Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Pat Speer]

Hey Pat, I think you may be right about Goldberg writing the chapter on dispelling rumors, but are you sure he's the brother of the Supreme Court Justice? That makes me wonder if he is also related to the Dallas attorney LBJ called from AF1?

From the nature of the question asked, it seems like they were trying to dispel a rumor that there was someone else in the lunchroom at the time. Goldberg is credited as co-author of the Warren Report so he must have had more of a hand in writing more than just the rumors chapter.

And Winnacker was not a Nazi, as I suggested, but was OSS, as was the Supreme Court Justice Goldberg.

I was wrong, Bill. The Goldbergs weren't brothers. Arthur was born in 1908 and was the youngest of 8. Alfred worked as a military historian until 2007. Somehow I doubt he was working past 100.

It seems obvious, moreover, that Alfred was a much younger man.

[Steve Mcdonagh]

Hi Richard

“Bill feels that the traditional Lunch Room story accepted by both the WC and the Critical Community is strong enough to stand on its own to vindicate Lee Oswald.”

• Yes I get that part but obviously in official circles it doesn't otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Furthermore if it could or was ever likely to ‘stand on its own to vindicate Lee Oswald” we still wouldn’t be having this conversation.

“I think there is another option. We cannot exclude the possibility of Prayer Man/Oswald going up to the second floor after Truly and Baker had passed through the Lobby. And perhaps after Campbell had ascended the Lobby stairs to the 2nd floor (to vindicate the sighting by the storage closet). Getting Oswald from the 6th floor to the lunch room in time to see Baker is problematic. Getting Oswald from the front lobby to the 2nd floor is not”

• Whilst it is true that the second floor lunchroom encounter cannot be discounted it is also true that both lunchroom encounters cannot coexist. Therefore one or the other has to be in error or even an error that led to a fabrication?

“We know a group of employees went up to the 2nd floor offices right after the assassination. It is entirely possible LHO also decided to go. We have no evidence that precludes this possibility. Could he have made it all the way to the lunch room? Possibly.”

• There are many things that could have happened and some are indeed possible but by all accounts the Baker/Oswald (+Truly) encounter did not involve a group merely these three. So common sense dictates (just like common sense would dictate if someone is going to take the time to hide a gun they would also take the time pick up the shells) that the incident happened before a group ascended on the second floor otherwise there would have been many more accounts of the event.

“A simple sighting of Oswald on the 2nd floor would give strength to any lunch room story, whether it happened as advertised by the WC or was simply a last resort fabrication by the conspirators to get LHO as close to the NW stairs as possible.”

• And this is why I assume this encounter is important to the FBI/DPD but not for reasons of potentially exonerating Oswald but because they needed to put him closer to the sixth floor.

At the end of the day in my opinion there is one fundamental problem with the Baker sees Oswald on the second floor story and that is that Truly did not see him. Truly (according to reports) led this charge of the light brigade up the stairs but he didn’t see or hear anything that alerted his attention to the second floor lunchroom and the question is why?

Are we really to believe that he was fearlessly so far ahead of the gun toting Baker in search of the big bad guys that had just shot JFK that he didn’t see or hear anything when he passed the door thus allowing Oswald and opportunity to slip past the door but unfortunately for him just in time for Baker to see him? Then we have the body popping Oswald sitting, standing and leaning against the table, the counter and the coke machine.

I am sorry but it’s just too much of a pill to swallow. I think Sean is onto something when he says it likely happened on the first floor and the reason Truly didn’t see Oswald through any door before Baker was probably because he hadn’t caught up with Bakers 0-60 in 3.2 seconds dash to the front door vestibule yet. Maybe he should have worn his Nike’s?

Regards - Steve

Steve,

you appear to have inferred content in my post that was neither there, nor implied.

• At no point did I say a group of people entered the Lunch Room. That is an element you introduced.

• You also introduced "both lunchroom encounters" ?? I am aware of only one alleged encounter in the Lunch Room.

• Likewise your last two paragraphs also appear to be taking me to task for items that were not in my post. Were these directed at me?

Just to clarify, my original post had one main idea: Prayer Man/Oswald may have gone up to the second floor. If he did go up to the second floor, it is possible he may have been seen in the vicinity of the Lunch Room.

[...]

...Sean is trying to lay the foundation for the second floor lunchroom encounter never happening at all...

[...]

Bill makes a good point when he says “it would be physically impossible for Truly not to see Oswald if he was going through the lunchroom door”

Steve,

A fact that has to be taken into consideration when critiquing the Lunch Room Encounter Story is that, in the story, Baker obviously had to let Oswald get away.

Sean is trying to show that the lunch room encounter story, although flawed, was sufficiently plausible for the task at hand, which was to place Oswald significantly closer to the sniper's nest than the front steps, and to let him "get away" in a manner that was believable and therefore not bound to scandalize the Dallas Police Department.

Truly's telling Baker that Oswald was a TSBD employee didn't exactly exonerate Oswald, but it did lower his "suspect status" so that, given the urgency of the situation, Baker could let him go. This seemed to be a reasonable thing to do, especially since the alleged encounter puts Oswald a full six floors below the place where Baker thought the shots had come from, and because Oswald appeared to be cool, calm, and collected.

Although a Lunch Room Encounter Story was necessary in order to not only put Oswald reasonably close to the sniper's nest but also in a place that was a secluded part of the building where such a private encounter could realistically "happen", and although Baker had to let Oswald "get away," it would have been unrealistic for the fabricators to say,

"Baker encountered Oswald in the lunch room and strongly suspected him of killing JFK, but decided to let him go"

or

"Baker encountered Oswald in the lunch room but didn't suspect Oswald because he didn't notice that he was breathing heavily and sweating profusely."

or my favorite

"Baker encountered Oswald in the lunch room and was trying to arrest him, but Oswald got away."

The story they decided upon was much better than the ones above:

"Baker encountered Oswald in the 2nd floor lunch room, which is not far from the north west stairs. Due to the fact that Oswald appeared normal and that Baker was told (by the accompanying) superintendent of the building that Oswald was an employee, Baker decided to let Oswald go so that Baker could continue on his way up to the roof to look for the sniper."

Given the circumstances, it would have been unprofessional of Baker to arrest a cool, calm, and collected male TSBD employee for simply being in the 2nd floor lunch room by himself at the time (if indeed that's where Oswald was). In the story, if Baker had arrested Oswald in the lunch room, I suppose he could have handcuffed him to a drain pipe or something, but Baker still had the roof to search.

In the story, Baker makes the rational decision to let Oswald go because Oswald is only a low-level suspect and because Baker has much more urgent things to do.

In short, The Lunch Room Encounter Story was very well done. It placed Oswald closer to the sniper's nest and let him get away, plausibly.

--Tommy

edited and bumped

Tom

I have edited my post because I felt my response was a little too curt and on reflection I would like it to be more considerate to your views and opinions.

Thanks for your reply above.

Kind regards - Steve

Edited September 29, 2013 by Steve Mcdonagh

[Steve Mcdonagh]

Hi Richard

“Bill feels that the traditional Lunch Room story accepted by both the WC and the Critical Community is strong enough to stand on its own to vindicate Lee Oswald.”

• Yes I get that part but obviously in official circles it doesn't otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Furthermore if it could or was ever likely to ‘stand on its own to vindicate Lee Oswald” we still wouldn’t be having this conversation.

“I think there is another option. We cannot exclude the possibility of Prayer Man/Oswald going up to the second floor after Truly and Baker had passed through the Lobby. And perhaps after Campbell had ascended the Lobby stairs to the 2nd floor (to vindicate the sighting by the storage closet). Getting Oswald from the 6th floor to the lunch room in time to see Baker is problematic. Getting Oswald from the front lobby to the 2nd floor is not”

• Whilst it is true that the second floor lunchroom encounter cannot be discounted it is also true that both lunchroom encounters cannot coexist. Therefore one or the other has to be in error or even an error that led to a fabrication?

“We know a group of employees went up to the 2nd floor offices right after the assassination. It is entirely possible LHO also decided to go. We have no evidence that precludes this possibility. Could he have made it all the way to the lunch room? Possibly.”

• There are many things that could have happened and some are indeed possible but by all accounts the Baker/Oswald (+Truly) encounter did not involve a group merely these three. So common sense dictates (just like common sense would dictate if someone is going to take the time to hide a gun they would also take the time pick up the shells) that the incident happened before a group ascended on the second floor otherwise there would have been many more accounts of the event.

“A simple sighting of Oswald on the 2nd floor would give strength to any lunch room story, whether it happened as advertised by the WC or was simply a last resort fabrication by the conspirators to get LHO as close to the NW stairs as possible.”

• And this is why I assume this encounter is important to the FBI/DPD but not for reasons of potentially exonerating Oswald but because they needed to put him closer to the sixth floor.

At the end of the day in my opinion there is one fundamental problem with the Baker sees Oswald on the second floor story and that is that Truly did not see him. Truly (according to reports) led this charge of the light brigade up the stairs but he didn’t see or hear anything that alerted his attention to the second floor lunchroom and the question is why?

Are we really to believe that he was fearlessly so far ahead of the gun toting Baker in search of the big bad guys that had just shot JFK that he didn’t see or hear anything when he passed the door thus allowing Oswald and opportunity to slip past the door but unfortunately for him just in time for Baker to see him? Then we have the body popping Oswald sitting, standing and leaning against the table, the counter and the coke machine.

I am sorry but it’s just too much of a pill to swallow. I think Sean is onto something when he says it likely happened on the first floor and the reason Truly didn’t see Oswald through any door before Baker was probably because he hadn’t caught up with Bakers 0-60 in 3.2 seconds dash to the front door vestibule yet. Maybe he should have worn his Nike’s?

Regards - Steve

Steve,

you appear to have inferred content in my post that was neither there, nor implied.

• At no point did I say a group of people entered the Lunch Room. That is an element you introduced.

• You also introduced "both lunchroom encounters" ?? I am aware of only one alleged encounter in the Lunch Room.

• Likewise your last two paragraphs also appear to be taking me to task for items that were not in my post. Were these directed at me?

Just to clarify, my original post had one main idea: Prayer Man/Oswald may have gone up to the second floor. If he did go up to the second floor, it is possible he may have been seen in the vicinity of the Lunch Room.

My replies in purple - RH

Hi Richard

Actually I am not taking you personally to task on any issue, so I am sorry if you perceived that from my response as it was not my intention. I was merely commenting that both encounters cannot coexist and it has to be one or the other.

I still do not know what you mean by "both encounters" ... ? RH

Your comments did however seem to imply there was another option but actually it appears to be just another way of describing a possible second floor encounter which is fine if your hold sway to that event happening. As for the group of people going up the stairs shortly after the assassination and LHO potentially doing the same, well of course this is possible, but again it seems to be just another explanation of how Oswald gets to the second floor lunchroom encounter?

I am not "endorsing" a 2nd floor encounter. I am saying that Oswald may have been seen on the 2nd floor (perhaps in the vicinity of the Lunch Room). There is a difference.

In piecing together Oswald's movements after the shooting, I don't think we should assume he never went to the 2nd floor. RH

Don’t get me wrong I understand you want to explore all possibilities and I respect that (after all I have read all 60+ pages) but Sean is trying to lay the foundation for the second floor lunchroom encounter never happening at all and ironically with every anomaly you guys raise with the second floor encounter you are indirectly helping him to lay it.

Exploring all the possibilities will hopefully lead to the most accurate explanation of what happened. As I have said several times in this thread, Sean is doing a remarkable job. For the most part, I believe he is spot on. There are however, a few points in his narrative where I think alternative possibilities exist. RH

I am no expert like some of you and I don’t pretend to be, but if the encounter did not take place on the second floor, then logically wouldn’t this explain why much of it doesn’t make sense? Bill makes a good point when he says “it would be physically impossible for Truly not to see Oswald if he was going through the lunchroom door” and I not only agree with this point but I believe it to be a perfect example that if you can’t make the second floor encounter work after fifty years then surely there is something fundamentally wrong with it? What if the second floor lunchroom encounter (SFLE) anomalies are in fact errors because there was no second floor lunchroom encounter?

As far as I know nearly every single piece of the JKF case has been argued a thousand times or more; but I have personally never heard anyone argue this point before.

The recent introduction of Prayer Man into the mix has stirred things up a bit. As I said in another thread, early researchers did an outstanding job, but they did not have this information on Prayer Man available to them. RH

Regards – Steve

PS: For what it’s worth Richard I think you have been doing a good job in this thread and have made some excellent points.

Thanks, Steve

Hi Richard

As with Tom above I have edited my post because I felt my response was also a little too curt and after re-reading your post (above) I feel I have a better understanding of your points. Thank you for your patience.

Kind regards - Steve

Edited September 29, 2013 by Steve Mcdonagh

[Robert Prudhomme]

However, in his affidavit of 22/11/63, he makes no mention of going to the railroad yard.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/13/1339-001.gif

In his affidavit, he runs across the street to the corner of the park, hears the news about JFK from Gloria Calvery, goes back inside the TSBD, phones his wife and then stands guard at the elevators; staying there until he accompanies the police to the upper floors and leaves Jack Dougherty in charge of the elevators.

Exactly, Robert.

That's why I asked several pages ago why Shelley had lied or had had a memory lapse (in his affidavit).

--Tommy

There is just the slimmest of chances Shelley was attempting to be brief in his affidavit. When he said he went back to the building after running across the street and hearing the news about JFK, the unspoken trip to the railroad yard may have been included.

However, this seems unlikely, especially considering the testimony given by Vicki Adams. She corroborates Shelley's affidavit when she sees him at the elevators, yet she brings serious doubt upon his testimony about his trip to the railroad yard as she testified to leaving the fourth floor, at a run, immediately after the last shot. She would have arrived at the 1st floor within a minute and there is no way Shelley could have made it to the railroad yard and back to be there ahead of her.

She must have indeed been very fast. She was on the stairway ahead of Oswald, and so far ahead of him, she did not even hear him on the noisy stairs above her. And, she was on the 1st floor before Truly and Baker arrived.

There are a few problems, though. Shelley is already at the elevators when Miss Adams arrives at the 1st floor, yet, according to Shelley's affidavit, he has had time to run out to the concrete island, return to the TSBD and phone his wife before arriving at the elevators. His testimony tells us he was assigned, by Truly, to guard the elevators, yet he is already guarding the elevators when Miss Adams sees him, well before the arrival of Baker/Truly.

The real kicker here is that Miss Adams testifies to going to the railroad yard, as well, and then returning to the TSBD. Upon arriving at the TSBD, she goes to the front of the building and listens to a two-way police radio on a lone police motorcycle parked in front of the building, which can only be Baker's. To get an understanding of the impossibility of Miss Adams seeing Baker's motorcycle, read this excerpt from Baker's testimony:

"Mr. BELIN - Do you remember about how long you stayed on the roof?

Mr. BAKER - It was a little over 5 minutes.

Mr. BELIN - When you continued moving on the elevator after you talked to Inspector Sawyer how far did you go on the elevator?

Mr. BAKER - We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there.

Mr. BELIN - All right. You got off the elevator then?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him?

Mr. BAKER - I left Mr. Truly there.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER - I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade."

If Miss Adams was as slow to descend from the 4th floor as many defenders of the WC would have us believe, and for her to arrive on the 1st floor and see Shelley guarding the elevators AFTER truly had ordered him to do so, she would have arrived back from the railroad yard so late that Baker and his motorcycle would have been long gone, following the motorcade to Parkland.

None of the testimonies of Baker, Shelley and Adams support each other.

Edited September 29, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[William Kelly]

However, in his affidavit of 22/11/63, he makes no mention of going to the railroad yard.

http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/13/1339-001.gif

In his affidavit, he runs across the street to the corner of the park, hears the news about JFK from Gloria Calvery, goes back inside the TSBD, phones his wife and then stands guard at the elevators; staying there until he accompanies the police to the upper floors and leaves Jack Dougherty in charge of the elevators.

Exactly, Robert.

That's why I asked several pages ago why Shelley had lied or had had a memory lapse (in his affidavit).

--Tommy

There is just the slimmest of chances Shelley was attempting to be brief in his affidavit. When he said he went back to the building after running across the street and hearing the news about JFK, the unspoken trip to the railroad yard may have been included.

FYI: THE RAILROAD YARD IS RIGHT OUTSIDE THE DOOR - IT ISN'T ANY DISTANCE AT ALL. IN FACT THE TSBD EXECUTIVES HAD TO WALK ACROSS THE TRACKS TO GET TO THEIR PARKING LOT, AS DID OSWALD AND FRAZIER WHEN THEY ARRIVED AND HAD TO WALK 600 YARDS - TWO FOOTBALL FIELDS ACROSS RAILROAD TRACKS THAT FRAZIER SAID WERE IN USE, SO YOU HAD TO BE CAREFUL. SO IF SHELLEY AND LOVELADY CAME IN THE SIDE DOOR - AS THEY SAID THEY DID - THEN THEY JUST WALKED FROM THE FRONT OF THE BUILDING TO THE BACK.

However, this seems unlikely, especially considering the testimony given by Vicki Adams. She corroborates Shelley's affidavit when she sees him at the elevators, yet she brings serious doubt upon his testimony about his trip to the railroad yard as she testified to leaving the fourth floor, at a run, immediately after the last shot. She would have arrived at the 1st floor within a minute and there is no way Shelley could have made it to the railroad yard and back to be there ahead of her.

She must have indeed been very fast. She was on the stairway ahead of Oswald, and so far ahead of him, she did not even hear him on the noisy stairs above her. And, she was on the 1st floor before Truly and Baker arrived.

WAIT A MINUTE - FIRST OFF - IT HAS BEEN REASONABLY DETERMINED THAT OSWALD NEVER USED THAT STAIRWAY, BUT INSTEAD ENTERED THE SECOND FLOOR LUNCHOOM FROM THE FIRST FLOOR OFFICES.

SO THE ANSWER TO MY QUESTION IS THAT VICKI ADAMS AND FRIEND CAME DOWN THE STEPS BEFORE BAKER AND TRULY WENT UP. THAT SAYS A LOT.

There are a few problems, though. Shelley is already at the elevators when Miss Adams arrives at the 1st floor, yet, according to Shelley's affidavit, he has had time to run out to the concrete island, return to the TSBD and phone his wife before arriving at the elevators. His testimony tells us he was assigned, by Truly, to guard the elevators, yet he is already guarding the elevators when Miss Adams sees him, well before the arrival of Baker/Truly.

The real kicker here is that Miss Adams testifies to going to the railroad yard, as well, and then returning to the TSBD. Upon arriving at the TSBD, she goes to the front of the building and listens to a two-way police radio on a lone police motorcycle parked in front of the building, which can only be Baker's. To get an understanding of the impossibility of Miss Adams seeing Baker's motorcycle, read this excerpt from Baker's testimony:

"Mr. BELIN - Do you remember about how long you stayed on the roof?

Mr. BAKER - It was a little over 5 minutes.

Mr. BELIN - When you continued moving on the elevator after you talked to Inspector Sawyer how far did you go on the elevator?

Mr. BAKER - We went to the, I believe it would be the first floor there.

Mr. BELIN - All right. You got off the elevator then?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Did you leave Mr. Truly or did you stay with him?

Mr. BAKER - I left Mr. Truly there.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Mr. BAKER - I immediately went on out. I was with this motorcade and I went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade."

If Miss Adams was as slow to descend from the 4th floor as many defenders of the WC would have us believe, and for her to arrive on the 1st floor and see Shelley guarding the elevators AFTER truly had ordered him to do so, she would have arrived back from the railroad yard so late that Baker and his motorcycle would have been long gone, following the motorcade to Parkland.

None of the testimonies of Baker, Shelley and Adams support each other.

BUT WE STILL HAVE TO FIGURE IT OUT FOR OURSELVES.

SHELLY WAS THERE WHEN ADAMS CAME DOWN THE STEPS AND THEN TRULY TELLS SHELLEY TO GUARD THE ELEVATORS

WHATS WRONG WITH THAT?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Precisely. The conundrum of conundrums.

P.S. Six hundred yards would actually be six football fields, not two.

Edited September 30, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

double post

Edited September 30, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

[...]

For Bill and Robert:

--Tommy

Merci beaucoup.

[William Kelly]

Yes, six hundred feet - two hundred yards - two football fields is the distance between where Frazier parked his car in the employees parking and the TSBD, which is far to the left and not included in the aerial photo Tommy posted above.

This photo does clearly show the executive parking lot behind the Knoll and the rail road tracks, some of which were out of service but still had to be stepped over to get to both parking lots.

The point being if you went out the side door facing west you would in the rail yard, as you can see from the photo the train tracks at one time ran right up to the TSBD loading dock.

Edited September 30, 2013 by William Kelly

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

double post

My original point was that Shelley evidently suffered a serious memory lapse in his affidavit, because in the Malcolm Couch film he and Lovelady are not at, or running to, the "corner of the park," but apparently walking (and then running) down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot right at the same time that Baker is running into the TSBD.

--Tommy

Edited September 30, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

But, Shelley and Lovelady left from the front steps of the TSBD, stopped at the concrete island to listen to Gloria Calvery (in one of his versions) and proceeded down the deadend Elm St. to the railroad yard (also in one version of his story).

This was not a quick duck out the back door for a look see and right back inside.

"Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end."

Notice Mr. Shelley testified that he and Lovelady WALKED on down to the first railroad track. How long do you think it took Shelley to get to the elevators?

[William Kelly]

But, Shelley and Lovelady left from the front steps of the TSBD, stopped at the concrete island to listen to Gloria Calvery (in one of his versions) and proceeded down the deadend Elm St. to the railroad yard (also in one version of his story).

This was not a quick duck out the back door for a look see and right back inside.

"Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end."

Notice Mr. Shelley testified that he and Lovelady WALKED on down to the first railroad track. How long do you think it took Shelley to get to the elevators?

So they are out front - they run down Elm, a small side street that ends at the end of the building where the rail road yard begins. They stand at the end of Elm, which is also the end of the TSBD building's west side and they walk along the loading docks there and enter the building from the west side entrance. No long hike, just a waltz around the building on the outside.

Once inside they stand by the elevators as the secretaries come down the steps and see them standing there. Then Baker and Truly show up and tell Shelley to guard the elevators - which are on the fifth floor.

Baker and Truly then proceed up the steps.

[Robert Prudhomme]

But, Shelley and Lovelady left from the front steps of the TSBD, stopped at the concrete island to listen to Gloria Calvery (in one of his versions) and proceeded down the deadend Elm St. to the railroad yard (also in one version of his story).

This was not a quick duck out the back door for a look see and right back inside.

"Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end."

Notice Mr. Shelley testified that he and Lovelady WALKED on down to the first railroad track. How long do you think it took Shelley to get to the elevators?

So they are out front - they run down Elm, a small side street that ends at the end of the building where the rail road yard begins. They stand at the end of Elm, which is also the end of the TSBD building's west side and they walk along the loading docks there and enter the building from the west side entrance. No long hike, just a waltz around the building on the outside.

Once inside they stand by the elevators as the secretaries come down the steps and see them standing there. Then Baker and Truly show up and tell Shelley to guard the elevators - which are on the fifth floor.

Baker and Truly then proceed up the steps.

Bill, read the testimony again. Did Shelley say he ran down Elm St.? No, he testified they WALKED down Elm St. Big difference. He also testified that they STOOD there for a while and watched them search cars in the parking lot.

Not only is the distance Shelley covered from the front steps of the TSBD to the railroad track and back to the loading dock greater than the distance Victoria Adams covered from the 4th to the 1st floor by at least a factor of four (if not five or six - see the photo Thomas provided), he seems to be taking his sweet time; stopping to talk to Gloria Calvery and watching cars being searched. Victoria Adams, on the other hand, left the 4th floor within seconds of the last shot and went down to the 1st floor as rapidly as she could.

She obviously was at the 1st floor before Baker and Truly got to the elevators and, from Shelley's testimony, it is hard to understand how Truly could have given Shelley orders to guard the elevator. Truly would have been on his way upstairs before Shelley made it back to the building.

[Thomas Graves]

But, Shelley and Lovelady left from the front steps of the TSBD, stopped at the concrete island to listen to Gloria Calvery (in one of his versions) and proceeded down the deadend Elm St. to the railroad yard (also in one version of his story).

This was not a quick duck out the back door for a look see and right back inside.

"Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end."

Notice Mr. Shelley testified that he and Lovelady WALKED on down to the first railroad track. How long do you think it took Shelley to get to the elevators?

So they are out front - they run down Elm, a small side street that ends at the end of the building where the rail road yard begins. They stand at the end of Elm, which is also the end of the TSBD building's west side and they walk along the loading docks there and enter the building from the west side entrance. No long hike, just a waltz around the building on the outside.

Once inside they stand by the elevators as the secretaries come down the steps and see them standing there. Then Baker and Truly show up and tell Shelley to guard the elevators - which are on the fifth floor.

Baker and Truly then proceed up the steps.

My original point was that Shelley evidently suffered a serious memory lapse in his affidavit as well as some other testimony. In the Malcolm Couch film he and Lovelady are not "at" or "on," or running "to" the "corner of the park" or "the island" at the same time that Baker is running into the TSBD. They are walking (and then running) down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot, instead.

--Tommy

Edited September 30, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

But, Shelley and Lovelady left from the front steps of the TSBD, stopped at the concrete island to listen to Gloria Calvery (in one of his versions) and proceeded down the deadend Elm St. to the railroad yard (also in one version of his story).

This was not a quick duck out the back door for a look see and right back inside.

"Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end."

Notice Mr. Shelley testified that he and Lovelady WALKED on down to the first railroad track. How long do you think it took Shelley to get to the elevators?

So they are out front - they run down Elm, a small side street that ends at the end of the building where the rail road yard begins. They stand at the end of Elm, which is also the end of the TSBD building's west side and they walk along the loading docks there and enter the building from the west side entrance. No long hike, just a waltz around the building on the outside.

Once inside they stand by the elevators as the secretaries come down the steps and see them standing there. Then Baker and Truly show up and tell Shelley to guard the elevators - which are on the fifth floor.

Baker and Truly then proceed up the steps.

My original point was that Shelley evidently suffered a serious memory lapse in his affidavit and some other testimony, because in the Malcolm Couch film he and Lovelady are not "at" or "on," or running "to" the "corner of the park" or "the island," but are walking (and then running) down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot at the same time that Baker is running into the TSBD.

--Tommy

Exactly, Thomas. Unless Truly waited around the elevators on the 1st floor for Shelley to return, how was he able to give him orders to guard the elevators? Did he shout the orders down the elevator shaft from the 5th floor?

It is entirely possible that Truly gave orders to Shelley AFTER he and Baker returned to the 1st floor from the roof.

Speaking of memory lapses, Shelley's first day affidavit mentions nothing of the walk to the parking lot, has Gloria Calvery running up to the steps to share the news, has Shelley going immediately inside (presumably by the front entrance) and has Shelley phoning his wife (I thought the phones were out?) and telling her about the assassination, all BEFORE heading to the elevators.

As I said, Mr. Truly must have been a VERY patient man.

P.S. Just for emphasis:

"Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes."

Edited September 30, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme