Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Richard Hocking]

It has been suggested to me that the height of man in the doorway - aka "Prayer Man," can be determined if the height of the door is known. This could eliminate Oswald or it could keep him in the running, though not positively confirm it.

If the man is Oswald, he shouldn't have the coke bottle in his hand until after he buys it.

In the C/D film the man in the door way is there when Baker rushes past him immediately after the assassination.

If Oswald, he would then have to go back inside, up the stairs just inside the door and through the offices to the vestibule of the Lunchroom where he is seen by Baker through the window of the closed door. He then has the encounter with Baker and Truly and then buys his coke, leaving the same way he came in.

Then, if this film sequence is three to five minutes after the last shot, you see the same man walking down the steps - does he have the coke now?

▶ L.H. Oswald Leaving TSBD November 22 1963? - YouTube

It's a good idea Bill, but there are some important unknown variables that will make this very difficult --

- is Prayer Man on the very top step or one step down?

- is Prayer Man standing straight up or is he slouching a bit?

- the distance from Prayer Man to the Lens compared to the distance from the door to the Camera Lens will be a factor

I am sure there are more considerations, but you can see where any of the above is capable of throwing off the measurement.

[Richard Hocking]

From a May 24th 1964 New York Herald Tribune article by Dom Bonafede titled 'The Picture With a Life of Its Own':

Why would the FBI be relieved?

How could Oswald's showing up in a front entrance image have been considered even a remote possibility?

I mean, it's not as if Oswald himself was claiming to have been out front... was it?

We know Oswald (via Fritz's vague notes) made reference to being out front with Bill Shelley.

We also know Shelley was out on the steps several minutes before and during the assassination, but then left with Lovelady for the Rail yard within a few seconds of the last shot.

How could LHO have known Shelley's location if he had not seen him there?

If Oswald had indeed been with Shelley, it had to occur during the time referenced above when Shelley was on the steps.

[Richard Hocking]

I think that this does put Oswald outside as the "prayer man". He said that he went outside to see what all the excitement was (not to watch the parade). This would mean, in my opinion, that he just stepped outside to see why there was so much moving about, running, etc., then back in the building and on to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get a coke. and, it my remembrance as well that Officer Baker wrote that LHO had a coke in his hand and that part was later marked out.

Hello Mr. Adams

I have heard before, as you stated, that Oswald said he went outside to see what the excitement was all about following the shots, but I have never been able to find the source of this. Do you know when and to whom he was supposed to have said this?

More specifically, did Oswald actually refer to the excitement as being the commotion following the assassination? He may have been referring to the crowd outside the TSBD seeing JFK coming down Houston St. and the resulting elevation in excitement.

What a pity Oswald never lived to stand trial.

Hello Robert, here is what I found on that; WC testimony of postal inspector Harry D. Holmes on the score of what Oswald said in custody on the Sunday morning:

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.

Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?

Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.

Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

...

Mr. HOLMES. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.

But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.

He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."

Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."

And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

Excellent find, Terry.

You have to wonder what Oswald meant by "vestibule". Did he mean the area between the inner and outer doors, or was he referring to the covered Entry steps and porch (which I have been referring to as an "alcove")? If it is the latter, it would be strong evidence of Baker encountering Oswald at Prayer Man's location. Even if LHO meant inside the door, it is still only a couple steps away.

Another item that comes to mind: Greg Parker and, I believe, Lee Farley (both contributors to this site) some time ago presented a strong case that the 2nd floor encounter between Oswald and Baker never happened on the 2nd floor, but rather somewhere else ... food for thought.

If I can find the link, I will post it.

Mr. Hocking

I was just thinking the same thing and was about to put it in a post. You are correct, I do recall hearing that the 2nd floor encounter may never have occurred on the 2nd floor at all. I can't quite recall where I heard it but, someone also claimed there was reference to a 4th floor meeting. Does this sound familiar to you? Anyone?

Robert, I can tell you some of the basics I recall from memory:

- The Oswald 2nd floor lunch room encounter with Baker was not in Baker's original report.

- The same report listed an encounter on the 4th floor between Baker and a man that Roy Truly vouched for as being an employee.

- A few days after the original report, Baker issued a "revised" report that now contained the famous lunch room encounter.

I know Oswald's encounter with Mrs. Reid and the coke was also discussed ...

[William Kelly]

I think that this does put Oswald outside as the "prayer man". He said that he went outside to see what all the excitement was (not to watch the parade). This would mean, in my opinion, that he just stepped outside to see why there was so much moving about, running, etc., then back in the building and on to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get a coke. and, it my remembrance as well that Officer Baker wrote that LHO had a coke in his hand and that part was later marked out.

Hello Mr. Adams

I have heard before, as you stated, that Oswald said he went outside to see what the excitement was all about following the shots, but I have never been able to find the source of this. Do you know when and to whom he was supposed to have said this?

More specifically, did Oswald actually refer to the excitement as being the commotion following the assassination? He may have been referring to the crowd outside the TSBD seeing JFK coming down Houston St. and the resulting elevation in excitement.

What a pity Oswald never lived to stand trial.

Hello Robert, here is what I found on that; WC testimony of postal inspector Harry D. Holmes on the score of what Oswald said in custody on the Sunday morning:

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.

Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?

Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.

Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

...

Mr. HOLMES. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.

But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.

He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."

Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."

And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

Excellent find, Terry.

You have to wonder what Oswald meant by "vestibule". Did he mean the area between the inner and outer doors, or was he referring to the covered Entry steps and porch (which I have been referring to as an "alcove")? If it is the latter, it would be strong evidence of Baker encountering Oswald at Prayer Man's location. Even if LHO meant inside the door, it is still only a couple steps away.

Another item that comes to mind: Greg Parker and, I believe, Lee Farley (both contributors to this site) some time ago presented a strong case that the 2nd floor encounter between Oswald and Baker never happened on the 2nd floor, but rather somewhere else ... food for thought.

If I can find the link, I will post it.

I think that the mention of "vestibule" refers to what is known as the vestibule of the Second Floor Lunchroom, a small three door entrance way - one door leading West - that Oswald would have had to go through if he was the Sixth Floor Sniper, another door leading South,which is the door that he left by with the coke in hand that leads to the offices and steps to the front door, and the East door that is always open and is the entrance to the lunchroom.

The case against the Second Floor Lunchroom encounter is based primarily on the fact that in his Nov. 22 statement, Baker said that he encountered a man on the fourth floor, and makes no mention of the Second Floor encounter, though this would require both Baker and Truly to lie, and the motive - to implicate Oswald, actually exonerates him. And this subject should be discussed further in the treads devoted to that subject - including the one I started Doors of Perception - JFKcountercoup: THE DOORS OF PERCEPTION - WHY OSWALD IS NOT GUILTY - and not here.

I think we can and should positively identify the man in the brown shirt in the TSBD doorway as seen in the two/three? films taken in the immediate 1-5 minutes aftermath of the assassination, aka "Prayer Man."

As for the height measurements, I think it could be worthwhile for someone who knows the numbers to try to figure it out, but I can't do it.

BK

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

[...]

[...]

Bill Kelley wrote:

[...]

... the man in the brown shirt in the TSBD doorway ... aka "Prayer Man."

[..]

Dear Mr. Kelly,

"Brown shirt"?

How can you tell that Prayer Man is wearing a brown shirt?

It seems to me that everything in Duncan's enhancment is brown.

Sincerely,

--Tommy

Edited August 19, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Sean Murphy]

Oswald allegedly told Fritz he wore a reddish-coloured shirt that day and changed it for the 'arrest shirt' back at his Oak Cliff rooming house.

[Thomas Graves]

Oswald allegedly told Fritz he wore a reddish-coloured shirt that day and changed it for the 'arrest shirt' back at his Oak Cliff rooming house.

Sean,

I was asking Mr. Kelly how he knows that the person we're calling "Prayer Man" is wearing a brown shirt (or a reddish one for that matter) in Duncan's big, brownish enhancement.

The point I was trying to make is that it's impossible to tell what color shirt PM is wearing in that image.

--Tommy

Edited August 19, 2013 by Thomas Graves

[Sean Murphy]

We see Lovelady shielding his eyes from the sunlight.

But is he also reacting to something just behind him and to his right (the Prayer Man position)?*

Just after these frames, Lovelady will move across noticeably to his left (ie east).

Here, for context, is the longer loop from Hughes:

*(Credit for Hughes film gifs: Gerda Dunckel)

[William Kelly]

In the Hughes film above, who is the man in blue shirt who puts both hands up?

And that's Lovelady next to him - with the open brownish button shirt and white t-shirt, right?

And Tommy, as for my statement that the shirt in the original picture is brown - you are correct,

I don't know it is brown, but it is clearly not white - and in the future I will refer to it as being dark.

Edited August 19, 2013 by William Kelly

[Robert Prudhomme]

In the Hughes film above, who is the man in blue shirt who puts both hands up?

And that's Lovelady next to him - with the open brownish button shirt and white t-shirt, right?

And Tommy, as for my statement that the shirt in the original picture is brown - you are correct,

I don't know it is brown, but it is clearly not white - and in the future I will refer to it as being dark.

The man in the blue shirt, raising his arms in the air, is on the opposite side of Elm St. from the TSBD. I believe that person is actually standing on the pergola wall.

[Richard Hocking]

I think that this does put Oswald outside as the "prayer man". He said that he went outside to see what all the excitement was (not to watch the parade). This would mean, in my opinion, that he just stepped outside to see why there was so much moving about, running, etc., then back in the building and on to the 2nd floor lunchroom to get a coke. and, it my remembrance as well that Officer Baker wrote that LHO had a coke in his hand and that part was later marked out.

Hello Mr. Adams

I have heard before, as you stated, that Oswald said he went outside to see what the excitement was all about following the shots, but I have never been able to find the source of this. Do you know when and to whom he was supposed to have said this?

More specifically, did Oswald actually refer to the excitement as being the commotion following the assassination? He may have been referring to the crowd outside the TSBD seeing JFK coming down Houston St. and the resulting elevation in excitement.

What a pity Oswald never lived to stand trial.

Hello Robert, here is what I found on that; WC testimony of postal inspector Harry D. Holmes on the score of what Oswald said in custody on the Sunday morning:

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?

Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.

Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?

Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.

Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?

Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

...

Mr. HOLMES. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down.

But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.

He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."

Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."

And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

Excellent find, Terry.

You have to wonder what Oswald meant by "vestibule". Did he mean the area between the inner and outer doors, or was he referring to the covered Entry steps and porch (which I have been referring to as an "alcove")? If it is the latter, it would be strong evidence of Baker encountering Oswald at Prayer Man's location. Even if LHO meant inside the door, it is still only a couple steps away.

Another item that comes to mind: Greg Parker and, I believe, Lee Farley (both contributors to this site) some time ago presented a strong case that the 2nd floor encounter between Oswald and Baker never happened on the 2nd floor, but rather somewhere else ... food for thought.

If I can find the link, I will post it.

I think that the mention of "vestibule" refers to what is known as the vestibule of the Second Floor Lunchroom, a small three door entrance way - one door leading West - that Oswald would have had to go through if he was the Sixth Floor Sniper, another door leading South,which is the door that he left by with the coke in hand that leads to the offices and steps to the front door, and the East door that is always open and is the entrance to the lunchroom.

The case against the Second Floor Lunchroom encounter is based primarily on the fact that in his Nov. 22 statement, Baker said that he encountered a man on the fourth floor, and makes no mention of the Second Floor encounter, though this would require both Baker and Truly to lie, and the motive - to implicate Oswald, actually exonerates him. And this subject should be discussed further in the treads devoted to that subject - including the one I started Doors of Perception - JFKcountercoup: THE DOORS OF PERCEPTION - WHY OSWALD IS NOT GUILTY - and not here.

I think we can and should positively identify the man in the brown shirt in the TSBD doorway as seen in the two/three? films taken in the immediate 1-5 minutes aftermath of the assassination, aka "Prayer Man."

As for the height measurements, I think it could be worthwhile for someone who knows the numbers to try to figure it out, but I can't do it.

BK

You are referring to the vestibule on the second floor.

In my reply to Terry Adams, I was referring to the vestibule on the first floor entrance where Oswald had an encounter with a police officer and a reporter as referenced by Terry in his quote of Harry Holmes.

[Richard Hocking]

In the Hughes film above, who is the man in blue shirt who puts both hands up?

And that's Lovelady next to him - with the open brownish button shirt and white t-shirt, right?

And Tommy, as for my statement that the shirt in the original picture is brown - you are correct,

I don't know it is brown, but it is clearly not white - and in the future I will refer to it as being dark.

The man in the blue shirt, raising his arms in the air, is on the opposite side of Elm St. from the TSBD. I believe that person is actually standing on the pergola wall.

And I believe it is a girl. She is much closer to the camera, so she appears larger than the figures in the doorway.

Add Edit: And her name is Toni Glover. If anyone is interested, here is a link to the girl on the pedestal:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=6209.120;wap2

Edited August 19, 2013 by Richard Hocking

[William Kelly]

Okay, I get it. And the guy in the doorway with the open brownish shirt and white t-shirt - that's Lovelady, right?

[Sean Murphy]

Vestibule: front lobby of a building.

[William Kelly]

Vestibule: front lobby of a building.

ves·ti·bule (vst-byl)

n.

1. A small entrance hall or passage between the outer door and the interior of a house or building.

2. An enclosed area at the end of a passenger car on a railroad train.

3. Anatomy A cavity, chamber, or channel that leads to or is an entrance to another cavity: the vestibule to the ear.

[Latin vestibulum.]

While the front entrance TSBD could refer to 1., it also could refer to the little alcove - a rectangle shaped chamber sandwiched by three doors at the entrance to the Second Floor Lunchroom - the small nine square feet space where Oswald was seen by Baker through the window of the closed West door to that vestibule.

In this context however, Belin asked Holmes what Oswald said about being stopped by Baker - in which Holmes says vestibule for the first time - and apparently two sets of doors - and it appears he is talking about the Oswald encounter with Baker in the Second Floor Lunchroom vestibule - but then he says First Floor and begins to describe Oswald directing a newsman to a telephone and then walking out the front door.

It seems that just because Holmes is confused here doesn't mean we should be.

Holmes' report on the final interrogation of Oswald is really interesting:

JFKCountercoup2: Interrogations of Oswald

Since I've been referring to the vestibule of the second floor lunchroom and Holmes' vestibule is confusing, I'd prefer to just refer to the front door as the front door. I don't think there was an enclosed space at the front door, or a hall, but once you got inside, there is a room with a sweeping staircase to the left and an elevator that only went to fourth floor, and on the right a row of senior executive offices and in the back right corner was the First Floor Lunchroom.

If the "Praying Man" is Oswald it seems like he would have had to make two appearances at the front door - the first to check out the commotion, when Baker runs past him, and then again, two minutes later when he has the coke and leaves - that's when the reporter asks him for a phone.

I always thought that if the Warren Commission was right about anything - and Oswald did walk out the front door at 12:33 and left, then there should be a photo or film of him doing so.

Edited August 19, 2013 by William Kelly