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On 4/15/2017 at 3:41 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Tommy:

This is one one of the most important points in the reconstruction of the events occurring in the doorway during the time of assassination. Would you not* mind posting the Wiegman's frame which you think would be the one corresponding to Altgens6?

Mr. Dale Myers reconstructed the time axes of different films, and assumed it was Wiegman's frame 14/15 which matched with Altgens6. However, I doubt Myers's time reconstruction at this particular point for a very simple reason: we see Carl Jones viewing east in Altgens6 but to the west in Wiegman's frame 14 or 15. Of course, the image quality of Groden's version of Wiegman's film available to me is very poor to determine the Mr. Jones's gaze axis. Anyway, I wonder what are the opinions of forum members about Carl Jones viewing towards the Triple Underpass in frame 14/15 and eastwards in Altgens6.

 

wiegman_14.jpg

Mr. Dale K. Myers's reconstruction of Wiegman/Zapruder time alignment can be found in his document "Secret of Homicide...", page 114, downloadable at:

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/report_download.html

* [a minor correction performed by an obsessive-compulsive former English teacher who just can't help himself]

Dear Mr. Andrej Stancak,

Since I'm not all "techno-geeked up" and therefore don't think in terms of milliseconds (lol) about this particular sub-subject, I'm not going to go into this with y'all in any great detail.  Suffice it to say that my "scientifically-sloppy" little theory here is based on the following evidence-based observations and assumptions:

1 )  Red-shirted Lovelady was standing next to the left wall (near his soda pop / lunch ?) in that segment of Hughes which shows the limo turning (or getting ready to turn? -- going from memory here) left onto Elm Street.

2 )  A few seconds later, as shown in the larger of the two Weigman frames in the two-frame GIF (i.e., the one with the two cars in the foreground and in which Billy is still standing upright), Lovelady has "departed from" that wall (leaving his precious soda pop / lunch unattended !?) and moved a few feet away to his left so that he can get a better view from the center hand railing (which hand railing prevented him from going even farther to his left and getting an even better view).

3 )  Still standing next to the center hand railing in the other frame of two-frame GIF, Lovelady in now leaning forward (as is Doorman-Lovelady in Altgens6), having evidently heard a shot or a shout or a scream (as, interestingly enough, has "Prayer Person" heard said shot or shout or scream as indicated by his or her lowering his-or-her camera from his-or-her face in order to better see what the heck's goin' on around him-or-her).  Having said all of that, I suppose you want to know why Lovelady decided to lean forward?  Well, although Lovelady's leaning forward probably didn't help him to see or hear any better what was goin' on down on Elm Street, I believe that it was a normal human reaction in that situation the sound of a shot or a shout or a scream, and that leaning forward like that might even have been his (unconscious?) way of "pointing out" to the other people on the steps that "Hey!  Somethin's happenin' here, what it is ain't exactly clear, could there be a man wit a gun over there?" in this particular Altgens6-correlated Weigman frame (i.e., the one without the cars in the foreground).  To answer your question in a very roundabout and scientifically-sloppy (but at least non-geeky) way.

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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On 4/14/2017 at 0:50 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

Gerry:

the top landing has been extended many years ago. The glass door is not there as well. Anyway, thanks for posting this image which shows other aspects of the doorway clearly.

 

I might have other pictures from previous visits.  How do you mean extended for the top landing?

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21 minutes ago, Gerry Simone said:

I might have other pictures from previous visits.  How do you mean extended for the top landing?

The current depth of the doorway does not match the one of the 1963 doorway because the door was changed and pushed back into the building during the major refurbishment works. This has extended the depth of the top platform, and the current measurement of the depth does not apply to historic photographs. 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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31 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Mr. Andrej Stancak,

Since I'm not all "techno-geeked" up and therefore don't think in terms of milliseconds (lol) about this particular sub-subject, I'm not going to go into this with y'all in any great detail.  Suffice it to say that my "scientifically-sloppy" little theory here is based on the following evidence-based observations and assumptions:

1 )  Red-shirted Lovelady was standing next to the left wall (near his soda pop / lunch ?) in that segment of Hughes which shows the limo turning (or getting ready to turn? -- going from memory here) left onto Elm Street.

2 )  A few seconds later, as shown in the larger of the two Weigman frames in the two-frame GIF (i.e., the one with the two cars in the foreground and in which Billy is still standing upright), Lovelady has "departed from" that wall (leaving his precious soda pop / lunch unattended !?) and moved a few feet away to his left so that he can get a better view from the center hand railing (which hand railing prevented him from going even farther to his left and getting an even better view).

3 )  Still standing next to the center hand railing in the other frame of two-frame GIF, Lovelady in now leaning forward (as is Doorman-Lovelady in Altgens6), having evidently heard a shot or a shout or a scream (as, interestingly enough, has "Prayer Person" heard said shot or shout or scream as indicated by his or her lowering his-or-her camera from his-or-her face in order to better see what the heck's goin' on around him-or-her).  Having said all of that, I suppose you want to know why Lovelady decided to lean forward?  Well, although Lovelady's leaning forward probably didn't help him to see or hear any better what was goin' on down on Elm Street, I believe that it was a normal human reaction in that situation the sound of a shot or a shout or a scream, and that leaning forward like that might even have been his (unconscious?) way of "pointing out" to the other people on the steps that "Hey!  Somethin's happenin' here, what it is ain't exactly clear, could there be a man wit a gun over there?" in this particular Altgens6-correlated Weigman frame (i.e., the one without the cars in the foreground).  To answer your question in a very roundabout and scientifically-sloppy (but at least non-geeky) way.

--  Tommy :sun

Thanks, Mr. Tommy, for both correcting my clumsy English and sharing with us your insights.

However: leaning forwards is not what mammals, including humans, would do in response to a startling event, such as a gun shot. The startle reaction is a primitive neural response aimed to stabilise the head upon an impact from the front. It is, therefore, associated with contractions of back and neck muscles which prevents an animal or human to fall back. You may have been thinking of an orienting response, a primitive neural response to novel stimuli, which aims to amplify the sensory input. Turning head towards the source of a novel stimulus, dilation of pupils, adjusting earlobes (e.g., in cats), and tuning the tension of tiny muscles in the ear which increase the sensitivity to sounds are all components of orienting response.

 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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20 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

IMO Prayer man is standing on the top step, in the corner close to the glass window.

I don't see any indication that he is standing on the edge of the top step.

I don't see any indication that he has one foot on the next step down.

20130908-003704.jpg

Just to clarify Robin (or anyone else) - BWF is standing on the landing or top of the stairs, correct?  I can almost count the risers for each step.  Is there a way to know where PM is by counting the risers and knowing how many there were in total back then?  I would guess that PM is on the step below the landing or top of the stairway.

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1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Cheers Ray,

those measurements fit in quite nicely with what you said way back in April 2016 on the Prayer Person - Prayer Man thread - total of 72 inches and change, (6ft and some change)... it's just when you mentioned a few comments earlier on this thread that it was 7ft 6 and change it threw me off a bit. lol

Cheers for the clarification.

Excellent checking. :)

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33 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

The current depth of the doorway does not match the one of the 1963 doorway because the door was changed and pushed back into the building during the major refurbishment works. This has extended the depth of the top platform, and the current measurement of the depth does not apply to historic photographs. 

Excellent.  I'm planning on returning this November and might bring a tape measure. B)

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On 4/15/2017 at 0:56 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

Thanks, Mr. Tommy, for both correcting my clumsy English and sharing with us your insights.

However: leaning forwards is not what mammals, including humans, would do in response to a startling event, such as a gun shot. The startle reaction is a primitive neural response aimed to stabilise the head upon an impact from the front. It is, therefore, associated with contractions of back and neck muscles which prevents an animal or human to fall back. You may have been thinking of an orienting response, a primitive neural response to novel stimuli, which aims to amplify the sensory input. Turning head towards the source of a novel stimulus, dilation of pupils, adjusting earlobes (e.g., in cats), and tuning the tension of tiny muscles in the ear which increase the sensitivity to sounds are all components of orienting response.

 

Dear Andrej

Hogwash.  

For all we know Lovelady reacted exactly the way you say a person reacts to something "startling" but it wasn't caught on film by the rapidly- "panning" Weigman. 

I agree with Robin Unger on this -- Lovelady does not step down, he leans forward.  

Wouldn't Lovelady's alleged stepping down towards the loud sound contradict your otherwise brilliant analysis and description of what his "startle reaction" was?

Or are you claiming that the first shot hadn't even rung out yet when he "stepped down"?

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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45 minutes ago, Gerry Simone said:

Just to clarify Robin (or anyone else) - BWF is standing on the landing or top of the stairs, correct?  I can almost count the risers for each step.  Is there a way to know where PM is by counting the risers and knowing how many there were in total back then?  I would guess that PM is on the step below the landing or top of the stairway.

A while ago I started looking for 'contemporary' images of the TSBD doorway and I came one that showed the steps very clearly but it had been taken from the opposite side... simply by flipping the image around the doorway and steps lined up relatively well with the view of the Darnell frame and as such can act as a decent (imo) visual 'guide'...

 

tsbd-door-clear-reversed.jpg

Regards

Regards

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17 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Robin, I was wondering about the width of the landing there... is the width known for sure? It doesn't appear to be very big from that image...

Regards

Alistair

From memory i think the depth of the top landing was approx 1-metre from the end of the hand rail to the glass door.

that will need to be verified. ?

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4 minutes ago, Robin Unger said:

From memory i think the depth of the top landing was approx 1-metre from the end of the hand rail to the glass door.

that will need to be verified. ?

Cheers Robin.

I came across the following from this page... with the text " They discovered that the entrance had been pushed in from approximately 3 feet to slightly over 9 feet, per this image. "

Rosie-measuring-the-doorway.jpg

If the red line on that image was indeed where the original entrance was, and it was indeed a landing of 3ft, then by implication the width of the doorway from wall to wall must be no more than 9ft across...

... not the biggest of areas then.

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1 minute ago, Robin Unger said:

Nice Image.

Looking at the William Allen photos, the top landing looks just deep enough for two cops to be standing on it , one just behind the other.

Allen_crops.jpg

 

In the lower of those two images, the policeman with the rounded helmet on has to, I feel, be standing one step down. The door I believe pretty much, when open comes right up to the edge of the landing, or near enough... I feel that might be somewhat better highlighted by the following image...

TSBD-employees-leaving.jpg

See how on the wall at the side of the doorway there is the tiled area and then the bricked area... from what I see the tiled area lines up with the top landing and the bricked area lines up with the first step down, and from looking at it I would say that the bricked area appear to be a third of the size of the tiled area, which would tie in well with the top landing being 3ft deep because the step is 12 inches... (hope that makes sense?)

11 minutes ago, Robin Unger said:

Toni Frantini did some good work on the TSBD entrance and Prayer mans location, i am trying to find his old thread.

there was some very good images in that post.

Cheers :)

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Yes, as i tried to demonstrate with my colorization,the tiled area appears to be the same depth as the top landing.

As i understand it, the glass door when opened only just missed hitting the end of the hand rail, with possibly just a couple of inches to spare.

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