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William Kelly

Oswald Leaving TSBD?

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Based on this logic -- if Frazier had been standing next to LHO (i.e. Prayer Man) on the front steps, it seems absolutely certain he would have insisted upon this testimony.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

While I am not buying into the romance angle, and after reading Frazier's recent(ish) account, to which I posted a link, I am inclined to agree..... IF that is WBF on the steps. If it is not WBF, PM could still be LHO.

Michael

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10 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

...While I am not buying into the romance angle, and after reading Frazier's recent(ish) account, to which I posted a link, I am inclined to agree..... IF that is WBF on the steps. If it is not WBF, PM could still be LHO.

Michael

Michael,

Yes, that's my feeling, too.  If that is not Wesley Buell Frazier on the steps next to Prayer Man, then Prayer Man might be LHO.  But if that was Frazier standing there, then he would have testified to that -- because Frazier was very protective of LHO, and this would have exonerated LHO very quickly.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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5 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

Gerry Patrick Hemming told A.J. Weberman that he personally called LHO from Miami on 11/21/1964, to offer LHO double the price of his Manlicher-Carcano rifle if he would bring it to the TSBD in the morning, and hand it over to a person whom they both knew.

Since we now have evidence that Gerry Patrick Hemming was connected to Guy Banister in New Orleans (Caufield, 2015), and we know for a fact that LHO was connected with Guy Banister in New Orleans (544 Camp Street), the connection between LHO and Gerry Patrick Hemming is eminently plausible.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

$25 to bring a rifle to your work place, where the President is expected to cruise-buy the next day, and become an accessory to the assassination of the President? What kind of assassin would be calling 24 hrs ahead of time, looking for a crappy rifle to shoot a President? And who would involve themselves in such nonsense? I wouldn't take my gun out to shoot a deer without knowing that I could group 5 rounds in a 4" circle at 125 yards. No assassin would just take a rifle like that from a guy and use it to shoot a head of state, and no one would take such an offer seriously. 

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19 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

$25 to bring a rifle to your work place, where the President is expected to cruise-buy the next day, and become an accessory to the assassination of the President? What kind of assassin would be calling 24 hrs ahead of time, looking for a crappy rifle to shoot a President? And who would involve themselves in such nonsense? I wouldn't take my gun out to shoot a deer without knowing that I could group 5 rounds in a 4" circle at 125 yards. No assassin would just take a rifle like that from a guy and use it to shoot a head of state, and no one would take such an offer seriously. 

Michael,

This is what A.J. Weberman and Bud Fensterwald published in NODULE 15, back in the late 1970's.

What makes it plausible is the book by Jeff Caufield, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015).

In other words, LHO was a Fake Leftist -- pretending to be an officer of the FPCC in New Orleans at 544 Camp Street.  LHO was a secret member of the Radical Right -- trying hard to get accepted into the CIA.  He worked with various mercenaries there in New Orleans, along with Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Larry Howard, Roscoe White and various members of Interpen, and several Cuban Expatriate mercenaries.

Their group also included many mercenaries (not CIA Agents) and many Fake CIA Agents, including Frank Sturgis, David Ferrie, Jack S. Martin, and Fred Crisman (cf. Joan Mellen, 2005).  The likelihood seems high to me that these Fake CIA Agents were promsing LHO that he could get a steady job in the CIA if he played his cards right.

So, in my reading, LHO was very cozy with Guy Banister and Gerry Patrick Hemming.  In that context, as a CIA-wannabe, LHO would be naive enough to do exactly what A.J. Weberman reported in NODULE 15 (ca. 1975), namely, bring his Mannlicher Carcano rifle to the TSBD for a friend of Gerry Patrick Hemming -- his trusted ally.

Naive -- but not impossible.  (Besides that, $25 in 1963 was like $250 today, and LHO had no apartment for his wife and two babies.  So, the motivation was there.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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5 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

This is what A.J. Weberman and Bud Fensterwald published in NODULE 15, back in the late 1970's.

What makes it plausible is the book by Jeff Caufield, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015).

.................,,,,.,,,

Naive -- but not impossible.  (Besides that, $25 in 1963 was like $250 today, and LHO had no apartment for his wife and two babies.  So, the motivation was there.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I get it. And I can also come up, in my head, with other scenarios where WBF still has a hand in it.

But, alas, I find myself theorizing about LHO and the TSBD, and I don't think JFK was shot from there. I usually try to avoid this area of the conspiracy but I end up finding my way here anyhow.

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23 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

...I find myself theorizing about LHO and the TSBD, and I don't think JFK was shot from there. I usually try to avoid this area of the conspiracy but I end up finding my way here anyhow.

Michael,

IMHO, JFK was shot from three locations: (1) the Grassy Knoll; (2) the TSBD; and (3) the DalTex building.  There were at least 6 shots, coordinated by an umbrella signal and walkie-talkies.  It was a military-style ambush -- very carefully orchestrated, with high-ranking members of the Dallas Police inside the plot, working with Guy Banister in New Orleans, and General Walker in Dallas (and included Roscoe White and J.D. Tippit).

Perhaps the best summary of this CT can be found in two books:

1. Treachery in Dallas (1996) by Walt Brown

2. General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015) by Jeff Caufield.

LHO was not one of the shooters -- but the shooters did have possession of LHO's rifle.  So LHO was their Patsy, and LHO actually knew who some of them were.

The WC testimony of certain members of the Dallas Police, some Deputies, and the top brass of the DPD, along with the WC testimony of General Edwin Walker, Robert Alan Surrey, Revilo P. Oliver, Bernie Weissman, Robert Klause and Postmaster Harry Holmes can be interpreted to reveal this plot.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Edited by Paul Trejo

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28 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

I get it. And I can also come up, in my head, with other scenarios where WBF still has a hand in it...

Michael,

I myself am not coming up with any of this CT in my head -- I'm taking it from eye-witness reports and WC testimony.  It's the evidence that fits together.  That's my interpretation, I agree, but I always rely on eye-witness reports.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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3 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

couchloveladyshelley7l8kuy.gif

...(NB: it is still in dispute whether it is or isn't Shelley and Lovelady in the clip) (To be fair, Paul, I did point this out to you a while ago in this comment)...

Regards.

Alistair,

I appreciate this suggestion from the Prayer Man film (as I call it).   I doubt it is Shelley and Lovelady, because Shelley was quite a bit older than the taller man in this flim.  That's my opinion.

If (and only if) it really is Bill Shelly and Billy Lovelady, then we seem to have a problem, because they seem to be walking directly away from Prayer Man, so it is more likely that they saw Prayer Man standing at the doorway, since they were there in the doorway themselves only seconds before this film clip.

Billy Lovelady actually testified to the WC that he was sometimes "sitting on the steps."

But IMHO it isn't Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.  As I recall, Bill Shelley was a middle-aged man, while Billy Lovelady was young, whereas both men in this film clip appear to be young.

Besides that -- as you noted Alistair -- both Shelly and Lovelady testified that they were standing on "that little old island" when they looked back to see Officer Marrion Truly run up the TSBD steps.   That is not the case with these two men in this film clip.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

I think you're underplaying Frazier's "bathroom remark."  

Whether I'm underplaying it, or you are overplaying it, it doesn't matter, it's not really leading anywhere of value. Either way (if you are right, or I am right) it's not leading to show that Oswald is innocent simply because following it through both ways lead away from Oswald being Prayer Man, it's just that your 'overplaying' leads more away from it... and I know you realise that because you went on to say,

 

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

But if that was Frazier standing there, then he would have testified to that -- because Frazier was very protective of LHO, and this would have exonerated LHO very quickly.

A good, you do see it...

To all intents and purposes, it is Frazier on the steps - or at least I don't think it has ever been in doubt. So really you are saying Prayer Man can't be Oswald.

(I don't think Prayer Man is Oswald anyway, of course, if a better quality clip was to surface that showed it was unequivocally Oswald then that would be a big game changer)

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6 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

I get it. And I can also come up, in my head, with other scenarios where WBF still has a hand in it.

But, alas, I find myself theorizing about LHO and the TSBD, and I don't think JFK was shot from there. I usually try to avoid this area of the conspiracy but I end up finding my way here anyhow.

Michael, you are not alone in thinking that JFK was not shot from the TSBD. And that would of course exonerate Oswald! It would also, surely, mean he wasn't being set up. lol If there were no shots fired from the TSBD at all (whether hitting JFK or missing him) then how could there be a 'conspiracy' to frame Oswald as a shooter from the TSBD. What kind of conspirators would want to set up Oswald as a 6th floor TSBD shooter and then not take at least one shot from that location. lol

As you can see, Paul has shots coming from elsewhere too, but does have at least one shot coming from the TSBD as it's the only way the 'conspirators' can set up Oswald as a patsy.

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

IMHO, JFK was shot from three locations: (1) the Grassy Knoll; (2) the TSBD; and (3) the DalTex building.  There were at least 6 shots, coordinated by an umbrella signal and walkie-talkies. 

LHO was not one of the shooters -- but the shooters did have possession of LHO's rifle.  So LHO was their Patsy, and LHO actually knew who some of them were.

The way I look at it (and Paul seems to be in agreeance), if the conspirators were setting up Oswald as a 6th floor TSBD shooter then, no matter where else shots also came from, there had to be at least one shot from the 6th floor TSBD from a rifle that could be, at least, linked to Oswald. Paul has stated that it was Oswald's rifle... the question is who brought it in to the TSBD...

... Paul, you earlier said that you felt that Oswald brought the rifle in and passed it off to someone else, and I'm sure you mentioned earlier that he brought it in that morning. If that's the case, delving too deeply in to Frazier's testimony may lead away from that, because Frazier says the package was (in his opinion) too small to carry a rifle (pretty sure he didn't actually measure it though so really he is just guestimating anyway)...

 

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6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

I appreciate this suggestion from the Prayer Man film (as I call it).   I doubt it is Shelley and Lovelady, because Shelley was quite a bit older than the taller man in this flim.  That's my opinion.

Yes Shelley was a bit older than Lovelady.

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

If (and only if) it really is Bill Shelly and Billy Lovelady, then we seem to have a problem, because they seem to be walking directly away from Prayer Man, so it is more likely that they saw Prayer Man standing at the doorway, since they were there in the doorway themselves only seconds before this film clip.

Nope, no problem whatsoever. If it is them walking away then they would have seen Prayer Man in the doorway, but if it's not them walking away then they would still be on the steps seeing Prayer Man.

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Billy Lovelady actually testified to the WC that he was sometimes "sitting on the steps."

And? Your point is? Lovelady testified that he was out on the steps for approx. 30 minutes, and yes he testified what you are saying, he also testified that he ate his lunch on the steps. He had 30 minutes to do all that, and no doubt at some point, as he said, he was sometimes 'sitting on the steps'. So, again, your point is?

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Besides that -- as you noted Alistair -- both Shelly and Lovelady testified that they were standing on "that little old island" when they looked back to see Officer Marrion Truly run up the TSBD steps.   That is not the case with these two men in this film clip.

I never noted that at all! Both of them never testified that they were standing on 'that little old island'! Shelley testified to that, Lovelady didn't! Lovelady said only that both he and Shelley had walked a maximum of 25 steps away from the steps of the TSBD when they 'saw' 'Baker/Truly move towards the door - and that ties in with the clip...

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

But IMHO it isn't Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.  As I recall, Bill Shelley was a middle-aged man, while Billy Lovelady was young, whereas both men in this film clip appear to be young.

Define 'middle-aged', and define 'young'... why not state how old you think both are?

Instead of just throwing out that you 'recall' Shelley was 'middle-aged' and Lovelady was 'young' why not go and find out how old they both were. It took me like 5 seconds to find out that information... at the time of the assassination of Kennedy;

Shelley: 37 years old
Lovelady: 25 years old

So yeah, Shelley was 'quite a bit older' than Lovelady, but so what... photos of both of them on that day are freely available and does it look like there is a huge difference in look of age?

As something of a comparison, here is a photo of someone who is 25 beside a person who is 37...

5ddd249648b71fd38def73d5f9cd7cfc.jpg

Regards

P.S. also, why not have a look at THIS ARTICLE from the Prayer-Man website about it all.

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The more I watch this slowed version of the two men - they are much closer to the island side of the street than the opposite side from which they came. It also appears that after passing the running woman who turns her head towards them in passing as if saying something ... the men look like they may have headed for the Island once they passed the rear of the car they were next to.

In the still image below ... the two men look too big compared to the car across the street that was parked along the TSBD, but they do match more in size to the car parked near the tree on the Island.

 

Lovelady-and-Shelly-in-Couch-1.jpg

Couch film capture_2.jpg

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4 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

The more I watch this slowed version of the two men - they are much closer to the island side of the street than the opposite side from which they came. It also appears that after passing the running woman who turns her head towards them in passing as if saying something ... the men look like they may have headed for the Island once they passed the rear of the car they were next to.

Bill, I reckon you are on to something there about being closer to the island side of the street...

You have a keen eye and a good understanding of perspective, what are your thoughts about the synchronized Couch/Darnell clip?

darnellcouchsync24fpsa6kkb.gif

 

Regards

P.S. Woah, I just noticed something about that clip that astonished me. The time of that clip is said to be no more than 30 seconds after the shots, is that defintely accurate?

 

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Aside from the whole Prayer Woman discussion, has there ever been other theories regarding the identity of Prayer Man - except for LHO and Lovelady? I guess we can discard the Lovelady theory as he has been positively placed elsewhere on the stairs right? But who else could it be other than a stranger then, who walked past and wanted to get an elevated view of the motorcade? But one would think that any other person than LHO would have been ID'ed by now? And I can't see how it could have been LHO since no one saw him there..

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34 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Bill, I reckon you are on to something there about being closer to the island side of the street...

You have a keen eye and a good understanding of perspective, what are your thoughts about the synchronized Couch/Darnell clip?

darnellcouchsync24fpsa6kkb.gif

 

Regards

P.S. Woah, I just noticed something about that clip that astonished me. The time of that clip is said to be no more than 30 seconds after the shots, is that defintely accurate?

 

Please tell us what you noticed Alistair! 

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