Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Sean Murphy]

Yes, Richard, BWF's own testimony rules him out as Prayer Man. Looks like David lacks the grace to admit he was wrong.

I agree with you that Prayer Man's position--a pretty dreadful vantage point--is curious.

Curious also that Billy Lovelady's position in Altgens and Wiegman is that bit further from the western side wall than it was just seconds before in Hughes.

What happened?

Looking closely at a terrific gif Gerda Dunckel put together from the Hughes film, which covers the turn of the Presidential limousine onto Elm Street, are we seeing Lovelady being distracted by something just behind him to his right?

Might this something be the arrival of Prayer Man out onto the front steps?

And might Prayer Man's arrival help account for the nudging of Lovelady ever so slightly east?

Yes, Lovelady appears to make a turn to the right at the very end of this clip. And using your questions as a cue, I think it is possible to propose that as the Limo turns the corner onto Elm, Prayer Man and Lovelady begin to adjust their positions to the locations seen in Altgens and Weigman. With Prayer Man making a late entrance to his spot, when all eyes are focused on JFK and Jackie, no one is going to turn around and look behind them on the steps. After shots are fired and chaos erupts, it would be even less likely for witnesses to turn around and focus their attention to the back of the alcove.

Exactly, Richard.

Prayer Man has precisely the kind of lousy vantage point one would expect a late arrival to have.

No witness seems to have noticed or recalled the presence of Prayer Man there. Yet the photographic evidence proves his presence.

This is a further indication that he arrived there when attention was focused elsewhere.

So--how could a late arrival appear on the steps unnoticed?

a ) by appearing when attention is focused on the motorcade

b ) by emerging onto the steps from inside the building rather than from the street.

Prayer Man has surely got to be a TSBD man.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Ray Mitcham]

Can the photos and still frames of the man in the doorway - aka "Prayer Man" be further isolated and enhanced to determine if he has a v-neck t-shirt, a coke in his hand or any other specific fact that can help identify him further?

There does seem to be a glint here. A bottle?

Sean, I think Tommy wll be on shortly to say he can read the label on the bottle

Edited August 19, 2013 by Ray Mitcham

[Sean Murphy]

We have very good reason to believe that Lee Oswald visited the second-floor lunchroom a few minutes before the assassination.

That very good reason's name is a name Gary Mack used to be quick to draw attention to:

Carolyn Arnold.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Might this something be the arrival of Prayer Man out onto the front steps?

And might Prayer Man's arrival help account for the nudging of Lovelady ever so slightly east?

Exactly, Richard.

Prayer Man has precisely the kind of lousy vantage point one would expect a late arrival to have.

No witness seems to have noticed or recalled the presence of Prayer Man there. Yet the photographic evidence proves his presence.

This is a further indication that he arrived there when attention was focused elsewhere.

So--how could a late arrival appear on the steps unnoticed?

a ) by appearing when attention is focused on the motorcade

b ) by emerging onto the steps from inside the building rather than from the street.

Prayer Man has surely got to be a TSBD man.

Bravo Richard, Sean and everyone contributing to the photo analysis.

It gets better and better.

And special thanks to Bill Kelly for the TSBD orientation.

Edited August 19, 2013 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Robert Prudhomme]

Can the photos and still frames of the man in the doorway - aka "Prayer Man" be further isolated and enhanced to determine if he has a v-neck t-shirt, a coke in his hand or any other specific fact that can help identify him further?

There does seem to be a glint here. A bottle?

Hello Sean

The way the arms are being held and the height they are being held at reminds me of my father who bought an 8 mm home movie camera in the early 60's. He would stand in almost the exact fashion, with the camera held in both hands, while he was waiting for an event he wanted to take footage of.

Of course, it does seem a bit odd that someone shooting movie footage would be standing so far back in the doorway. He would, however, have an adequate vantage point as JFK came around the corner, as there was only one person in front of him and that person was standing on a lower step.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

I have had to make a few posts here invisible.

It was decided to continue this Forum to allow rational discussion between members. No attacks on other members and no name calling are allowed. I am sorry a couple of you feel you had a bad experience on another Forum, but that is not relevant here.

Most of the members are all trying their best when posting according to what we've been given as boundaries. It may be difficult to gauge when one is close to crossing the line. If you feel that what you want to post may be close, perhaps it is better to rephrase, or not to post at all.

Kathy

My apologies, Kathy. I do tend to get riled easily.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Prayer Man has surely got to be a TSBD man.

Can anyone tell if Prayer Man goes inside the building afterwards?

[Terry Adams]

I think that this does put Oswald outside as the "prayer man". He said that he went outside to see what all the excitement was (not to watch the parade). This would mean, in my opinion, that he just stepped outside to see why there was so much moving about, running, etc., then back in the building and on to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get a coke. and, it my remembrance as well that Officer Baker wrote that LHO had a coke in his hand and that part was later marked out.

Hello Mr. Adams

I have heard before, as you stated, that Oswald said he went outside to see what the excitement was all about following the shots, but I have never been able to find the source of this. Do you know when and to whom he was supposed to have said this?

More specifically, did Oswald actually refer to the excitement as being the commotion following the assassination? He may have been referring to the crowd outside the TSBD seeing JFK coming down Houston St. and the resulting elevation in excitement.

What a pity Oswald never lived to stand trial.

Hello Robert, here is what I found on that; WC testimony of postal inspector Harry D. Holmes on the score of what Oswald said in custody on the Sunday morning:

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.

Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?

Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.

Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

...

Mr. HOLMES. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.

But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.

He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."

Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."

And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

[Robert Prudhomme]

I think that this does put Oswald outside as the "prayer man". He said that he went outside to see what all the excitement was (not to watch the parade). This would mean, in my opinion, that he just stepped outside to see why there was so much moving about, running, etc., then back in the building and on to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get a coke. and, it my remembrance as well that Officer Baker wrote that LHO had a coke in his hand and that part was later marked out.

Hello Mr. Adams

I have heard before, as you stated, that Oswald said he went outside to see what the excitement was all about following the shots, but I have never been able to find the source of this. Do you know when and to whom he was supposed to have said this?

More specifically, did Oswald actually refer to the excitement as being the commotion following the assassination? He may have been referring to the crowd outside the TSBD seeing JFK coming down Houston St. and the resulting elevation in excitement.

What a pity Oswald never lived to stand trial.

Hello Robert, here is what I found on that; WC testimony of postal inspector Harry D. Holmes on the score of what Oswald said in custody on the Sunday morning:

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.

Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?

Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.

Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

...

Mr. HOLMES. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.

But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.

He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."

Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."

And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

Mr. Adams

Thank you very much for that response.

Wow! Harry Holmes seems to be contradicting the entire Baker/Oswald meeting on the second floor, and adds a whole new dimension to the "Coke/no Coke" debate. This is indeed a revelation.

What a pity the "commotion outside" that drew Oswald out the front door was never defined as being the commotion following the assassination or the commotion at the sight of JFK making the turn from Main St. onto Houston St. In order for our anonymous man at the head of the stairs to be Oswald, it would have to be the "commotion outside" that arose at the sight of the motorcade coming into view, in order to give the man on the stairs time to be outside before pictures and video were taken.

Of course, though, Harry Holmes never actually testifies that Oswald claimed to have actually made it out the front door; a very important point that should definitely be noted. If he had briefly come outside, and then went back inside the vestibule, we must ask ourselves why he would want to hide the fact from his interrogators that he had been outside briefly.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Robert Prudhomme

[Richard Hocking]

I think that this does put Oswald outside as the "prayer man". He said that he went outside to see what all the excitement was (not to watch the parade). This would mean, in my opinion, that he just stepped outside to see why there was so much moving about, running, etc., then back in the building and on to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get a coke. and, it my remembrance as well that Officer Baker wrote that LHO had a coke in his hand and that part was later marked out.

Hello Mr. Adams

I have heard before, as you stated, that Oswald said he went outside to see what the excitement was all about following the shots, but I have never been able to find the source of this. Do you know when and to whom he was supposed to have said this?

More specifically, did Oswald actually refer to the excitement as being the commotion following the assassination? He may have been referring to the crowd outside the TSBD seeing JFK coming down Houston St. and the resulting elevation in excitement.

What a pity Oswald never lived to stand trial.

Hello Robert, here is what I found on that; WC testimony of postal inspector Harry D. Holmes on the score of what Oswald said in custody on the Sunday morning:

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.

Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?

Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.

Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

...

Mr. HOLMES. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.

But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.

He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."

Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."

And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

Excellent find, Terry.

You have to wonder what Oswald meant by "vestibule". Did he mean the area between the inner and outer doors, or was he referring to the covered Entry steps and porch (which I have been referring to as an "alcove")? If it is the latter, it would be strong evidence of Baker encountering Oswald at Prayer Man's location. Even if LHO meant inside the door, it is still only a couple steps away.

Another item that comes to mind: Greg Parker and, I believe, Lee Farley (both contributors to this site) some time ago presented a strong case that the 2nd floor encounter between Oswald and Baker never happened on the 2nd floor, but rather somewhere else ... food for thought.

If I can find the link, I will post it.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Greg Parker and, I believe, Lee Farley (both contributors to this site) some time ago presented a strong case that the 2nd floor encounter between Oswald and Baker never happened on the 2nd floor, but rather somewhere else ... food for thought.

If I can find the link, I will post it.

Watch out, Richard. That way lies INDIGESTION!

[Robert Prudhomme]

I think that this does put Oswald outside as the "prayer man". He said that he went outside to see what all the excitement was (not to watch the parade). This would mean, in my opinion, that he just stepped outside to see why there was so much moving about, running, etc., then back in the building and on to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get a coke. and, it my remembrance as well that Officer Baker wrote that LHO had a coke in his hand and that part was later marked out.

Hello Mr. Adams

I have heard before, as you stated, that Oswald said he went outside to see what the excitement was all about following the shots, but I have never been able to find the source of this. Do you know when and to whom he was supposed to have said this?

More specifically, did Oswald actually refer to the excitement as being the commotion following the assassination? He may have been referring to the crowd outside the TSBD seeing JFK coming down Houston St. and the resulting elevation in excitement.

What a pity Oswald never lived to stand trial.

Hello Robert, here is what I found on that; WC testimony of postal inspector Harry D. Holmes on the score of what Oswald said in custody on the Sunday morning:

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.

Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?

Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.

Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

...

Mr. HOLMES. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.

But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.

He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."

Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."

And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

Excellent find, Terry.

You have to wonder what Oswald meant by "vestibule". Did he mean the area between the inner and outer doors, or was he referring to the covered Entry steps and porch (which I have been referring to as an "alcove")? If it is the latter, it would be strong evidence of Baker encountering Oswald at Prayer Man's location. Even if LHO meant inside the door, it is still only a couple steps away.

Another item that comes to mind: Greg Parker and, I believe, Lee Farley (both contributors to this site) some time ago presented a strong case that the 2nd floor encounter between Oswald and Baker never happened on the 2nd floor, but rather somewhere else ... food for thought.

If I can find the link, I will post it.

Mr. Hocking

I was just thinking the same thing and was about to put it in a post. You are correct, I do recall hearing that the 2nd floor encounter may never have occurred on the 2nd floor at all. I can't quite recall where I heard it but, someone also claimed there was reference to a 4th floor meeting. Does this sound familiar to you? Anyone?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Greg Parker and, I believe, Lee Farley (both contributors to this site) some time ago presented a strong case that the 2nd floor encounter between Oswald and Baker never happened on the 2nd floor, but rather somewhere else ... food for thought.

If I can find the link, I will post it.

Watch out, Richard. That way lies INDIGESTION!

I'll bring the Tums!

[William Kelly]

It has been suggested to me that the height of man in the doorway - aka "Prayer Man," can be determined if the height of the door is known. This could eliminate Oswald or it could keep him in the running, though not positively confirm it.

If the man is Oswald, he shouldn't have the coke bottle in his hand until after he buys it.

In the C/D film the man in the door way is there when Baker rushes past him immediately after the assassination.

If Oswald, he would then have to go back inside, up the stairs just inside the door and through the offices to the vestibule of the Lunchroom where he is seen by Baker through the window of the closed door. He then has the encounter with Baker and Truly and then buys his coke, leaving the same way he came in.

Then, if this film sequence is three to five minutes after the last shot, you see the same man walking down the steps - does he have the coke now?

▶ L.H. Oswald Leaving TSBD November 22 1963? - YouTube

[Sean Murphy]

From a May 24th 1964 New York Herald Tribune article by Dom Bonafede titled 'The Picture With a Life of Its Own':

Why would the FBI be relieved?

How could Oswald's showing up in a front entrance image have been considered even a remote possibility?

I mean, it's not as if Oswald himself was claiming to have been out front... was it?

Edited September 6, 2013 by Sean Murphy