truly - cool, calm, not out of breath or hyper as he would have been had he just killed someone, bought the coke and backtracked through the door he entered and into the office where the secretary was, her having just arrived from being out front on the curb. She sees Oswald with the coke and says something about the president being shot, and Oswald mumbling something she didn't hear, and he goes down the steps and out the front door - where the second film picks up and follows him down the steps.

If Prayer Man is Oswald, then it may perhaps be physically possible for him to make it up to the second floor in time for an encounter with Baker (though he'll have to be mighty fast about it).

The problem is that such a scenario makes no sense:

  • Oswald is out front, standing unnoticed in the shadows...
  • he hears shots...
  • watches the ensuing pandemonium...
  • sees a cop and Mr. Truly rush into the building and...
  • hurries upstairs to buy a coke?

What marks Prayer Man out is precisely how phlegmatic he appears.

In neither Wiegman (i.e. during the shooting) --

8fqHMk9.jpg

--nor Darnell (i.e. seconds after it) --

aFEJIpM.jpg

--does he appear to show the slightest curiosity as to what is happening.

Frozen in shock? Just possibly.

Overtaken by a sudden thirst? Hardly.

Edited by Sean Murphy

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One thing we do need to be clear on however: if Baker and Truly encountered Oswald by the second-floor lunchroom when and how they said they did, then it's highly unlikely that Prayer Man can be Oswald.

You'll have to explain that Sean.

In my scenario outlined earlier, i see no problem with

Prayer Man following Baker and Truly into the building

from where he took the front stairs

while Truly and Baker were taking the rear stairs.

Edited by J. Raymond Carroll

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The problem is that such a scenario makes no sense:

  • Oswald is out front, standing unnoticed in the shadows...
  • he hears shots...
  • We do not know that he hears shots, not everyone there thought they were shots.
  • or, if he did, that he knew they were shots.

It is Nine o'clock in New York, Sean

so it is 2 AM in Dublin.

Get some sleep Sean.

Edited by J. Raymond Carroll

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In this forum thread, once again, we're treated to people using their vivid imaginations to stamp a specific identity on a fuzzy and very indistinct human being seen in a low-quality film/photo.

How in the world can anyone positively say WHO "prayer man" is here? It's impossible.

But when I look at these toggling frames from one of the assassination films, the thing I'm most fascinated by (other than Officer Baker running for the TSBD entrance) is the man in the foreground (wearing the hat). He appears to be tilting his head upward to look at the upper floors of the Depository.

Hmmmm....I wonder why he'd be doing that? Any ideas?

prayermandesh12fps100c4k1m.gif

Edited by David Von Pein

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In this forum thread, once again, we're treated to people using their vivid imaginations to stamp a specific identity on a fuzzy and very indistinct human being seen in a low-quality film/photo.

How in the world can anyone positively say WHO "prayer man" is here? It's impossible.

But when I look at these toggling frames from Mal Couch's film, the thing I'm most fascinated by (other than Officer Baker running for the TSBD entrance) is the man in the foreground (wearing the hat). He appears to be tilting his head upward to look at the upper floors of the Depository.

Hmmmm....I wonder why he'd be doing that? Any ideas?

prayermandesh12fps100c4k1m.gif

Speaking of imagination, Dave, how can you say for sure the man is looking up? It was popular in those days to wear cowboy hats tilted to the back of the head, a la Chuck Connors.

He could very well have been watching Baker run into the TSBD.

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He could very well have been watching Baker run into the TSBD.

Mr.Von Pein is dreaming again,

and Bugliosi ain't here to help!

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Speaking of imagination, Dave, how can you say for sure the man is looking up? It was popular in those days to wear cowboy hats tilted to the back of the head, a la Chuck Connors.

I didn't say "for sure" he is looking up. I said this:

"He appears to be tilting his head upward to look at the upper floors of the Depository."

And that's what it looks like to me. Your mileage may vary, however, in this "Tilting His Head Back vs. Wearing His Cowboy Hat Far Back On His Head a la Chuck Connors" regard.

Edited by David Von Pein

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In this forum thread, once again, we're treated to people using their vivid imaginations to stamp a specific identity on a fuzzy and very indistinct human being seen in a low-quality film/photo.

How in the world can anyone positively say WHO "prayer man" is here? It's impossible.

But when I look at these toggling frames from Mal Couch's film, the thing I'm most fascinated by (other than Officer Baker running for the TSBD entrance) is the man in the foreground (wearing the hat). He appears to be tilting his head upward to look at the upper floors of the Depository.

Hmmmm....I wonder why he'd be doing that? Any ideas?

prayermandesh12fps100c4k1m.gif

David,

I don't agree with you on many things regarding the assassination, but I do agree with you that "Stetson Man" in the foreground does appear to tilt his head back and look up. Good observation. I hadn't noticed that.

--Tommy :sun

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prayermandesh12fps100c4k1m.gif

Frame-From-Wiegman-Film.jpg

I'm wondering if the man wearing the cowboy hat in the bottom photo above (which is a remarkably clear still frame taken from Dave Wiegman's film) is the same man we see in the cowboy hat in the Couch film?

If so, then I think it's safe to say that the man isn't wearing his hat far back on his head at all.

I'd wager to say it is the same man. He's even standing in almost the exact same spot in both images--directly under the round object that juts out from the front of the TSBD facade.

Edited by David Von Pein

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prayermandesh12fps100c4k1m.gif

Frame-From-Wiegman-Film.jpg

I'm wondering if the man wearing the cowboy hat in the bottom photo above (which is a remarkably clear still frame taken from Dave Wiegman's film) is the same man we see in the cowboy hat in the Couch film?

If so, then I think it's safe to say that the man isn't wearing his hat far back on his head at all.

David,

I think it's the same guy. Seems to have light colored pants in both images.

--Tommy :sun

BTW, could that guy in the clip who is getting up from a sitting or crouching position on the far left side of the steps be Billy Lovelady? If so, he moved around quite a bit after the shots ere fired.

Edited by Thomas Graves

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http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQSQzJXWFmIlCC5XRurymAl8269voSnsLUPsAJJLT4sXniHmMa3Nw

If nothing else, Mr. Von Pein has taken our attention away from the man on the stairs.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

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prayermandesh12fps100c4k1m.gif

Frame-From-Wiegman-Film.jpg

I'm wondering if the man wearing the cowboy hat in the bottom photo above (which is a remarkably clear still frame taken from Dave Wiegman's film) is the same man we see in the cowboy hat in the Couch film?

If so, then I think it's safe to say that the man isn't wearing his hat far back on his head at all.

David,

I think it's the same guy. Seems to have light colored pants in both images.

--Tommy :sun

BTW, could that guy in the clip who is getting up from a sitting or crouching position on the far left side of the steps be Billy Lovelady? If so, he moved around quite a bit after the shots were fired.

bump

Edited by Thomas Graves

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I suspect the man in the film is Lovelady. Baker was at the front steps within what? 20 seconds of the shooting? There's no reason to believe Lovelady had left the stairs by then.

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