Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Thomas Graves]

THANKS FOR TRYING TO GET THIS BACK ON TRACK THOMAS.

And don't be afraid of John Armstrong, just don't get bogged down in any dogma of any sort.

I had missed the whole segment of great quotes from Marrion Baker that I had not seen before.

"The investigator from Washington contacted me for my recollections of what happened but I guess they weren't interested in what I said."

- Dallas Police motorcycle policeman and first law enforcement inside the TSBD

Still fascinated with one of Baker's versions of his encounter with Oswald:

"The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do."

C'mon, Mr. Baker, is it Door No. 1, Door No. 2 or Door No. 3 ??

Robert... can you please source this statement for me? When/Where was this said and to whom?

Thanks

DJ

Joseph,

It appears to be an oral statement made by Baker, "many years" after the assassination. I found it in a long article about the acoustical evidence by a "John C. Bowles."

http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html

Here's the pertinent but undated "statement," with appropriate introduction:

CHAPTER SIX

REFLECTIONS

Probably the most informed and the most ignored authorities on what happened and in what order in Dealey Plaza are the motorcade motor jockeys. They have been interviewed uncounted times by many people, ranging from official investigators to insufferable quacks. Again, they are referred to in this text by a "letter" name, hopeful that it will discourage further contacts, however well-intentioned. While their recollections are presented in the first person, their comments should not be taken as unalterable quotes. Too many years have passed for them to remember with unimpeachable certainty what they might have said earlier and what they say now. Accordingly, what they say here should be considered for the meaning rather than exactness. [emphasis added by T. Graves]

[...]

OFFICER "E" [obviously Marion Baker] --

It had been a long escort. We had a lot of people all the way. There were no problems, just a heavy crowd and a lot of yelling and cheering, and the motors were getting hot. When you follow the lead, you do a lot of starting and stopping, trying to hold an interval. I was glad it was almost over.

The crowd was real heavy down on the end of the downtown area, but just past Dealey Plaza it would open up and we would be on the freeway and just a few minutes from the Trade Mart. The front of the motorcade started blocking up in the crowd in those last turns coming off Main and turning onto Elm. Back on Houston, where we were, we were just about stopped and moving real slow when we could move.

A little past half way down Houston (between Main and Elm), I heard the first shot. I could tell it came from somewhere in front of me, and high. As I looked up I noticed all the pigeons flushed off the top of the building on the corner ahead of me. And in the same period I heard the second shot, and then the third one. I couldn't see just where the shots came from but I knew they were from a high-powered rifle. I hunt a lot, and had just got back from hunting. There was no mistaking that; there were three shots, that's for sure. Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Book Depository). It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do.

The investigator from Washington contacted me for my recollection of what happened, but I guess they weren't interested in what I said.

_________________________________________________

What's interesting to me is that the above sentences in bold tend to substantiate Sean Murphy's theory.

Simply put, Baker suggests above that he and Truly realized only after they had encountered Oswald that the elevators were stuck on the fifth floor. From the Warren Report, we already know that Truly and Baker were on the first floor when they tried to get one of the freight elevators to come down, but couldn't, and went up the stairs instead. Therefore, Baker and Truly must have encountered Oswald on the first floor.

http://books.google.com/books?id=TpzGMAmH2LEC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=truly+baker+%22first+floor%22+elevator&source=bl&ots=ijwVDtVD1A&sig=TxFR8rL7BKAO1oeBGOgb5LFnv7I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RpZpUp_mDYzyigKz0YDQBA&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=truly%20baker%20%22first%20floor%22%20elevator&f=false

--Tommy

bumped in an attempt to get this thread back on topic

Bill,

The only problem I have with Baker's "statement" is that John C. Bowles didn't actually say that Baker had uttered or written it (remember, according to Bowles an Officer "E" made it), it's undated, and it's unspecified as to whom "Officer E" made or gave the statement.

For all I know, John C. Bowles could have creatively "interpreted" what Baker said a long time ago and then put it in his own words, with his own spin.

What argues against this, though, is the fact that Bowles appears to be a LNer, and his article is on another LNer's website (David Reitzes). It would make no sense for Bowles to make up a statement that supports a CTer point of view, and even less sense for Reitzes to present it for the whole world to see. Could it be that Bowles just slipped up? He was, after all, concentrating on rebutting the HSCA's "open mike" accoustical findings, not on trying to determine where in the TSBD Baker and Truly had encountered Oswald. But I rather doubt it.

--Tommy

PS You're right of course to point out the significance of Baker's saying that a Federal investigator had contacted him and (evidently) taken a statement, and that the Feds did nothing with it. If this is true, could it be because they realized that Baker's statement to them implied (or outright stated) that he had encountered Oswald on the first floor?

The fact that neither Bowles nor Reitzes edited out this part of Baker's statement could argue either way for its authenticity, I suppose. I suppose it could also argue for Bowles' and Reitzes' carelessness or, conversely, their sense of fair play and honest reporting.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Sean Murphy]

[Richard Hocking]

Yup. He is still there in the corner of the porch, Sean.

As the 50th approaches, the visible interest in Prayer Man still appears to be limited to a few Internet Forums.

Hopefully, he will receive some long overdue exposure in the conferences taking place next month.

[Thomas Graves]

Yup. He is still there in the corner of the porch, Sean.

As the 50th approaches, the visible interest in Prayer Man still appears to be limited to a few Internet Forums.

Hopefully, he will receive some long overdue exposure in the conferences taking place next month.

From the Just Wondering Department:

If Prayer Man is Oswald, shouldn't we be able to see some of his white T-shirt?

Yes, I realize that Prayer Man was standing in the shadows, but still.....?

--Tommy

Edited October 27, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Sean Murphy]

From the Just Wondering Department:

If Prayer Man is Oswald, shouldn't we be able to see some of his white T-shirt?

Yes, I realize that Prayer Man was standing in the shadows, but still.....?

--Tommy

Tommy, Prayer Man's shirt appears to be buttoned up fairly high.

Fritz's transcription of Bookhout's interrogation notes indicates that Oswald told Fritz he changed shirts back at his rooming house--the shirt he was wearing when arrested was not the shirt he went to work in--that was a "reddish" shirt.

A "maroon and grey cotton" shirt was found among Oswald's effects at N. Beckley Ave.: what I wouldn't give to see a photo of it.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Pat Speer]

Still fascinated with one of Baker's versions of his encounter with Oswald:

"The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do."

C'mon, Mr. Baker, is it Door No. 1, Door No. 2 or Door No. 3 ??

Robert... can you please source this statement for me? When/Where was this said and to whom?

Thanks

DJ

It appears to be an oral statement made by Baker, "many years" after the assassination. I found it in a long article about the acoustical evidence by a "John C. Bowles."

http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html

Here's the pertinent but undated "statement," with appropriate introduction:

CHAPTER SIX

REFLECTIONS

Probably the most informed and the most ignored authorities on what happened and in what order in Dealey Plaza are the motorcade motor jockeys. They have been interviewed uncounted times by many people, ranging from official investigators to insufferable quacks. Again, they are referred to in this text by a "letter" name, hopeful that it will discourage further contacts, however well-intentioned. While their recollections are presented in the first person, their comments should not be taken as unalterable quotes. Too many years have passed for them to remember with unimpeachable certainty what they might have said earlier and what they say now. Accordingly, what they say here should be considered for the meaning rather than exactness. [emphasis added by T. Graves]

[...]

OFFICER "E" [obviously Marion Baker]

It had been a long escort. We had a lot of people all the way. There were no problems, just a heavy crowd and a lot of yelling and cheering, and the motors were getting hot. When you follow the lead, you do a lot of starting and stopping, trying to hold an interval. I was glad it was almost over.

The crowd was real heavy down on the end of the downtown area, but just past Dealey Plaza it would open up and we would be on the freeway and just a few minutes from the Trade Mart. The front of the motorcade started blocking up in the crowd in those last turns coming off Main and turning onto Elm. Back on Houston, where we were, we were just about stopped and moving real slow when we could move.

A little past half way down Houston (between Main and Elm), I heard the first shot. I could tell it came from somewhere in front of me, and high. As I looked up I noticed all the pigeons flushed off the top of the building on the corner ahead of me. And in the same period I heard the second shot, and then the third one. I couldn't see just where the shots came from but I knew they were from a high-powered rifle. I hunt a lot, and had just got back from hunting. There was no mistaking that; there were three shots, that's for sure. Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Book Depository). It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do.

The investigator from Washington contacted me for my recollection of what happened, but I guess they weren't interested in what I said.

_________________________________________________

What's interesting to me is the fact that the sentences in bold tend to substantiate Sean Murphy's theory.

Simply put, Baker suggests here that he and Truly realized that the elevators were stuck on the fifth floor only after they had encountered Oswald. From the Warren Report, we already know that Truly and Baker were on the first floor when they tried to get one of the freight elevators to come down, but couldn't, so went up the stairs instead.

http://books.google.com/books?id=TpzGMAmH2LEC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=truly+baker+%22first+floor%22+elevator&source=bl&ots=ijwVDtVD1A&sig=TxFR8rL7BKAO1oeBGOgb5LFnv7I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RpZpUp_mDYzyigKz0YDQBA&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=truly%20baker%20%22first%20floor%22%20elevator&f=false

--Tommy

Bowles is not to be relied upon. There's a reason he interviewed real people and then failed to identify them by name. He changed some of their words.

Edited October 27, 2013 by Pat Speer

[Thomas Graves]

From the Just Wondering Department:

If Prayer Man is Oswald, shouldn't we be able to see some of his white T-shirt?

Yes, I realize that Prayer Man was standing in the shadows, but still.....?

--Tommy

Tommy, Prayer Man's shirt appears to be buttoned up fairly high.

Fritz's transcription of Bookhout's interrogation notes indicates that Oswald told Fritz he changed shirts back at his rooming house--the shirt he was wearing when arrested was not the shirt he went to work in--that was a "reddish" shirt.

A "maroon and grey cotton" shirt was found among Oswald's effects at N. Beckley Ave.: what I wouldn't give to see a photo of it.

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Sean,

Me, too! Maybe it was a maroon and grey turtleneck. LOL

--Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

Still fascinated with one of Baker's versions of his encounter with Oswald:

"The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do."

C'mon, Mr. Baker, is it Door No. 1, Door No. 2 or Door No. 3 ??

Robert... can you please source this statement for me? When/Where was this said and to whom?

Thanks

DJ

It appears to be an oral statement made by Baker, "many years" after the assassination. I found it in a long article about the acoustical evidence by a "John C. Bowles."

http://www.jfk-online.com/bowles6.html

Here's the pertinent but undated "statement," with appropriate introduction:

CHAPTER SIX

REFLECTIONS

Probably the most informed and the most ignored authorities on what happened and in what order in Dealey Plaza are the motorcade motor jockeys. They have been interviewed uncounted times by many people, ranging from official investigators to insufferable quacks. Again, they are referred to in this text by a "letter" name, hopeful that it will discourage further contacts, however well-intentioned. While their recollections are presented in the first person, their comments should not be taken as unalterable quotes. Too many years have passed for them to remember with unimpeachable certainty what they might have said earlier and what they say now. Accordingly, what they say here should be considered for the meaning rather than exactness. [emphasis added by T. Graves]

[...]

OFFICER "E" [obviously Marion Baker]

It had been a long escort. We had a lot of people all the way. There were no problems, just a heavy crowd and a lot of yelling and cheering, and the motors were getting hot. When you follow the lead, you do a lot of starting and stopping, trying to hold an interval. I was glad it was almost over.

The crowd was real heavy down on the end of the downtown area, but just past Dealey Plaza it would open up and we would be on the freeway and just a few minutes from the Trade Mart. The front of the motorcade started blocking up in the crowd in those last turns coming off Main and turning onto Elm. Back on Houston, where we were, we were just about stopped and moving real slow when we could move.

A little past half way down Houston (between Main and Elm), I heard the first shot. I could tell it came from somewhere in front of me, and high. As I looked up I noticed all the pigeons flushed off the top of the building on the corner ahead of me. And in the same period I heard the second shot, and then the third one. I couldn't see just where the shots came from but I knew they were from a high-powered rifle. I hunt a lot, and had just got back from hunting. There was no mistaking that; there were three shots, that's for sure. Though I didn't see exactly where the shots came from, I knew in my own mind they probably came from the corner building as the sound was right and because of the pigeons. So I headed there, got off my motor and entered the building (the Texas School Book Depository). It took a while because of the crowd; they had started moving in every direction.

The man who said he was the building superintendent was outside and met me at the door and went in with me. Shortly after I entered the building I confronted Oswald. The man who identified himself as the superintendent said that Oswald was all right, that he was employed there. We left Oswald there, and the supervisor showed me the way upstairs. We couldn't get anyone to send the freight elevator down. In giving the place a quick check, I found nothing that seemed out of the ordinary, so I started back to see what had happened. Not knowing for sure what had happened, I was limited in what I could legally do.

The investigator from Washington contacted me for my recollection of what happened, but I guess they weren't interested in what I said.

_________________________________________________

What's interesting to me is the fact that the sentences in bold tend to substantiate Sean Murphy's theory.

Simply put, Baker suggests here that he and Truly realized that the elevators were stuck on the fifth floor only after they had encountered Oswald. From the Warren Report, we already know that Truly and Baker were on the first floor when they tried to get one of the freight elevators to come down, but couldn't, so went up the stairs instead.

http://books.google.com/books?id=TpzGMAmH2LEC&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=truly+baker+%22first+floor%22+elevator&source=bl&ots=ijwVDtVD1A&sig=TxFR8rL7BKAO1oeBGOgb5LFnv7I&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RpZpUp_mDYzyigKz0YDQBA&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=truly%20baker%20%22first%20floor%22%20elevator&f=false

--Tommy

Bowles is not to be relied upon. There's a reason he interviewed real people and then failed to identify them by name. He changed some of their words.

Pat,

Yes, he could have changed their words.

But this Bowles guy is a Lone Nutter, so why would he "change Baker's words" so it would appear that Baker had encountered Oswald on the first floor?

That would exonerate Oswald, wouldn't it?

Sincerely,

--Tommy

Edited October 28, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Richard Hocking]

Yup. He is still there in the corner of the porch, Sean.

As the 50th approaches, the visible interest in Prayer Man still appears to be limited to a few Internet Forums.

Hopefully, he will receive some long overdue exposure in the conferences taking place next month.

From the Just Wondering Department:

If Prayer Man is Oswald, shouldn't we be able to see some of his white T-shirt?

Yes, I realize that Prayer Man was standing in the shadows, but still.....?

--Tommy

Tommy, Looking at the photos of LHO above, his wide-neck T-shirt is hanging low, below his clavicle. With the shirt buttoned up, it could be that very little, if any of the T-shirt is visible from the angle of the photograph. On another message board, it has been suggested that Prayer Man was buttoning up his shirt. Another possibility for what PM was doing with his hands.

[Sean Murphy]

Everyone is familiar with CE150, Oswald's brown arrest shirt:

Less well known is CE151, which is described in WC Volume XVI as a light-brown shirt:

Here it is:

It is given a strikingly detailed description in a January 64 FBI list of Oswald's personal effects taken from the Paine residence and from Oswald's N. Beckley rooming house--

It is not however included in a 27 November 63 Secret Service list of Oswald's clean clothes taken from Beckley:

This is hardly surprising: if the photo of the shirt is anything to go by, it is not a freshly laundered shirt.

[Sean Murphy]

Now according to Captain Will Fritz's transcription of FBI Special Agent James W. Bookhout's interrogation notes, Oswald said he "changed shirts" back at his rooming house:

Both Bookhout and SS Agent Thomas Kelley report that Oswald described the shirt as "reddish" rather than straightforwardly red.

**

I submit that the dishevelled looking "light brown" longsleeve shirt itemised by the FBI as Q369/A16 and by the WC as CE151 is none other than the shirt Oswald wore to work the day of the assassination.

And I submit that it's the very shirt we see Prayer Man wearing:

(Note: I am indebted to a researcher named 'Beowulf', who is active on Greg Parker's Reopen Kennedy Case Forum, for very kindly pointing me to the list of shirt exhibits. S.M.)

Edited October 28, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Thomas Graves]

Now according to Captain Will Fritz's transcription of FBI Special Agent James W. Bookhout's interrogation notes, Oswald said he "changed shirts" back at his rooming house:

Both Bookhout and SS Agent Thomas Kelley report that Oswald described the shirt as "reddish" rather than straightforwardly red.

**

I submit that the dishevelled looking "light brown" longsleeve shirt itemised by the FBI as Q369/A16 and by the FBI as CE151 is none other than the shirt Oswald wore to work the day of the assassination.

And I submit that it's the very shirt we see Prayer Man wearing:

(Note: I am indebted to a researcher named 'Beowulf', who is active on Greg Parker's Reopen Kennedy Case Forum, for very kindly pointing me to the list of shirt exhibits. S.M.)

Sean and Richard,

Maybe someone could ask Marina or B.W.F. if this "brown" or "light brown" shirt is the one Oswald wore to work that day, or if he wore the "maroon-and-gray" one, instead. The maroon-and-grey one would make a certain amount of sense because maroon is, after all, a "reddish" color. But it's Interesting that the "reddish" maroon-and-gray one was in the "clean" list, and the "brown" one wasn't, so evidently the brown one was considered to be a piece of "dirty laundry."

--Tommy

Too bad there's no list of dirty laundry found in Oswald's room. Or is there?

Edited October 28, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

Now according to Captain Will Fritz's transcription of FBI Special Agent James W. Bookhout's interrogation notes, Oswald said he "changed shirts" back at his rooming house:

Both Bookhout and SS Agent Thomas Kelley report that Oswald described the shirt as "reddish" rather than straightforwardly red.

**

I submit that the dishevelled looking "light brown" longsleeve shirt itemised by the FBI as Q369/A16 and by the WC as CE151 is none other than the shirt Oswald wore to work the day of the assassination.

And I submit that it's the very shirt we see Prayer Man wearing:

(Note: I am indebted to a researcher named 'Beowulf', who is active on Greg Parker's Reopen Kennedy Case Forum, for very kindly pointing me to the list of shirt exhibits. S.M.)

Excellent Sean... I had made the argument to Cinque and Fetzer about the changing of the clothes which in turn makes Bledsoe a tool of the DPD and it impossible to use Altgens and the arrest shirt for any comparisons

....

Here is the final inventory page 11199G, a closeup of the first batch of clothing NOT NUMBERED past 455.

Oswald (via Fritz and Bookout) tell us he changed shirt and "briches"... and put them in the bottom drawer of the dresser... obviously dirty...

and here it is listed without an inventory # - these are the items Stovall and Rose initialed before releasing to FBI... notice what looks like "RF" Robert Frazier's initials on the front bottom - left side of shirt

Do you know when and where THEY SAY CE151 was found? and please notice the next items of clothing... ce156 and ce157... the "gray" slacks he was said to be wearing... by Whaley, Frazier, Bledsoe although none were sure....

Cheers

DJ

Edited October 29, 2013 by David Josephs

[Sean Murphy]

Very interesting, David, thanks.

Would you be able to post a link to that inventory page?

EDIT: Please disregard, David, I've sourced the page. Cheers.

S.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Thomas Graves]

Very interesting, David, thanks.

Would you be able to post a link to that inventory page?

EDIT: Please disregard, David, I've sourced the page. Cheers.

S.

So far I've seen that shirt described as "light brown," "brown," and "tan." None of those colors are "reddish."

--Tommy