Jump to content
The Education Forum
William Kelly

Oswald Leaving TSBD?

Recommended Posts

Great point Bjorn - additionally.... at what point in time does the affidavit that Baker wrote in 11/23, in significant detail, get dropped for the revised BAKER/TRULY lunchroom story??

Truly was bounding up the steps ahead of Baker... when they ran into someone on the stairs ... no doors, door window, coke machine, etc...

So we have a two month break between Baker then Truly... and between Nov 23 and March 14 Baker's story changes considerably...

How/When do you suppose TRULY becomes aware of the REVISED Baker/Oswald encounter?

and are there any records of Truly's statements in the papers or anywhere else that contradicts the revised story he tells?

TESTIMONY OF MARRION L. BAKER Wednesday, March 15, 1964

The testimony of Roy S. Truly was taken at 2:30 p.m., on May 14, 1964

Mr. TRULY. I suppose I was up two or three steps before I realized the officer wasn't following me.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. TRULY. I came back to the second floor landing.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of 24.

Mr. BELIN. All right. And I see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom.

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

Mr. BELIN. What did you do then?

Mr. TRULY. I ran over and looked in this door No. 23.

Mr. BELIN. Through the glass, or was the door open?

Mr. TRULY. I don't know. I think I opened the door. I feel like I did. I don't remember.

Mr. BELIN. It could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember?

Mr. TRULY. The chances are it was closed.

Mr. BELIN. You thought you opened it?

Mr. TRULY. I think I opened it. I opened the door back and leaned in this way.

Mr. BELIN. What did you see?

Mr. TRULY. I saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunch-room facing Lee Harvey Oswald.

David,

Truly first told the basic second-floor lunchroom story late 11/22.

It was, as you note, markedly different to the story told in Marrion Baker's affidavit given several hours earlier.

And also markedly different to the first-floor Oswald-officer encounter everyone else had been talking about that day.

Sean - can you please cite the source for that... WHO did he tell this too and HOW was it recorded...

Here it is, David.

APO6H49.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway"

"I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me"

The story told by Baker is clear and maximally damning of the 'man':

  1. He and Truly were coming up the stairs together, Baker leading.
  2. As they were reaching the third or fourth floor (i.e. both of them just reaching the landing--not Truly way ahead already halfway up to the next floor), Baker (being in front) was the first to spot a man walking away from the stairway up which Baker and Truly were running.
  3. The man had clearly been on his way down when he had heard Baker & Truly running up, so he had turned tail and started walking away from the stairway.
  4. But not quickly enough--Baker saw him walking away.
  5. Baker immediately called out to him (i.e. without running 20 feet over to a door, opening the door and hollering).
  6. The man came back to Baker's location at the top of the stairway.

The man, we have been given to understand in no uncertain terms, was escaping down the building by the rear stairway.

And that's how Fritz will describe the incident to Curry on 23 Dec: "Baker says that he stopped this man on the third or fourth floor on the stairway" (my emphasis).

Fritz, fully a month after the assassination, knows nothing about the second-floor lunchroom incident.

This despite the 'fact' that, as he will tell the WC months later, Oswald had personally confirmed the details of said lunchroom incident in custody!

Oswald never confirmed the lunchroom incident.

Nor did he confirm a rear stairway incident.

Instead he talked about an incident at the front entrance.

And he was telling the truth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes indeed, TWO seperate incidences combined into one incriminating bit of evidence...

(on a side note, you see how Baker mentions his affidavit three times in testimony with Dulles/Baker sidestepping it each time....)

From this one statement / FBI report we establish

1) that Baker's affidavit is perjury or this report is... and was easily backdated (this is once again an uncorroborated, unsigned statement that could have been written up most any time)

2) that TRULY believes, while standing out in front of the TSBD, that the shots came from the RR yard (as did O. Campbell the man standing next to him)

3) that in the 2-3 minutes after the shooting the people who left the 4th floor via the stairs (Adams) testify to NO ONE coming down or up at that time... and that a woman with Adams sees Baker/Truly going past them and up the back stairs...

Baker and Truly saw someone else... and like so many give conflicting statements that lead to perjury of one, the other or both.

Also... if TRULY saw Oswald immediately after the shooting... and knows where he saw him last... why does he claim that OSWALD is the only employee that is not accounted for? We both know he could not have been aware of every TSBD employee's whereabouts at that moment (Givens had left as well just to name one), yet OSWALD was on TRULY's mind for some reason...

His exchange about telling Fritz thru Lumpkin is CLASSIC and helps support the idea that the rifle was BROUGHT to the 6th floor and not found there....

Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him?
Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the rifle.
Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time?
Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle.
Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the building?
Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building.
Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was found?
Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your talk with Fritz?
Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor?
Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth floor, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there?
Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me.
Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address?
Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had been found?
Mr. TRULY. I don't remember who I learned this from----
Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only.
Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned the rifle was found, but I did not see it. (AMAZING right? They are all standing around where the rifle is found picked up shell ejected etc... but it's not there)
Mr. BALL. All right. Now, was it before or after you told Captain Fritz the name and address of Lee Oswald, that you learned that the rifle was found?
Mr. TRULY. I can't remember, I believe it was afterwards.
Mr. BALL. You are sure it was after you told Captain Fritz---after what, you tell me?
Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in ,the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men---officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz.
Mr. BALL. What did you tell him?
Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing---I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left the sixth floor shortly.
While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and sometime---someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know who it was.
Mr. BALL. About that time?
Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I don'.t recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no occasion to go back up there.
Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address?
Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes.
Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?
Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock?
Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock.
Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place.
Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct?
Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there.
Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer.
Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that?
Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1. (to be fair, Fritz did not get back to TSBD until 12:58... rifle was found 1:22...)
Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1?
Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory.
Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. I don't think so-
--I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so.
Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate?
Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination.
Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes.
Mr. BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the name and address?
Mr. TRULY. I think it was immediately.
Mr. BALL. Immediately?
Mr. TRULY. Immediately, after I called to the warehouse and got his name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told Captain Fritz at that time.
Mr. BALL. Chief Lumpkin?
Mr. TRULY. Yes; Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. BALL. Yes; Chief Lumpkin.
Mr. TRULY. And I remember Chief Lumpkin talking to two or three officers and I stepped back and he went ahead and told them a few things--it could have been 2 or 3 or 4 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Not over that?
Mr. TRULY. I don't believe so, and then he came to me and said, "All right, Mr. Truly, let's go up and see Captain Fritz and tell him this."
Mr. BALL. Then, if the gun wasn't found until after 1:10, you think it might have been as late as 1:05 or so before you discovered that Oswald wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. It could be--it could have been.
Mr. BALL. You have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he was not there?
Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I didn't believe after thinking things over--it was over in 15 or 20 minutes after the shots were fired, but after retracing my trip to the roof and the time delay and back, I would have to say that it was farther along in the day than I had believed, so it could have been I or 1:05 or something like that.
Mr. BALL. Before you discovered Oswald wasn't there?
Mr. TRULY. That's right, and at such time that you have information of the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that I noticed that this boy wasn't among the other workers.

Mr. BALL. You remember you had seen him on the second floor, didn't you?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.
Mr. BALL. That's when you were with Officer Baker?
Mr. TRULY. That's right.

And that's the end of THAT... "If you saw OSWALD in the Lunchroom just a short while before, why did you tell DPD that he was the only one not there Mr Truly ??... you knew exactly where he was, or at least THOUGHT he was"

but then it would have had to be a REAL investigation.... not so much

DJ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

David, the most significant words in Truly's 11/22 statement are:

"... and he accompanied the officer into the front of the building. They saw no one there..."

Why is Truly even telling us this?

Because the 'no one' he and the officer saw there, in the front of the building, is in custody.

And he's talking.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After several weeks of canvassing hardline Lone Nut Theory believers over on Duncan's forum for credible alternatives to Oswald as Prayer Man, the results are as follows:

They've got nothing.

They've thrown the world and his brother at that doorway, and not a single suggestion has come close to holding up under close inspection.

It started with Steve Barber taking one look at Prayer Man and identifying him confidently as Billy Lovelady.

And that about set the standard intellectually for the WC defenders' subsequent suggestions.

**

Meanwhile over on alt.assassination.jfk, Lone Nut propagandist John McAdams has blocked discussion of the topic--while happily facilitating endless discussion of Ralph Cinque's barmy Altgens-Doorman claims.

Prayer Man is evidently too toxic for Professor Factoid.

**

As of this, the 50th anniversary of President Kennedy's assassination, there remains only one viable candidate for Prayer Man:

ZACYFZQ.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...

Meanwhile over on alt.assassination.jfk, Lone Nut propagandist John McAdams has blocked discussion of the topic--while happily facilitating endless discussion of Ralph Cinque's barmy Altgens-Doorman claims.

Prayer Man is evidently too toxic for Professor Factoid.

**

As of this, the 50th anniversary of President Kennedy's assassination, there remains only one viable candidate for Prayer Man:

Sean,

was any reason given for blocking the discussion? I am curious now if there are other topics that have been blocked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...

Meanwhile over on alt.assassination.jfk, Lone Nut propagandist John McAdams has blocked discussion of the topic--while happily facilitating endless discussion of Ralph Cinque's barmy Altgens-Doorman claims.

Prayer Man is evidently too toxic for Professor Factoid.

**

As of this, the 50th anniversary of President Kennedy's assassination, there remains only one viable candidate for Prayer Man:

Sean,

was any reason given for blocking the discussion? I am curious now if there are other topics that have been blocked.

Richard,

No, it's as if the topic doesn't exist. On the (very) rare occasions Prayer Man does get a passing mention, it is strictly in the context of a Cinque-focused discussion. The policy is clear: force an association of Prayer Man with Cinque's nonsense.

The editors of Pravda ca. 1975 would have been proud of McAdams's performance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It also seems funny that Oswald is singled out as missing when the majority of the TSBD workers were leaving the building as it was locked down and being sent home so the police could plan...err...find evidence...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

David, the most significant words in Truly's 11/22 statement are:

"... and he accompanied the officer into the front of the building. They saw no one there..."

Why is Truly even telling us this?

Because the 'no one' he and the officer saw there, in the front of the building, is in custody.

And he's talking.

This statement reminds me (in a twisted kind of way) of Billy Lovelady's testifying that although he and Shelley "saw a girl on the first floor, but I couldn't swear that it was Vicki Adams."

But he wasn't asked if the girl was Vicki Adams. He volunteers this statement about Vicki Adams out of the blue.

Which suggests that Lovelady had been told to say he had seen Vicki Adams on the first floor, but he hadn't.

LOL

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...

Meanwhile over on alt.assassination.jfk, Lone Nut propagandist John McAdams has blocked discussion of the topic--while happily facilitating endless discussion of Ralph Cinque's barmy Altgens-Doorman claims.

Prayer Man is evidently too toxic for Professor Factoid.

**

As of this, the 50th anniversary of President Kennedy's assassination, there remains only one viable candidate for Prayer Man:

Sean,

was any reason given for blocking the discussion? I am curious now if there are other topics that have been blocked.

Richard,

No, it's as if the topic doesn't exist. On the (very) rare occasions Prayer Man does get a passing mention, it is strictly in the context of a Cinque-focused discussion. The policy is clear: force an association of Prayer Man with Cinque's nonsense.

The editors of Pravda ca. 1975 would have been proud of McAdams's performance.

Ahhhh yes.

Makes sense from a Mockingbird point of view.

With heightened attention focused on the JFK 50th, best not to let a morsel of Prayerman slip out for the public to digest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Below is a crop from one of the William Allen photos:

BottleTopStepNWCorner_zps2bdaa856.jpg

Can't tell if it is a Coke bottle, Dr. Pepper or other. Not sure who left it there, but the location is interesting.

Looks like there may be a bag or some other item in front of the bottom of the bottle.

There is another William Allen photo that shows a portion of the bottle from a different angle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a crop from another William Allen photo from a slightly different angle

BottleTopStep2_zpsaef143ac.jpg

Top of the bottle visible in this photo.

Who was drinking a soda in that corner a short time before the police arrived?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

quote:

Can't tell if it is a Coke bottle, Dr. Pepper or other. Not sure who left it there, but the location is interesting.

Looks like there may be a bag or some other item in front of the bottom of the bottle.

There is another William Allen photo that shows a portion of the bottle from a different angle.

William Allen photo

Pict_essay_thomasbugfritz_2_marvinjohnso

Cop holding Dr Pepper bottle.

Click on thumbnail to view FULL SIZE

bag~0.jpg

Edited by Robin Unger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

look at these clowns fondling the evidence...

i know it was 1963 and in nut country, but Perry Mason had been on tee vee how long at this point?

and there is the four foot bag again...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...