Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Thomas Graves]

But, Shelley and Lovelady left from the front steps of the TSBD, stopped at the concrete island to listen to Gloria Calvery (in one of his versions) and proceeded down the deadend Elm St. to the railroad yard (also in one version of his story).

This was not a quick duck out the back door for a look see and right back inside.

"Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end."

Notice Mr. Shelley testified that he and Lovelady WALKED on down to the first railroad track. How long do you think it took Shelley to get to the elevators?

So they are out front - they run down Elm, a small side street that ends at the end of the building where the rail road yard begins. They stand at the end of Elm, which is also the end of the TSBD building's west side and they walk along the loading docks there and enter the building from the west side entrance. No long hike, just a waltz around the building on the outside.

Once inside they stand by the elevators as the secretaries come down the steps and see them standing there. Then Baker and Truly show up and tell Shelley to guard the elevators - which are on the fifth floor.

Baker and Truly then proceed up the steps.

My original point was that Shelley evidently suffered a serious memory lapse in his affidavit and some other testimony, because in the Malcolm Couch film he and Lovelady are not "at" or "on," or running "to" the "corner of the park" or "the island," but are walking (and then running) down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot at the same time that Baker is running into the TSBD.

--Tommy

Exactly, Thomas. Unless Truly waited around the elevators on the 1st floor for Shelley to return, how was he able to give him orders to guard the elevators? Did he shout the orders down the elevator shaft from the 5th floor?

It is entirely possible that Truly gave orders to Shelley AFTER he and Baker returned to the 1st floor from the roof.

Speaking of memory lapses, Shelley's first day affidavit mentions nothing of the walk to the parking lot, has Gloria Calvery running up to the steps to share the news, has Shelley going immediately inside (presumably by the front entrance) and has Shelley phoning his wife (I thought the phones were out?) and telling her about the assassination, all BEFORE heading to the elevators.

As I said, Mr. Truly must have been a VERY patient man.

P.S. Just for emphasis:

"Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes."

Robert,

Malcolm Couch's WC testimony gives us a good idea how soon after the final shot Shelley and Lovelady were walking down the Elm Street Extension in the direction of the railway yard / parking lot.

[...]

Mr. BELIN - Do you remember where you vehicle was by the time you heard the third shot?

Mr. COUCH - I would say we were about 50 feet from making - or maybe 60 feet - from making the left-hand turn onto Elm.

Mr. BELIN - Did you hear more than three shots?

Mr. COUCH - No.

Mr. BELIN - Had you heard any noises, what you'd describe like a motorcycle backfiring or firecrackers, prior to the time that you made your turn north on Houston?

Mr. COUCH - Well, way uptown on Main Street, a motorcycle did backfire right behind us - and we all jumped and had a good laugh over it. And the three shots sounded, at first - the impression was that this was another motorcycle backfiring.

Mr. BELIN - Now, between the first and the second shots, is there anything else you can remember doing or you remember hearing or seeing that you haven't related here at this time?

Mr. COUCH - Nothing unusual between the shots. Uh - as I say, the first shot, I had no particular impression; but the second shot, I remember turning - several of us turning - and looking ahead of us. It was unusual for a motorcycle to backfire that close together, it seemed like. And after the third shot, Bob Jackson who was as I recall, on my right, yelled something like, "Look up in the window! There's the rifle!" And I remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor. And seeing about a foot of a rifle being - the barrel brought into the window. I saw no one in the window - just a quick 1-second glance at the barrel.

Mr. BELIN - What building was that?

Mr. COUCH - This was the Texas Book Depository Building.

Mr. BELIN - At the corner of Houston and Elm in Dallas?

Mr. COUCH - That's right.

Mr. BELIN - You said it was the sixth or the seventh floor. Do you know how many floors there are in that building - or did you know at the time?

Mr. COUCH - No; I didn't know at the time.

Mr. BELIN - Did it look like to you he was on the top floor or next to the top floor or the second to the top floor - or -

Mr. COUCH - It looked like it was the top. And when you first glance at the building, your thrown off a little as to the floors because there's a ridge - uh, it almost looks like a structured added onto the top of the building, about one story above. So you have to recount. Of course, at the time, I wasn't counting, but -

Mr. BELIN - You just remember to the best of your recollection, that it was either the sixth or the seventh floor?

Mr. COUCH - That's right.

Mr. BELIN - And when you say, "the far right" -

Mr. COUCH - That would be the far east.

Mr. BELIN - The far east of what side of the building?

Mr. COUCH - The south side of the building.

Mr. BELIN - Do you remember whether or not that window at which you saw the rifle, you say, being withdrawn - first of all, could you tell it was a rifle?

Mr. COUCH - Yes, I'd say you could. Uh - if a person was just standing on the - as much as I saw, if the factors that did happen, did not happen, you might not say that it was a rifle. In other words, if you just saw an object being pulled back into a window, you might not think anything of it. But with the excitement intense right after that third shot and what Bob yelled, my impression was that it was a rifle.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see anything more than the steel barrel of a rifle?

Mr. COUCH - No.

Mr. BELIN - Could you tell whether or not the rifle had any telescopic sight on it?

Mr. COUCH - No.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see any of the stock of the rifle?

Mr. COUCH - No.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see any person pulling in the rifle?

Mr. COUCH - No.

Mr. BELIN - Do you remember whether or not, if you can remember, the window was open or halfway open or what?

Mr. COUCH - It was open. To say that it was half or three-quarters open. I wouldn't say. My impression was that it was all the way open - but that was an impression.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see anything else in the window that you remember - any boxes or anything like that.

Mr. COUCH - No; I didn't

Mr. BELIN - You didn't notice whether there was or was not - or do you definitely remember that you did not notice any.

Mr. COUCH - No; I didn't notice anything.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see any other people in any other window in the building?

Mr. COUCH - Yes; I recall seeing - uh - some people standing in some of the other windows - about, roughly, third or fourth floor in the middle of the south side. I recall one - it looked like a negro boy with a white T-shirt leaning out one of those windows looking up - up to the windows above him.

Mr. BELIN - Uh-huh. Is there anything else you can remember about the building?

Mr. COUCH - No; that's just about the only impression I had at the moment.

Mr. BELIN - Now, you related what you heard Bob Jackson Say. Did anyone else say anything in the car?

Mr. COUCH - No one else said anything, that I recall, about a rifle or anything.

Mr. BELIN - Where was the car when you saw the rifle being withdrawn?

Mr. COUCH - I'd say about 25 feet before we made the turn onto Elm. Our car was facing the south side of the building.

Mr. BELIN - All right. Then what happened after Bob Jackson made his exclamation and you saw what you just related?

Mr. COUCH - Well, I picked up my camera. As I recall, I had it in my hand, but it was down leaning against my legs. And I picked it up and made a quick glance at a setting and raised it to my eye. And - uh - you can see from my film that we were just turning the corner. We start the turn and we turn the corner, and you can see people running. As I recall, there's a quick glance at the front entrance of the Texas Depository Book Building. You can see people running and you can see about the first three cars, maybe four, in front of me as we complete the turn. And then I took pictures of - uh -a few people on my left and a group, or a sweeping, of the crowd on my right standing on the corner.

Mr. BELIN - Did you take any pictures of the School Book Depository Building itself?

Mr. COUCH - Not of the south side at the moment.

After we went, say, 50 to 75 feet on down elm, uh - we began to hang on because the driver picked up speed. We got down under the - I think there's three trestles there, three crossings underneath the - uh - at the very bottom of Elm Street -

Mr. BELIN - Is that what they call the triple-underpass?

Mr. COUCH - Right.

And - uh - I think, as I recall, right after we made the turn on Elm, one or two of the fellows jumped out. But after we got all the way down underneath the three trestles we finally persuaded the driver - who wasn't to anxious to stop - to stop and - uh - we all jumped out. And I ran, I guess it was about 75 yards or a little more back up to the School Depository Building and took some sweeping pictures of the crowd standing around. I didn't stay there long.

Mr. BELIN - Did you take any pictures of the Depository Building entrance?

Mr. COUCH - No - Uh -

Mr. BELIN - When you came back up there?

Mr. COUCH - Not with determination. I cannot recall at this moment whether some of my pictures I took when I ran back might have been a sweeping shot of the entrance through a wide angle lens. But not with determination. I didn't plan to take pictures of it.

Mr. BELIN - Would these shots - these wide angle lens shots, if anyone were standing in front of the building or leaving the building at that time, would you be able to identify them, or would they be to far away?

Mr. COUCH - They would be to far away. Possibly if the frames were blown up, one might determine if someone was standing there - identify someone.

Mr. BELIN - About how many minutes after the last shot would you say you came back to take these pictures?

Mr. COUCH - Well, I'd say it took me - uh - maybe a minute and a half to get back to there after this third shot - because we weren't but seconds getting down underneath that underpass after we made the turn.

Mr. BELIN - Uh-huh.

Mr. COUCH - And - uh - I jumped out and ran back. So I'd say not over a minute and a half.

Mr. BELIN - And then you started taking general sweeping shots of the area?

Mr. COUCH - Right.

Mr. BELIN - Were most of the shots directed at people along the side there as to what their reactions were, or were most of the shots directed at the School Book Depository Building?

Mr. COUCH - Mostly of the people standing around, the policemen and shots such as this.

Mr. BELIN - In what direction, generally, would the camera have been pointed, and where would you have been standing when you took these pictures?

Mr. COUCH - Some of the pictures, I remember, the camera was pointed south - because I was standing on the little knoll which is just at the foot and west of the Depository Building, where the little park area begins. There's a sidewalk that runs between the Book Depository property, I would assume and the park. And I was standing on that little sidewalk.

Mr. BELIN - And your camera was pointing south?

Mr. COUCH - Pointing south. That's right. Now after I had taken I don't know how many feet of film of people standing around, I - uh -we - I think there was one or two other fellows with me and who they were, now, I can't remember; they were photographers - we stopped a car that was going by with a boy in it - a young boy of about high school age - and asked him to take us out to Parkland. And as the car started off, I started my camera and I have a sweeping shot moving west from about - uh - maybe the middle of the Book Depository Building from ground level on past the park area - a sweeping shot with the car moving.

[...]

(edited)

Taking Couch's testimony, his film, and the known sequence and movements of cars in the motorcade into consideration, it looks like the camera car Couch was riding in (#10 in the animation, below) had come to a stop in the middle of its turn onto Elm when he started filming and caught Baker running towards the TSBD a few seconds after the final shot.

It's interesting to note that Couch's car was eight cars behind JFK's limo and, according to him, about 60 feet from starting its turn onto Elm when he heard the third shot.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/animation2.htm

--Tommy

Edited September 30, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[William Kelly]

But, Shelley and Lovelady left from the front steps of the TSBD, stopped at the concrete island to listen to Gloria Calvery (in one of his versions) and proceeded down the deadend Elm St. to the railroad yard (also in one version of his story).

This was not a quick duck out the back door for a look see and right back inside.

"Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end."

Notice Mr. Shelley testified that he and Lovelady WALKED on down to the first railroad track. How long do you think it took Shelley to get to the elevators?

So they are out front - they run down Elm, a small side street that ends at the end of the building where the rail road yard begins. They stand at the end of Elm, which is also the end of the TSBD building's west side and they walk along the loading docks there and enter the building from the west side entrance. No long hike, just a waltz around the building on the outside.

Once inside they stand by the elevators as the secretaries come down the steps and see them standing there. Then Baker and Truly show up and tell Shelley to guard the elevators - which are on the fifth floor.

Baker and Truly then proceed up the steps.

Bill, read the testimony again. Did Shelley say he ran down Elm St.? No, he testified they WALKED down Elm St. Big difference. He also testified that they STOOD there for a while and watched them search cars in the parking lot.

Not only is the distance Shelley covered from the front steps of the TSBD to the railroad track and back to the loading dock greater than the distance Victoria Adams covered from the 4th to the 1st floor by at least a factor of four (if not five or six - see the photo Thomas provided), he seems to be taking his sweet time; stopping to talk to Gloria Calvery and watching cars being searched. Victoria Adams, on the other hand, left the 4th floor within seconds of the last shot and went down to the 1st floor as rapidly as she could.

She obviously was at the 1st floor before Baker and Truly got to the elevators and, from Shelley's testimony, it is hard to understand how Truly could have given Shelley orders to guard the elevator. Truly would have been on his way upstairs before Shelley made it back to the building.

I can buy that. But the girls still came down the steps before Baker and Truly went up.

[Thomas Graves]

But, Shelley and Lovelady left from the front steps of the TSBD, stopped at the concrete island to listen to Gloria Calvery (in one of his versions) and proceeded down the deadend Elm St. to the railroad yard (also in one version of his story).

This was not a quick duck out the back door for a look see and right back inside.

"Mr. BALL - What did you and Billy Lovelady do?

Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end."

Notice Mr. Shelley testified that he and Lovelady WALKED on down to the first railroad track. How long do you think it took Shelley to get to the elevators?

So they are out front - they run down Elm, a small side street that ends at the end of the building where the rail road yard begins. They stand at the end of Elm, which is also the end of the TSBD building's west side and they walk along the loading docks there and enter the building from the west side entrance. No long hike, just a waltz around the building on the outside.

Once inside they stand by the elevators as the secretaries come down the steps and see them standing there. Then Baker and Truly show up and tell Shelley to guard the elevators - which are on the fifth floor.

Baker and Truly then proceed up the steps.

Bill, read the testimony again. Did Shelley say he ran down Elm St.? No, he testified they WALKED down Elm St. Big difference. He also testified that they STOOD there for a while and watched them search cars in the parking lot.

Not only is the distance Shelley covered from the front steps of the TSBD to the railroad track and back to the loading dock greater than the distance Victoria Adams covered from the 4th to the 1st floor by at least a factor of four (if not five or six - see the photo Thomas provided), he seems to be taking his sweet time; stopping to talk to Gloria Calvery and watching cars being searched. Victoria Adams, on the other hand, left the 4th floor within seconds of the last shot and went down to the 1st floor as rapidly as she could.

She obviously was at the 1st floor before Baker and Truly got to the elevators and, from Shelley's testimony, it is hard to understand how Truly could have given Shelley orders to guard the elevator. Truly would have been on his way upstairs before Shelley made it back to the building.

I can buy that. But the girls still came down the steps before Baker and Truly went up.

If that's Gloria Calvary running past Shelley and Lovelady in the Couch film, it's obvious that they didn't stop and have a conversation with her. Maybe she just yelled out, "They've shot JFK!" in passing?

Billy Lovelady's WC testimony sure is interesting in this regard. (And the highlighted red "yeah" is suspicious, IMHO. Why not "yes, sir" "yes" or "right," like all of his other affirmative answers? Is he telling a fib here, knowing that Ball means "Were you standing on the steps with Mr. Shelley when Gloria Calvary came running up?") But it is interesting to note that Lovelady thought the shots came from the left of the concrete pergola on the grassy knoll.

Mr. BALL - What did you hear?

Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.

Mr. BALL - Who was this girl?

Mr. LOVELADY -Gloria Calvary.

Mr. BALL - Gloria Calvary?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Where does she work?

Mr. LOVELADY - Southwestern Publishing Co.

Mr. BALL - Where was the direction of the sound?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll.

Mr. BALL - That's where it sounded to you?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area.

Mr. BALL - From the underpass area?

Mr. LOVELADY - Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll.

Mr. BALL - I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are.

Mr. LOVELADY - Where I thought the shots are?

Mr. BALL - No; you in the picture.

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, here (indicating).

Mr. BALL - Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the the step, would be here (indicating).

Mr. BALL - You were standing on which step?

Mr. LOVELADY - It would be your top level.

Mr. BALL - The top step you were standing there?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.

Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.

Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.

Mr. BALL - Shelley and you went down how far?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracks goes---

Mr. BALL - You went down the dead end on Elm?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - And down to the first tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did you see anything there?

Mr. LOVELADY - No, sir; well, just people running.

Mr. BALL - That's all?

Mr. LOVELADY - And hollerin.

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to go down there?

Mr. LOVELADY - I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, I guess---

Mr. BALL - They were running from that way or toward that way?

Mr. LOVELADY - Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.

Mr. BALL - How many steps?

Mr. LOVELADY - Twenty, 25.

Mr. BALL - Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.

Mr. BALL - Then what did you do?

Mr. LOVELADY - Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.

Mr. BALL - And enter from the rear?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.

Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.

Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.

Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?

Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.

Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?

Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.

Mr. BALL - A fast walk?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.

Mr. BALL - You turned around and looked?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. BALL - Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary Small door?

Mr. LOVELADY - You know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door.

Mr. BALL - That is where you went in, that little door?

Mr. LOVELADY - That's right.

Mr. BALL - That would be the north end of the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - That would be the west end, wouldn't it?

Mr. BALL - Is it the one right off Houston Street?

Mr. LOVELADY - No; you are thinking about another dock.

Mr. BALL - I am?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes; we have two.

Mr. BALL - Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side.

Mr. BALL - Now, the south side---

Mr. LOVELADY - Elm Street is that little dead-end street.

Mr. BALL - That's south.

Mr. LOVELADY - I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west.

Mr. BALL - You came into the building from the west side?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. BALL - Where did you go into the building?

Mr. LOVELADY - Through that, those raised-up doors.

Mr. BALL - Through the raised-up doors?

Mr. LOVELADY - Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it.

Mr. BALL - You came in through the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY - Right.

Mr. BALL - Who did you see in the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY - I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.

Mr. BALL - Who is Vickie?

Mr. LOVELADY - The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.

Mr. BALL - What is her full name?

Mr. LOVELADY - I wouldn't know.

Mr. BALL - Vickie Adams?

Mr. LOVELADY - I believe so.

Mr. BALL - Would you say it was Vickie you saw?

Mr. LOVELADY - I couldn't swear.

Mr. BALL - Where was the girl?

Mr. LOVELADY - I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeing a girl as she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.

Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people on the first floor?

Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in.

Mr. BALL - And you stayed on the first floor then?

Mr. LOVELADY - I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor.

Mr. BALL - Did you take them up there?

Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; I sure did.

--Tommy

Edited October 1, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[William Kelly]

Thanks Tommy, that answers a lot - Lovelady and Shelley walk/run west on Elm, turn around to see Baker run to the front steps, then go to the end of Elm - just past the end of the TSBD building, stop at the first track, which if you look at the aerial photo Tommy posted, is right there at the end of Elm alley, and then they walk to the loading dock and enter the building through the west side door - and see the lady - Vickie Adams.

Lovelady then asks somebody what time is it?

How come they didn't ask him what time it was? What time was it?

It had to be something like 12:3? something.

And by then Baker and Truly were on the way up, right?

[Thomas Graves]

Thanks Tommy, that answers a lot - Lovelady and Shelley walk/run west on Elm, turn around to see Baker run to the front steps, then go to the end of Elm - just past the end of the TSBD building, stop at the first track, which if you look at the aerial photo Tommy posted, is right there at the end of Elm alley, and then they walk to the loading dock and enter the building through the west side door - and see the lady - Vickie Adams.

Lovelady then asks somebody what time is it?

How come they didn't ask him what time it was? What time was it?

It had to be something like 12:3? something.

And by then Baker and Truly were on the way up, right?

Bill,

OK, but where do you want to fit in their alleged journey to the concrete "island" (where the traffic signal is situated), before or after they were caught on film walking down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard (as Baker is running up the TSBD steps)?

And how long did they stay at the edge of the railway yard, "watching the police search cars?"

And when did Gloria Calvary tell them that JFK had been shot?

--Tommy

Edited October 1, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[William Kelly]

Thanks Tommy, that answers a lot - Lovelady and Shelley walk/run west on Elm, turn around to see Baker run to the front steps, then go to the end of Elm - just past the end of the TSBD building, stop at the first track, which if you look at the aerial photo Tommy posted, is right there at the end of Elm alley, and then they walk to the loading dock and enter the building through the west side door - and see the lady - Vickie Adams.

Lovelady then asks somebody what time is it?

How come they didn't ask him what time it was? What time was it?

It had to be something like 12:3? something.

And by then Baker and Truly were on the way up, right?

Bill,

OK, but where do you want to fit in their alleged journey to the concrete "island" (where the traffic signal is situated), before or after they were caught on film walking down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard (as Baker is running up the TSBD steps)?

And how long did they stay at the edge of the railway yard, "watching the police search cars?"

And when did Gloria Calvary tell them that JFK had been shot?

--Tommy

Hi Tommy,

I don't know the answers to your questions and I think the films and their testimony should answer them, not me.

I'm just trying to piece it together myself.

BK

[Robert Prudhomme]

There was a letter from Dallas US Attorney Marcia Joe Stroud addressed to WC chief counsel J. Lee Rankin, dated June 2, 1964. The letter contained all of the corrections Victoria Adams requested be made to her testimony; none of which were ever made.

It did, however, contain the following:

“Miss Garner, Miss Adams’ supervisor, stated this morning that after Miss Adams went downstairs she (Miss Garner) saw Mr. Truly and the policeman come up.”

Small wonder Sandra Styles and Miss Garner were never called to testify before the WC.

[Richard Hocking]

It is highly unlikely the woman running past Lovelady and Shelley on the Elm St. Extension (in the Couch film) is Gloria Calvary.

The sequence of photos and film should establish the relative likely locations of L&S and Calvary at various times following the shots.

Begin with the last shot fired.

L&S are still on the Entrance Steps.

Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, Hicks, and Dishong are seen together on the curb in front of the Walkway of the North Pergola, in Zapruder.

Next comes the Couch clip, taken moments after the last shot.

L&S are seen moving down Elm St. Extension quite a ways from the steps when the unidentified woman runs past them.

After James Darnell jumped off Press Car 3, he runs West towards the underpass.

As he enters the Pergola area his camera captures Calvary, Hicks and Reed, still together and now on the grass but still in front of the walkway.

At about this same time, one of the Press buses that was behind Press Car #3 has turned the corner onto Elm and is now passing by the North Pergola area. Cabluck is inside.

Cabluck photo #3 captures Calvary, Westbrook, and Dishong in just about the same location as the Darnell frame mentioned above.

These photos show that L&S have had additional time to move further West, either on the Elm St Extension or on the traffic island, while Calvary and the girls are still in front of the Pergola walkway. The distance between L&S and Calvary is shrinking.

At this point, we should insert one more structural consideration. There is a concrete barrier wall that extends from the end of the colonnade of the North Pergola quite a ways towards the point of the traffic island. It is not very high, but looks high enough that women in skirts and high heels would walk around it rather than try to scale it. So Calvary and the girls had two possible routes to get back from their position: Take the sidewalk East towards the tip of the traffic island and cross the Elm street extension to the steps, or walk up the grassy slope to the enclosure at the east end of the colonnade where there is an opening to the Elm St. Extension.

So where did the L&S encounter with Gloria Calvary occur? Unless L&S turned around and went back toward the tip of the traffic island, it is likely that the encounter happened very near the colonnade enclosure opening when Calvary was hurrying back to the TSBD.

[Robert Prudhomme]

It is highly unlikely the woman running past Lovelady and Shelley on the Elm St. Extension (in the Couch film) is Gloria Calvary.

The sequence of photos and film should establish the relative likely locations of L&S and Calvary at various times following the shots.

Begin with the last shot fired.

L&S are still on the Entrance Steps.

Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, Hicks, and Dishong are seen together on the curb in front of the Walkway of the North Pergola, in Zapruder.

Next comes the Couch clip, taken moments after the last shot.

L&S are seen moving down Elm St. Extension quite a ways from the steps when the unidentified woman runs past them.

After James Darnell jumped off Press Car 3, he runs West towards the underpass.

As he enters the Pergola area his camera captures Calvary, Hicks and Reed, still together and now on the grass but still in front of the walkway.

At about this same time, one of the Press buses that was behind Press Car #3 has turned the corner onto Elm and is now passing by the North Pergola area. Cabluck is inside.

Cabluck photo #3 captures Calvary, Westbrook, and Dishong in just about the same location as the Darnell frame mentioned above.

These photos show that L&S have had additional time to move further West, either on the Elm St Extension or on the traffic island, while Calvary and the girls are still in front of the Pergola walkway. The distance between L&S and Calvary is shrinking.

At this point, we should insert one more structural consideration. There is a concrete barrier wall that extends from the end of the colonnade of the North Pergola quite a ways towards the point of the traffic island. It is not very high, but looks high enough that women in skirts and high heels would walk around it rather than try to scale it. So Calvary and the girls had two possible routes to get back from their position: Take the sidewalk East towards the tip of the traffic island and cross the Elm street extension to the steps, or walk up the grassy slope to the enclosure at the east end of the colonnade where there is an opening to the Elm St. Extension.

So where did the L&S encounter with Gloria Calvary occur? Unless L&S turned around and went back toward the tip of the traffic island, it is likely that the encounter happened very near the colonnade enclosure opening when Calvary was hurrying back to the TSBD.

Thank you for that analysis, Richard. There definitely seem to be some mistakes in Shelley's testimony and his first day affidavit. Do you think Shelley and Lovelady were at the 1st floor elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there and that Shelley received orders from Truly at that time to guard the elevators? Do you think they were there when Victoria Adams arrived from the 4th floor?

Edited October 1, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=328800

[Richard Hocking]

It is highly unlikely the woman running past Lovelady and Shelley on the Elm St. Extension (in the Couch film) is Gloria Calvary.

The sequence of photos and film should establish the relative likely locations of L&S and Calvary at various times following the shots.

Begin with the last shot fired.

L&S are still on the Entrance Steps.

Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, Hicks, and Dishong are seen together on the curb in front of the Walkway of the North Pergola, in Zapruder.

Next comes the Couch clip, taken moments after the last shot.

L&S are seen moving down Elm St. Extension quite a ways from the steps when the unidentified woman runs past them.

After James Darnell jumped off Press Car 3, he runs West towards the underpass.

As he enters the Pergola area his camera captures Calvary, Hicks and Reed, still together and now on the grass but still in front of the walkway.

At about this same time, one of the Press buses that was behind Press Car #3 has turned the corner onto Elm and is now passing by the North Pergola area. Cabluck is inside.

Cabluck photo #3 captures Calvary, Westbrook, and Dishong in just about the same location as the Darnell frame mentioned above.

These photos show that L&S have had additional time to move further West, either on the Elm St Extension or on the traffic island, while Calvary and the girls are still in front of the Pergola walkway. The distance between L&S and Calvary is shrinking.

At this point, we should insert one more structural consideration. There is a concrete barrier wall that extends from the end of the colonnade of the North Pergola quite a ways towards the point of the traffic island. It is not very high, but looks high enough that women in skirts and high heels would walk around it rather than try to scale it. So Calvary and the girls had two possible routes to get back from their position: Take the sidewalk East towards the tip of the traffic island and cross the Elm street extension to the steps, or walk up the grassy slope to the enclosure at the east end of the colonnade where there is an opening to the Elm St. Extension.

So where did the L&S encounter with Gloria Calvary occur? Unless L&S turned around and went back toward the tip of the traffic island, it is likely that the encounter happened very near the colonnade enclosure opening when Calvary was hurrying back to the TSBD.

Thank you for that analysis, Richard. There definitely seem to be some mistakes in Shelley's testimony and his first day affidavit. Do you think Shelley and Lovelady were at the 1st floor elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there and that Shelley received orders from Truly at that time to guard the elevators? Do you think they were there when Victoria Adams arrived from the 4th floor?

I am still trying to sort this all out. The witness testimony is a free for all with Lovelady and Shelley giving contradictory statements at various times. Regarding your first question (did Shelley and Lovelady arrive at the elevators before Truly and Baker?), consider this: Baker is about to enter the building at just about the same time that James Darnell hops off the convertible at the corner of Houston and Elm. Darnell runs to the West (with Camera running in his hands), and goes all the way to the area in front of the colonnade. That is a distance greater than the distance Truly and Baker would have to cover to get to the NW stairs on the first floor. Darnell then takes film of Calvary on the grass just a few steps from her motorcade viewing spot by the Curb on Elm St.

Now unless Shelley and Lovelady came all the way down to where Gloria was, they still have not had their encounter ...

So the boys still need to pass by Calvary (presumably near the East colonnade enclosure, hear the news from her, go to the first RR tracks, then return to the TSBD first floor through the west entrance to get to the NW stairs. That all makes it very difficult for me to believe S&L were at the elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there.

Regarding your second question, if I were going to place a bet, I would put money on Vicky Adams getting down to the first floor before anyone else arrived there.

Edited October 1, 2013 by Richard Hocking

[Robert Prudhomme]

It is highly unlikely the woman running past Lovelady and Shelley on the Elm St. Extension (in the Couch film) is Gloria Calvary.

The sequence of photos and film should establish the relative likely locations of L&S and Calvary at various times following the shots.

Begin with the last shot fired.

L&S are still on the Entrance Steps.

Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, Hicks, and Dishong are seen together on the curb in front of the Walkway of the North Pergola, in Zapruder.

Next comes the Couch clip, taken moments after the last shot.

L&S are seen moving down Elm St. Extension quite a ways from the steps when the unidentified woman runs past them.

After James Darnell jumped off Press Car 3, he runs West towards the underpass.

As he enters the Pergola area his camera captures Calvary, Hicks and Reed, still together and now on the grass but still in front of the walkway.

At about this same time, one of the Press buses that was behind Press Car #3 has turned the corner onto Elm and is now passing by the North Pergola area. Cabluck is inside.

Cabluck photo #3 captures Calvary, Westbrook, and Dishong in just about the same location as the Darnell frame mentioned above.

These photos show that L&S have had additional time to move further West, either on the Elm St Extension or on the traffic island, while Calvary and the girls are still in front of the Pergola walkway. The distance between L&S and Calvary is shrinking.

At this point, we should insert one more structural consideration. There is a concrete barrier wall that extends from the end of the colonnade of the North Pergola quite a ways towards the point of the traffic island. It is not very high, but looks high enough that women in skirts and high heels would walk around it rather than try to scale it. So Calvary and the girls had two possible routes to get back from their position: Take the sidewalk East towards the tip of the traffic island and cross the Elm street extension to the steps, or walk up the grassy slope to the enclosure at the east end of the colonnade where there is an opening to the Elm St. Extension.

So where did the L&S encounter with Gloria Calvary occur? Unless L&S turned around and went back toward the tip of the traffic island, it is likely that the encounter happened very near the colonnade enclosure opening when Calvary was hurrying back to the TSBD.

Thank you for that analysis, Richard. There definitely seem to be some mistakes in Shelley's testimony and his first day affidavit. Do you think Shelley and Lovelady were at the 1st floor elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there and that Shelley received orders from Truly at that time to guard the elevators? Do you think they were there when Victoria Adams arrived from the 4th floor?

I am still trying to sort this all out. The witness testimony is a free for all with Lovelady and Shelley giving contradictory statements at various times. Regarding your first question (did Shelley and Lovelady arrive at the elevators before Truly and Baker?), consider this: Baker is about to enter the building at just about the same time that James Darnell hops off the convertible at the corner of Houston and Elm. Darnell runs to the West (with Camera running in his hands), and goes all the way to the area in front of the colonnade. That is a distance greater than the distance Truly and Baker would have to cover to get to the NW stairs on the first floor. Darnell then takes film of Calvary on the grass just a few steps from her motorcade viewing spot by the Curb on Elm St.

Now unless Shelley and Lovelady came all the way down to where Gloria was, they still have not had their encounter ...

So the boys still need to pass by Calvary (presumably near the East colonnade enclosure, hear the news from her, go to the first RR tracks, then return to the TSBD first floor through the west entrance to get to the NW stairs. That all makes it very difficult for me to believe S&L were at the elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there.

Regarding your second question, if I were going to place a bet, I would put money on Vicky Adams getting down to the first floor before anyone else arrived there.

I have always found it odd that most researchers assume Truly ordered Shelley to guard the elevators before he and Baker ascended the stairs. I believe Shelley's testimony tells us exactly what happened.

"Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

Mr. BALL - At the west end?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?

Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL - What was he doing?

Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.

Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Who else did you see?

Mr. SHELLEY - That's all we saw immediately.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams?

Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.

Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?

Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building.

Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.

Mr. BALL - Now, did the police come into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.

Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors."

When asked if the police came into the building, Shelley replies yes, "they" started coming in pretty fast. As Baker was by himself with Truly, the word "they" would not define him. However, by the time Truly and Baker had come back to the 1st floor, there would have been several more police there, as described by Shelley.

As you say, it is very difficult to believe Shelley and Lovelady would have beaten Truly, Baker or Miss Adams to the 1st floor elevators, considering the distances involved.

[Thomas Graves]

It is highly unlikely the woman running past Lovelady and Shelley on the Elm St. Extension (in the Couch film) is Gloria Calvary.

The sequence of photos and film should establish the relative likely locations of L&S and Calvary at various times following the shots.

Begin with the last shot fired.

L&S are still on the Entrance Steps.

Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, Hicks, and Dishong are seen together on the curb in front of the Walkway of the North Pergola, in Zapruder.

Next comes the Couch clip, taken moments after the last shot.

L&S are seen moving down Elm St. Extension quite a ways from the steps when the unidentified woman runs past them.

After James Darnell jumped off Press Car 3, he runs West towards the underpass.

As he enters the Pergola area his camera captures Calvary, Hicks and Reed, still together and now on the grass but still in front of the walkway.

At about this same time, one of the Press buses that was behind Press Car #3 has turned the corner onto Elm and is now passing by the North Pergola area. Cabluck is inside.

Cabluck photo #3 captures Calvary, Westbrook, and Dishong in just about the same location as the Darnell frame mentioned above.

These photos show that L&S have had additional time to move further West, either on the Elm St Extension or on the traffic island, while Calvary and the girls are still in front of the Pergola walkway. The distance between L&S and Calvary is shrinking.

At this point, we should insert one more structural consideration. There is a concrete barrier wall that extends from the end of the colonnade of the North Pergola quite a ways towards the point of the traffic island. It is not very high, but looks high enough that women in skirts and high heels would walk around it rather than try to scale it. So Calvary and the girls had two possible routes to get back from their position: Take the sidewalk East towards the tip of the traffic island and cross the Elm street extension to the steps, or walk up the grassy slope to the enclosure at the east end of the colonnade where there is an opening to the Elm St. Extension.

So where did the L&S encounter with Gloria Calvary occur? Unless L&S turned around and went back toward the tip of the traffic island, it is likely that the encounter happened very near the colonnade enclosure opening when Calvary was hurrying back to the TSBD.

Thank you for that analysis, Richard. There definitely seem to be some mistakes in Shelley's testimony and his first day affidavit. Do you think Shelley and Lovelady were at the 1st floor elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there and that Shelley received orders from Truly at that time to guard the elevators? Do you think they were there when Victoria Adams arrived from the 4th floor?

I am still trying to sort this all out. The witness testimony is a free for all with Lovelady and Shelley giving contradictory statements at various times. Regarding your first question (did Shelley and Lovelady arrive at the elevators before Truly and Baker?), consider this: Baker is about to enter the building at just about the same time that James Darnell hops off the convertible at the corner of Houston and Elm. Darnell runs to the West (with Camera running in his hands), and goes all the way to the area in front of the colonnade. That is a distance greater than the distance Truly and Baker would have to cover to get to the NW stairs on the first floor. Darnell then takes film of Calvary on the grass just a few steps from her motorcade viewing spot by the Curb on Elm St.

Now unless Shelley and Lovelady came all the way down to where Gloria was, they still have not had their encounter ...

So the boys still need to pass by Calvary (presumably near the East colonnade enclosure, hear the news from her, go to the first RR tracks, then return to the TSBD first floor through the west entrance to get to the NW stairs. That all makes it very difficult for me to believe S&L were at the elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there.

Regarding your second question, if I were going to place a bet, I would put money on Vicky Adams getting down to the first floor before anyone else arrived there.

I have always found it odd that most researchers assume Truly ordered Shelley to guard the elevators before he and Baker ascended the stairs. I believe Shelley's testimony tells us exactly what happened.

"Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

Mr. BALL - At the west end?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?

Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL - What was he doing?

Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.

Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Who else did you see?

Mr. SHELLEY - That's all we saw immediately.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams?

Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.

Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?

Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building.

Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.

Mr. BALL - Now, did the police come into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.

Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors."

When asked if the police came into the building, Shelley replies yes, "they" started coming in pretty fast. As Baker was by himself with Truly, the word "they" would not define him. However, by the time Truly and Baker had come back to the 1st floor, there would have been several more police there, as described by Shelley.

As you say, it is very difficult to believe Shelley and Lovelady would have beaten Truly, Baker or Miss Adams to the 1st floor elevators, considering the distances involved.

Robert and Richard,

It's interesting that in his WC testimony, Truly didn't say anything about posting Shelley (or anyone for that matter) at the elevators-- neither on Baker's and his way up to the roof, nor after their getting back down to the first floor (when it was a "madhouse," according to Truly).

It's also interesting that he said he saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor and some policemen on the fourth floor.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly1.htm

--Tommy

Edited October 2, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

It is highly unlikely the woman running past Lovelady and Shelley on the Elm St. Extension (in the Couch film) is Gloria Calvary.

The sequence of photos and film should establish the relative likely locations of L&S and Calvary at various times following the shots.

Begin with the last shot fired.

L&S are still on the Entrance Steps.

Calvary, Reed, Westbrook, Hicks, and Dishong are seen together on the curb in front of the Walkway of the North Pergola, in Zapruder.

Next comes the Couch clip, taken moments after the last shot.

L&S are seen moving down Elm St. Extension quite a ways from the steps when the unidentified woman runs past them.

After James Darnell jumped off Press Car 3, he runs West towards the underpass.

As he enters the Pergola area his camera captures Calvary, Hicks and Reed, still together and now on the grass but still in front of the walkway.

At about this same time, one of the Press buses that was behind Press Car #3 has turned the corner onto Elm and is now passing by the North Pergola area. Cabluck is inside.

Cabluck photo #3 captures Calvary, Westbrook, and Dishong in just about the same location as the Darnell frame mentioned above.

These photos show that L&S have had additional time to move further West, either on the Elm St Extension or on the traffic island, while Calvary and the girls are still in front of the Pergola walkway. The distance between L&S and Calvary is shrinking.

At this point, we should insert one more structural consideration. There is a concrete barrier wall that extends from the end of the colonnade of the North Pergola quite a ways towards the point of the traffic island. It is not very high, but looks high enough that women in skirts and high heels would walk around it rather than try to scale it. So Calvary and the girls had two possible routes to get back from their position: Take the sidewalk East towards the tip of the traffic island and cross the Elm street extension to the steps, or walk up the grassy slope to the enclosure at the east end of the colonnade where there is an opening to the Elm St. Extension.

So where did the L&S encounter with Gloria Calvary occur? Unless L&S turned around and went back toward the tip of the traffic island, it is likely that the encounter happened very near the colonnade enclosure opening when Calvary was hurrying back to the TSBD.

Thank you for that analysis, Richard. There definitely seem to be some mistakes in Shelley's testimony and his first day affidavit. Do you think Shelley and Lovelady were at the 1st floor elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there and that Shelley received orders from Truly at that time to guard the elevators? Do you think they were there when Victoria Adams arrived from the 4th floor?

I am still trying to sort this all out. The witness testimony is a free for all with Lovelady and Shelley giving contradictory statements at various times. Regarding your first question (did Shelley and Lovelady arrive at the elevators before Truly and Baker?), consider this: Baker is about to enter the building at just about the same time that James Darnell hops off the convertible at the corner of Houston and Elm. Darnell runs to the West (with Camera running in his hands), and goes all the way to the area in front of the colonnade. That is a distance greater than the distance Truly and Baker would have to cover to get to the NW stairs on the first floor. Darnell then takes film of Calvary on the grass just a few steps from her motorcade viewing spot by the Curb on Elm St.

Now unless Shelley and Lovelady came all the way down to where Gloria was, they still have not had their encounter ...

So the boys still need to pass by Calvary (presumably near the East colonnade enclosure, hear the news from her, go to the first RR tracks, then return to the TSBD first floor through the west entrance to get to the NW stairs. That all makes it very difficult for me to believe S&L were at the elevators when Truly and Baker arrived there.

Regarding your second question, if I were going to place a bet, I would put money on Vicky Adams getting down to the first floor before anyone else arrived there.

I have always found it odd that most researchers assume Truly ordered Shelley to guard the elevators before he and Baker ascended the stairs. I believe Shelley's testimony tells us exactly what happened.

"Mr. SHELLEY - We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end.

Mr. BALL - At the west end?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room.

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?

Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.

Mr. BALL - What was he doing?

Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.

Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Mr. BALL - Who else did you see?

Mr. SHELLEY - That's all we saw immediately.

Mr. BALL - Did you ever see Vickie Adams?

Mr. SHELLEY - I saw her that day but I don't remember where I saw her.

Mr. BALL - You don't remember whether you saw her when you came back?

Mr. SHELLEY - It was after we entered the building.

Mr. BALL - You think you did see her after you entered the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; I thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that.

Mr. BALL - Now, did the police come into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.

Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place?

Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors."

When asked if the police came into the building, Shelley replies yes, "they" started coming in pretty fast. As Baker was by himself with Truly, the word "they" would not define him. However, by the time Truly and Baker had come back to the 1st floor, there would have been several more police there, as described by Shelley.

As you say, it is very difficult to believe Shelley and Lovelady would have beaten Truly, Baker or Miss Adams to the 1st floor elevators, considering the distances involved.

Robert and Richard,

It's interesting that in his WC testimony, Truly didn't say anything about posting Shelley (or anyone for that matter) at the elevators-- neither on Baker's and his way up to the roof, nor after their getting back down to the first floor (when it was a "madhouse," according to Truly).

It's also interesting that he said he saw Jack Dougherty on the fifth floor and some policemen on the fourth floor.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly1.htm

--Tommy

Very interesting, Thomas. I'm beginning to wonder if these witnesses actually all attended the same assassination.

[Ray Mitcham]

He also said he saw the limo stop but not for how long, because he was distracted..