James R Gordon Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 David, An interesting picture. The quality of the image does not allow certainty, but it appears to me that no windows on the 4th floor of the west side are open. The middle window may be the one members are thinking about. I believe the TSBD windows did not open flush, i.e. only the divider being seen when the lower window is fully open. When the lower window was opened fully the lower edge of the window could still be seen Although hard to see, we can see part of the lower window wood ribs between the panes, suggesting the window is actually closed. We can see a person standing behind the south 4th floor window. However the sixth floor south window is open. Not very wide, but it is open. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Richard: Your suspicion of a shooter(s) in a West-facing window makes sense, of course, and perhaps I should not dismiss such a strategic position. I'm making the classic mistake of trying to put myself in the plotters' "shoes" and applying my own logic to something that's unfortunately so speculative 50 years later. Whenever I take the entire assassination story up to 1,000 feet, I'm always left with an over-arching conclusion that the people who set this up were expert in such matters, and therefore had contingency plans in place, along with ground-level precautions such as using police (and "sweepers") to control evidence and eyewitnesses. Therefore, the TSBD becomes (for me) a place to draw attention and to incriminate Oswald ... a pure head fake or diversionary measure (like the stalled pickup truck, the ambulance, canyon fire, Tippit's murder). Someone once posted an intelligence strategy akin to magic, where such slight-of-hand and illusionary tactics are applied to an operation like this. That's why I have difficulty in allowing actual shooters to be positioned in the TSBD. I do still like David's idea that we need to think in terms of two Oswald's in trying to unravel this story. One excellent outfall of this thread is that I no longer take as gospel the lunchroom legend, or the written statements about Baker, Truly, and the coke... as David put it so well, the eyewitness accounts are accurate but none of the "evidence" seems to hold water. And if Prayer Man is indeed Oswald, then this becomes a real game-breaker. Gene Gene - I've been spending the last 6 months or so pulling Armstrong's H&L apart and creating a side-by-side timeline which easily illustrates the H&L conflicts... After I am done and I check it thru with John I will be ready to put forth a paper - like Cliff notes - to the mass of info he pulled together. No One has gone to the extent as John has... and in most cases the Baylor collection has copies of original docs in their entirety... Something to remember is the "editing" job the WCR writers/lawyers performed for the commissioners... the WC's only got to see what they were shown... if at all. Conclusions were drawn based on incomplete, altered, created and forged docs done systematically by the FBI... I doubt they were even shown this affidavit. --- As one reads his handwriting... that TRULY "knows this person" yet does not name him at the time or subsequently, and is NEVER asked about the situation or the man Baker describes is to me, well amazing. Between this and the two rifle affidavits - which are instruments of legal evidence which in turn constitutes perjury. An individual who lies about the content within an affidavit may be sued for perjury and can also be subject to the sentence given to others who lie under oath if he or she is convicted of perjury - See more at: http://court.laws.com/affidavit#sthash.xTivxHlV.dpuf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 (edited) David, An interesting picture. The quality of the image does not allow certainty, but it appears to me that no windows on the 4th floor of the west side are open. The middle window may be the one members are thinking about. I believe the TSBD windows did not open flush, i.e. only the divider being seen when the lower window is fully open. When the lower window was opened fully the lower edge of the window could still be seen Although hard to see, we can see part of the lower window wood ribs between the panes, suggesting the window is actually closed. We can see a person standing behind the south 4th floor window. However the sixth floor south window is open. Not very wide, but it is open. James The important thing is that the 6th floor WEST facing window is open - the corner Dillard catches that person... a step to the right and that person is at this other window... RE: the 4th floor - I always go back to Sawyer and his strange movements from 12:34-12:37 Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do? You went inside the building, is that correct? Mr. SAWYER. We immediately went inside the building. I took--I believe Sgt. Harkness may have gone with me. I am not positive of that. Mr. BELIN. Was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down? Mr. SAWYER. Best of my recollection, it was there. Mr. BELIN. You got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. How long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to? (DJ - THE ELEVATOR THEY TOOK ONLY WENT TO THE 4TH FLOOR) Mr. SAWYER. Just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. I doubt if it took over a minute at the most. Mr. BELIN. To go up and look around and come down? Mr. SAWYER. To look around on the floor. How long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over 3 minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down. Mr. BELIN. Then that would put it around no sooner than 12:37, if you heard the call at 12:34? Mr. SAWYER. Yes, sir. Mr. BELIN. Then you got down and what did you do? Mr. SAWYER. I asked the Sergeant to double check the security around the building, and then I took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out. (THEY DIDN'T LISTEN OR IMPLEMENT THIS ORDER) Mr. BELIN. And then what did the officers tell you? Mr. SAWYER. That their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Mr. BELIN. Did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the Texas School Book Depository, at that particular time? Mr. SAWYER. I can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a reference also made to the overpass Edited January 4, 2014 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Kelly Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Not sure if this is more incriminating of Truly or Officer Baker. Truly seems to be the "inside" man (inside the TSBD machinations) while Baker becomes the outside man... the first responder, and a quick one at that. Baker could've chosen many buildings to rush into, but he goes straight to the TSBD. Both of these individuals are central to incriminating Oswald, including first sightings and locations. If indeed the lunchroom encounter never happened, and the coke is a fantasy, then both are culpable. Truly seems more able to be "manipulated" (by the powers that be) while Baker is after all a policeman. But both are right in the thick of it. Now I'm curious to see how (if at all) the HSCA treated these individuals and the veracity of their statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Just a quick followup on the South-most 4th floor window of the TSBD in the photo David posted, which appears to show the blurry outline of a person. That window looks out from the Stock room in the SW corner of the 4th floor. Going back to witness testimony, we find that Mary Hollies and Betty Alice Foster viewed the motorcade together from that stock room. So the image in the window is very likely one of those two women. And David is correct. The partially open West facing window in the SW corner of the 6th floor is the window of highest interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Murr Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Couple of things Richard... The image is very hard to tell about the 4th floor windows... but it is possible and would indeed be a GREAT place to shoot from and stay hidden and ADD to the echoes... Supressed weapons of the day were not silenced by any means... yet that could account for the way in which the shots are described as sounding so different. I only recently learned about the Mooney quote... and yes, it is VERY strange.. Add to this the "MAN" Sawyer runs into getting off the elevator at about 12:34... and the planting of evidence is about the easiest thing in the world to accomplish. Do you give much credibility to the Alyea story of the original shell positions, and the crimescene dolt Fritz picking them up, only to be throw/placed down later for photos? That statement is very damaging to any Oswald did it theory, if true. DJ David, Missing photo and film provide additional food for thought regarding the West facing windows of the TSBD. Mary Ann Moorman took a Polaroid photo showing the TSBD in the background. That photowas confiscated and never returned. From her position, the West side of the building was visible. The Babushka Lady was shooting film not far from Moorman and would also have an unobstructed view of the West side of the TSBD. This film has never surfaced. So two pieces of photo evidence that share a similar view of the West side are both missing. In the case of Moorman's photo, the known chain of custody starts with Deputy Sheriff John Wiseman, goes to Chief Deputy Sheriff Allan Sweat, and terminates with SSA William Patterson. The evidence relating to the Sniper's Lair is a mess. Fritz, Hill, Johnson, Montgomery, Mooney, Studebaker, and Weatherford provide a jumble of testimony of cloudy observations and contradictions concerning the shells, the chicken bones, the boxes, and a large brown paper bag. I place more stock in Alyea's observations than any of the above. It is likely that most, if not all of the photographic evidence of the Sniper's Lair was taken after various items had been moved or repositioned. Richard et al: And as Mary Moorman's first Polaroid taken in Dealey Plaza clearly shows, the 5th floor, SW corner window was open before the motorcade even arrived on Elm Street - long before Williams, Jarman and Norman had occasion to run to that area and "open" this same window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I also wanted to see about the 3 wise men's 5th floor WEST windows... which are now open at 12:40.... along with the the 6th fllor WEST end windows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Couple of things Richard... The image is very hard to tell about the 4th floor windows... but it is possible and would indeed be a GREAT place to shoot from and stay hidden and ADD to the echoes... Supressed weapons of the day were not silenced by any means... yet that could account for the way in which the shots are described as sounding so different. I only recently learned about the Mooney quote... and yes, it is VERY strange.. Add to this the "MAN" Sawyer runs into getting off the elevator at about 12:34... and the planting of evidence is about the easiest thing in the world to accomplish. Do you give much credibility to the Alyea story of the original shell positions, and the crimescene dolt Fritz picking them up, only to be throw/placed down later for photos? That statement is very damaging to any Oswald did it theory, if true. DJ David, Missing photo and film provide additional food for thought regarding the West facing windows of the TSBD. Mary Ann Moorman took a Polaroid photo showing the TSBD in the background. That photowas confiscated and never returned. From her position, the West side of the building was visible. The Babushka Lady was shooting film not far from Moorman and would also have an unobstructed view of the West side of the TSBD. This film has never surfaced. So two pieces of photo evidence that share a similar view of the West side are both missing. In the case of Moorman's photo, the known chain of custody starts with Deputy Sheriff John Wiseman, goes to Chief Deputy Sheriff Allan Sweat, and terminates with SSA William Patterson. The evidence relating to the Sniper's Lair is a mess. Fritz, Hill, Johnson, Montgomery, Mooney, Studebaker, and Weatherford provide a jumble of testimony of cloudy observations and contradictions concerning the shells, the chicken bones, the boxes, and a large brown paper bag. I place more stock in Alyea's observations than any of the above. It is likely that most, if not all of the photographic evidence of the Sniper's Lair was taken after various items had been moved or repositioned. Richard et al: And as Mary Moorman's first Polaroid taken in Dealey Plaza clearly shows, the 5th floor, SW corner window was open before the motorcade even arrived on Elm Street - long before Williams, Jarman and Norman had occasion to run to that area and "open" this same window. Gary, Thank you for posting the photo of McBride with the TSBD in the background. Below is a link to a larger version of the same photo at Robin Unger's site. Note that in this photo, there are black artifacts or smudges that conceal all the upper floors on the West facing side of the TSBD above the treeline. The tree line is plainly visible in the photo David posted above (taken at 12:40) and in the McIntire photo shown earlier in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Murr Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Thanks Richard; regarding the "lost" Moorman photograph, I believe we are talking about this same image. The attached report from the Dallas FO, constructed by SA Curtis L. Perryman and dated November 23, 1963, indicates that they were shown the photograph in question by SS SA Bill Patterson and were actually given the photograph by the SS. The handwritten note affixed in the bottom right hand corner of this memo is hard to decipher but in part it states that the photograph "was extremely poor in quality" and was rejected as important by both the SS and the FBI because it did not show the 7th floor [?] or the pertinent "6th floor window from which shots fired." Rush to judgement by eyes so blind? FWIW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Murr Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Sorry - here is the memorandum stated previously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 We ought to rememebr that M3 was taken in the street, closer to the TSBD, and therefore the trees would indeed appear much taller than from other angles. Some things of concern: - How, with a polaroid, is the motorcycle and background in focus as the motorcycles is moving and would be blurred if she was not panning, or the background should be very blurry... - Why is the quality so much worse than the other Moorman photos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 Thanks Richard; regarding the "lost" Moorman photograph, I believe we are talking about this same image. The attached report from the Dallas FO, constructed by SA Curtis L. Perryman and dated November 23, 1963, indicates that they were shown the photograph in question by SS SA Bill Patterson and were actually given the photograph by the SS. The handwritten note affixed in the bottom right hand corner of this memo is hard to decipher but in part it states that the photograph "was extremely poor in quality" and was rejected as important by both the SS and the FBI because it did not show the 7th floor [?] or the pertinent "6th floor window from which shots fired." Rush to judgement by eyes so blind? FWIW. Correct about the "lost" Moorman photo, Gary. The memo you kindly posted echoes what I have heard from other sources -- "poor image quality ... shows nothing of interest". I believe the image is still archived somewhere and may eventually turn up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 We ought to rememebr that M3 was taken in the street, closer to the TSBD, and therefore the trees would indeed appear much taller than from other angles. Some things of concern: - How, with a polaroid, is the motorcycle and background in focus as the motorcycles is moving and would be blurred if she was not panning, or the background should be very blurry... - Why is the quality so much worse than the other Moorman photos? David, that's what I thought when I first saw the photo. After looking more closely, I decided that was not the case. The McIntire photo shows those same trees from a distance and they are roughly the same height, with the very highest branches reaching up to about the middle of the 4th floor window (at roughly 10' per floor that equates to a height of about 35'). Moorman is about 200-205' feet from the SW corner of the TSBD when she snaps her shot. If you do some line of sight geometry, those trees are not tall enough to block out the 5th and 6th floors, even when you account for her lower elevation. You bring up a fair point about the blurry photos. As you know, Moorman took 5 photos that day in Dealey Plaza. The two that showed the west side of TSBD in the background were apparently the poorest in quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 7, 2014 Share Posted January 7, 2014 I tried to find photos of those trees specifically and finally have... from the next day or two... The polaroid lens was maybe 114mm (most seemed to be) with a 1/1200 sec shutter speed - so that's why everything is in "focus" yet the 'Land Camera 80' as her camera is described as, was really a model 800 it appears. and why it appears we are closer to the building than she was.... The tree limbs match while the image on the right was probably taken with a standard 35mm... - yet, where is the light pole in Moorman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Hocking Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 I tried to find photos of those trees specifically and finally have... from the next day or two... The polaroid lens was maybe 114mm (most seemed to be) with a 1/1200 sec shutter speed - so that's why everything is in "focus" yet the 'Land Camera 80' as her camera is described as, was really a model 800 it appears. and why it appears we are closer to the building than she was.... The tree limbs match while the image on the right was probably taken with a standard 35mm... - yet, where is the light pole in Moorman? Good find, David. The photo on the right looks like it may have been taken a few feet West of Moorman's position. Gives an excellent illustration of the tree line against the TSBD. I am curious who took it and what day they snapped the photo. Regarding the Light pole, if you look at the uncropped Moorman photo, there is something that resembles the light pole near the right side of the photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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