Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Thomas Graves]

You guys are confusing me. Are you saying that "Prayer Man" and the Altgens 6 "Oswald / Lovelady Man" are mutually exclusive? Isn't the Altgens guy definitely leaning out to get a better view of the Limo after it passed the TSBD entrance?

Chris, the guy in Altgens is Billy Lovelady.

Oswald cannot be seen in Altgens, for he is standing slightly behind and to the right of Lovelady--as shown in the Wiegman film.

The Altgens Doorman issue has been one big decades-long distraction.

It did however throw the FBI into a panic on the evening of the assassination.

Oswald in custody was putting himself "out front" at the time of the shooting, and the presence of an Oswald-resembling man on the steps in Altgens seemed to be bearing him out.

So they made a beeline to Billy Lovelady's home and, in Lovelady's own words, gave a sigh of relief when he told them it was him.

Yeah, and we're lucky that the FBI apparently didn't look at Wiegman and Couch/Darnell as closely as we have. If they'd noticed Prayer Man and seen the resemblance between him and Oswald, those films might not be available now.

--Tommy

Edited November 20, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Sean Murphy]

Maybe Oswald’ secret assignment that day was to keep a close watch on some other TSBD employee, perhaps Truly and/or Cambell (and they knew it and acted accordingly), as the parade passed by the building. That would place him behind most of the others on the front steps, so they wouldn’t notice. Moreover, placing Oswald on the front steps would make it appear that Oswald was about to leave the building soon after the shooting. However, this plan became somewhat disrupted by the fact that more than one shot had to be fired, so that people panicked and immediately rushed into the building, and particularly by the totally unexpected immediate rush into TSBD by officer Baker. Then the original plan concerning when and where Oswald was first spotted had to be revised and adapted to the new set of facts, and the lunchroom story evolved.

Bjørn Gjerde

Yes, and I think Truly had genuine grounds for reporting Oswald to the police.

He had seen this man apparently on his way out of the building before the smoke from the shots had even cleared.

And when he came back downstairs from the roof with Baker, he noticed that he was indeed gone.

Very suspicious haste on this employee's part to leave the building.

So Truly reported Oswald's name to Lumpkin & Fritz as someone who might be involved somehow.

But Oswald as the actual sixth-floor triggerman? The very furthest thing from Truly's mind.

When it became clear to Truly later that evening just what Fritz was proposing to charge Oswald with, he must have experienced profound shock and disbelief.

And when they asked him to put his name to a ridiculous story about the second-floor lunchroom, well... one can only imagine his state of mind.

[Bjørn Gjerde]

Sean,

Well, I believe Truly was more involved in this plot than you seem to believe. I don't think it was a coincidence that Truly hired Oswald, and I don't think the floor laying project was a coincidence. Both events were preparations for the upcoming BIG event, and Truly probably knew that. Truly was the crucial figure in the framing of Oswald, so his participation was probably well planned in advance. And Truly truly did his job as they had expected.

Bjørn Gjerde

[Frankie Vegas]

Any chance this topic could be pinned to the start page please?
Seems sad to have it buried underneath two pages of "No chance of new investigation in Kennedy case" "Kennedy Curse dooming it's members" and "We will never know what happened".
Thanks!

[Robert Prudhomme]

Any chance this topic could be pinned to the start page please?

Seems sad to have it buried underneath two pages of "No chance of new investigation in Kennedy case" "Kennedy Curse dooming it's members" and "We will never know what happened".

Thanks!

Great idea, Frankie. With 95,000 views and over 1200 replies, I think this thread has more than earned that status.

[Ed LeDoux]

BUMP!
and
BUMP!

Edited November 21, 2013 by Ed LeDoux

[Malcolm Ward]

Byrd,the owner of the TSBD new some important and influential people.

Dallas oilman David Harold Byrd, born April 24, 1900, was the cousin of Admiral Richard E. Byrd and his brother, Senator Harry F. Byrd, "the leader of conservative opinion in the United States."³⁰⁵ D.H. Byrd owned the Texas School Book Depository building from the 1930s to the 1970s. In May 1964, he had the "Oswald window" removed and kept it as part of his estate.³⁰⁶ In 1972, after Byrd sold the building to Mr. Aubrey Mayhew, an arsonist set it on fire. It was saved, however. Shortly thereafter Mayhew defaulted on his payments to Republic National Bank of Dallas³⁰⁷ and the property reverted to the Byrd family.³⁰⁸ In 1975 Byrd sold it again.³⁰⁹

Byrd had a close relationship with both Lyndon Johnson and John Connally. Evidently not satisfied with being the cousin of a powerful and respected U.S. senator,³¹⁰ for D.H. Byrd, "Another goal was to reach a rapport with the politicians who ran things, especially at the seat of state government in Austin....Sam Rayburn, Morrie Sheppard, John Connally, and Lyndon Johnson on the national scene were to become men I could go to any time that I wanted action, and so were a succession of Texas governors. Among the ablest was John Connally...who says he's in my debt for pleading his cause... with...Ida Nell (Nellie) Brill, Sweetheart of The University of Texas in 1940...."³¹¹

Byrd probably also knew George de Mohrenschildt, David Atlee Phillips and George Bush through the Dallas Petroleum Club.³¹² In 1945, future club member de Mohrenschildt obtained a masters degree in petroleum engineering after eighteen months at the University of Texas at Austin.³¹³ During that year he was investigated by the FBI and ONI.

That same year he worked under Warren W. Smith, president of Pantipec Oil, owned by the parents of William F. Buckley, Jr. Smith and de Mohrenschildt soon quit and formed the Cuban-Venezuelan Oil Voting Trust Company. When Castro took over, this company forfeited oil leases covering about half of Cuba. Jack Crichton of Army Intelligence Reserve Service, mentioned earlier, had also worked under Warren Smith at Pantipec, which sells to Sun Oil.³¹⁴ By 1957, George de Mohrenschildt had established himself in oil ventures ranging from wildcat drilling to aerial surveillance and had begun working for the CIA.³¹⁵

It is probable that Byrd knew David Ferrie and he definitely knew the very top Air Force brass through Civil Air Patrol (CAP). CAP Captain David Ferrie was CAP cadet Lee Harvey Oswald's trainer.³¹⁶

Source:

http://www.acorn.net/jfkplace/09../fp.back_issues/17th_Issue/rambler3.html

[Richard Hocking]

Over the course of this thread, several posters have commented on Prayerman's girth.

As a reminder to all, there is a woman standing on a lower step in front of PM. Her back and head obscure the left side of PM below his raised left elbow. We cannot see the boundary of the shirt on that side. Combine that with both PM's raised elbows drawing the shirt away from the trunk of the body... gauging his width is difficult.

[David Josephs]

Sean,

Well, I believe Truly was more involved in this plot than you seem to believe. I don't think it was a coincidence that Truly hired Oswald, and I don't think the floor laying project was a coincidence. Both events were preparations for the upcoming BIG event, and Truly probably knew that. Truly was the crucial figure in the framing of Oswald, so his participation was probably well planned in advance. And Truly truly did his job as they had expected.

Bjørn Gjerde

Great point Bjorn - additionally.... at what point in time does the affidavit that Baker wrote in 11/23, in significant detail, get dropped for the revised BAKER/TRULY lunchroom story??

Truly was bounding up the steps ahead of Baker... when they ran into someone on the stairs ... no doors, door window, coke machine, etc...

So we have a two month break between Baker then Truly... and between Nov 23 and March 14 Baker's story changes considerably...

How/When do you suppose TRULY becomes aware of the REVISED Baker/Oswald encounter?

and are there any records of Truly's statements in the papers or anywhere else that contradicts the revised story he tells?

TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER Wednesday, March 15, 1964

The testimony of Roy S. Truly was taken at 2:30 p.m., on May 14, 1964

Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

Edited November 21, 2013 by David Josephs

[Sean Murphy]

Great point Bjorn - additionally.... at what point in time does the affidavit that Baker wrote in 11/23, in significant detail, get dropped for the revised BAKER/TRULY lunchroom story??

Truly was bounding up the steps ahead of Baker... when they ran into someone on the stairs ... no doors, door window, coke machine, etc...

So we have a two month break between Baker then Truly... and between Nov 23 and March 14 Baker's story changes considerably...

How/When do you suppose TRULY becomes aware of the REVISED Baker/Oswald encounter?

and are there any records of Truly's statements in the papers or anywhere else that contradicts the revised story he tells?

TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER Wednesday, March 15, 1964

The testimony of Roy S. Truly was taken at 2:30 p.m., on May 14, 1964

Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

David,

Truly first told the basic second-floor lunchroom story late 11/22.

It was, as you note, markedly different to the story told in Marrion Baker's affidavit given several hours earlier.

And also markedly different to the first-floor Oswald-officer encounter everyone else had been talking about that day.

[Thomas Graves]

Sean,

Well, I believe Truly was more involved in this plot than you seem to believe. I don't think it was a coincidence that Truly hired Oswald, and I don't think the floor laying project was a coincidence. Both events were preparations for the upcoming BIG event, and Truly probably knew that. Truly was the crucial figure in the framing of Oswald, so his participation was probably well planned in advance. And Truly truly did his job as they had expected.

Bjørn Gjerde

[...]

Truly was bounding up the steps ahead of Baker... when they ran into someone on the stairs ... no doors, door window, coke machine, etc...

[...]

David,

Can you please support your statement, with documentary evidence, that Truly or Baker said that they'd encountered someone on the stairs?

I can't find it in Baker's affidavit of 11/22/63.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm

Thank you,

--Tommy

PS It's interesting to note that the light-brown-jacket-wearing guy Baker encountered "on the third or fourth floor" comes suspiciously close to CIA's "marked card" description of Oswald in Russia in late 1959. Oswald was 5'9" but weighed only 131 pounds at his autopsy. His own mother said that he never weighed more than 140 pounds in his life, if I remember correctly. I might be a little off on what Marguerite said, but whatever it was, it wasn't anywhere near 165 pounds. And didn't Howard Brennan somehow arrive at the conclusion that the shooter he'd seen in the sixth floor window was 5'9" and 165 pounds, which description was broadcast to the patrolling policemen right after the assassination, if my memory serves me well?

Edited November 21, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Sean Murphy]

PS It's interesting to note that the light-brown-jacket-wearing guy Baker encountered "on the third or fourth floor" comes suspiciously close to CIA's "marked card" description of Oswald in Russia in late 1959. Oswald was 5'9" but weighed only 131 pounds at his autopsy. His own mother said that he never weighed more than 140 pounds in his life, if I remember correctly. And didn't Howard Brennan somehow arrive at the conclusion that the shooter he'd seen in the sixth floor window was 5'9" and 165 pounds, which description was broadcast to the patrolling policemen right after the assassination, if my memory serves me well?

Tommy,

The too-good-to-be-true coincidence of Baker's and Brennan's 11/22 descriptions is indeed troubling.

I believe Baker went back to City Hall that afternoon and told his superiors the truth: he and the building manager went upstairs and saw and found nothing and nobody.

This caused consternation, so Baker was given the 'Oswald' description (as well as the detail as to 'tan jacket', which had come in either from Tippit witnesses or from someone at the Depository imperfectly recalling Oswald's tan shirt [CE151]) and instructed to go on the record with a phoney story about intercepting an employee who was obviously coming down the stairs.

Just as Baker was giving this affidavit, Oswald was brought in.

Baker was shocked when he recognised the suspect in custody as the man he had met at the front entrance.

Up to this point, he had assumed the affidavit was simply a white lie designed to nail a truly guilty man--and a cop-killer to boot.

How did Baker react to this sudden revelation that he was being enlisted to frame an innocent man?

He refused to make a positive ID of Oswald.

And he clammed up for several months.

[Thomas Graves]

PS It's interesting to note that the light-brown-jacket-wearing guy Baker encountered "on the third or fourth floor" comes suspiciously close to CIA's "marked card" description of Oswald in Russia in late 1959. Oswald was 5'9" but weighed only 131 pounds at his autopsy. His own mother said that he never weighed more than 140 pounds in his life, if I remember correctly. And didn't Howard Brennan somehow arrive at the conclusion that the shooter he'd seen in the sixth floor window was 5'9" and 165 pounds, which description was broadcast to the patrolling policemen right after the assassination, if my memory serves me well?

Tommy,

The too-good-to-be-true coincidence of Baker's and Brennan's 11/22 descriptions is indeed troubling.

I believe Baker went back to City Hall that afternoon and told his superiors the truth: he and the building manager went upstairs and saw and found nothing and nobody.

This caused consternation, so Baker was given the 'Oswald' description (as well as the detail as to 'tan jacket', which had come in either from Tippit witnesses or from someone at the Depository imperfectly recalling Oswald's tan shirt [CE151]) and instructed to go on the record with a phoney story about intercepting an employee who was obviously coming down the stairs.

Just as Baker was giving this affidavit, Oswald was brought in.

Baker was shocked when he recognised the suspect in custody as the man he had met at the front entrance.

Up to this point, he had assumed the affidavit was simply a white lie designed to nail a truly guilty man--and a cop-killer to boot.

How did Baker react to this sudden revelation that he was being enlisted to frame an innocent man?

He refused to make a positive ID of Oswald.

And he clammed up for several months.

[emphasis added by T. (Mahon) Graves]

Sean.

What you're saying here works for me.

It's ironic I suppose that you and I both believed a year or so ago that Baker's third-or-fourth-floor guy might have been the same guy as the "Tan Jacket Man" in the railroad yard / parking in the Robert Hughes. Right color jacket, apparent white spot on top of head, possible furtive hand off to possible Diaz Lanz guy next to him, etc, etc. But not the requisite (but possibly fabricated) 165 pounds, and, unfortunately, probably spotted as an innocent, umbrella-toting onlooker in other films or photos taken in Dealey Plaza.

--Tommy

Edited November 21, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

Great point Bjorn - additionally.... at what point in time does the affidavit that Baker wrote in 11/23, in significant detail, get dropped for the revised BAKER/TRULY lunchroom story??

Truly was bounding up the steps ahead of Baker... when they ran into someone on the stairs ... no doors, door window, coke machine, etc...

So we have a two month break between Baker then Truly... and between Nov 23 and March 14 Baker's story changes considerably...

How/When do you suppose TRULY becomes aware of the REVISED Baker/Oswald encounter?

and are there any records of Truly's statements in the papers or anywhere else that contradicts the revised story he tells?

TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER Wednesday, March 15, 1964

The testimony of Roy S. Truly was taken at 2:30 p.m., on May 14, 1964

Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

David,

Truly first told the basic second-floor lunchroom story late 11/22.

It was, as you note, markedly different to the story told in Marrion Baker's affidavit given several hours earlier.

And also markedly different to the first-floor Oswald-officer encounter everyone else had been talking about that day.

Sean - can you please cite the source for that... WHO did he tell this too and HOW was it recorded...

Between 3:15 and 4:15 is when Fritz's page 1 of 5 notes that Oswald:

"claims 2nd floor Coke when

off came in"

Whether that note was taken at that time or remembered later would dovetail to WHEN Truly makes his statement....

personnally I don't think this and the Baker/Truly story are connected... until THEY connect it.

Either this "off" was Baker and Oswald fails to mention anything more about it... or it was NOT BAKER, and Oswald did say it yet we are talking about a different timeline and instance

Baker and Truly IMO, did not encounter Oswald at all.

thanks for the help

DJ

Tommy:

"As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway"

"I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me"

To me, each landing is part of the stairs.... if you look at the 2nd floor diagram (CE497) we see there is only one way (other than the stairs) onto that landing and that's thru the vestibule door (I have yet to find a diagram of the 3rd or 4th floors - wonder why?)

With this man's BACK TO HIM it is hard to imagine him coming down the stairs at that moment as the person would be FACE TO FACE with Baker after having passed Truly...

So his affidavit yet again suggests that not only was it not Oswald, but that this person had been coming UP the stairs and was walking AWAY from the stairs when Baker sees "him"... for him to turn around.

Which in turn would mean this person had just gone up the stairs seconds before Truly and Baker... which is why TRULY does not encounter him first.

Now add this to that and yet another possibility arises... OSWALD WAS IN THE LUNCHROOM... yet Baker and Truly never stopped on the 2nd floor and only encountered a person walking from the stairs on the 3rd or 4th floor landing.

1) Sawyer goes to the 4th floor in the elevator after letting "this man" leave the elevator without being stopped or questioned... and then leaves the men he went up with - there on the 4th floor.

2) Maybe it's just me, yet this exchange with Mrs Reid SCREAMS to me that Oswald was still in that room when she leaves.... you can almost hear the fear in her voice...

Mr. BELIN. All right. When you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls?

Mrs. REID. No; I didn't. The younger girls had gone and I left alone.

Mr. BELIN. Were you the last person in the lunchroom?

Mrs. REID. No; I could not say that because I don't remember that part of it because I was going out of the building by myself, I wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all.

Mr. BELIN. Were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there?

Mrs. REID. I can't, I don't, remember that.

Mr. BELIN. All right.

Mrs. REID. I can't remember the time they left.

[Sean Murphy]

Great point Bjorn - additionally.... at what point in time does the affidavit that Baker wrote in 11/23, in significant detail, get dropped for the revised BAKER/TRULY lunchroom story??

Truly was bounding up the steps ahead of Baker... when they ran into someone on the stairs ... no doors, door window, coke machine, etc...

So we have a two month break between Baker then Truly... and between Nov 23 and March 14 Baker's story changes considerably...

How/When do you suppose TRULY becomes aware of the REVISED Baker/Oswald encounter?

and are there any records of Truly's statements in the papers or anywhere else that contradicts the revised story he tells?

TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER Wednesday, March 15, 1964

The testimony of Roy S. Truly was taken at 2:30 p.m., on May 14, 1964

Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

David,

Truly first told the basic second-floor lunchroom story late 11/22.

It was, as you note, markedly different to the story told in Marrion Baker's affidavit given several hours earlier.

And also markedly different to the first-floor Oswald-officer encounter everyone else had been talking about that day.

Sean - can you please cite the source for that... WHO did he tell this too and HOW was it recorded...

Here it is, David.