Paul Trejo Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) Yes indeed... Bill has been extremely helpful in so many ways related to Mexico City and the Evidence... the mole-hunt was more concerned with FBI, Mexican and/or Cuban infultration of the CIA "LI" programs than anything related to JFK... But ask yourself why a CIA asset goes to the local authorities to tell his Sept 18, no Sept 27/28th story - is polygraphed with Phillips in the room, is discredited and is sent away. All after the assassination. THAT is a key to how the evidence was used to implicate Oswald as a Commie and Castro related. Intriguing, David. Please tell us which "CIA asset" you're referring to. Because, if you're referring to Gilberto "Alvarado" Ugarte, he FAILED that polygraph test. Also, you're right that the CIA Mole-Hunt wasn't originally about JFK, because in early October the CIA high-command had no clue that JFK was going to be murdered in Dallas in the next seven weeks. So, what's your point, again? Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited May 7, 2015 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) bump Edited May 8, 2015 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Yes indeed... Bill has been extremely helpful in so many ways related to Mexico City and the Evidence... the mole-hunt was more concerned with FBI, Mexican and/or Cuban infultration of the CIA "LI" programs than anything related to JFK... But ask yourself why a CIA asset goes to the local authorities to tell his Sept 18, no Sept 27/28th story - is polygraphed with Phillips in the room, is discredited and is sent away. All after the assassination. THAT is a key to how the evidence was used to implicate Oswald as a Commie and Castro related. Intriguing, David. Please tell us which "CIA asset" you're referring to. Because, if you're referring to Gilberto "Alvarado" Ugarte, he FAILED that polygraph test. Also, you're right that the CIA Mole-Hunt wasn't originally about JFK, because in early October the CIA high-command had no clue that JFK was going to be murdered in Dallas in the next seven weeks. So, what's your point, again? Regards, --Paul Trejo My point was the response to each and every point you listed which needed addressing, which you conveniently did not include in your reply.... maybe head back over and take a look - my replies are in bold right after each of your points. an excerpt: 3.2. Yet Hoover from the very first day of the JFK murder strongly insisted upon a "Lone Shooter" aka. "Lone Nut" interpretation of Lee Harvey OSWALD. We've had this duscussion. Hoover, even after the FBI report is delivered tells his staff that he did not want to say it was Oswald alone precisely because of Mexico City. In Jan 1964 Hoover writes that we need to be careful with the CIA due to their deception regarding Oswald in Mexico. 3.3. Therefore, the data about Mexico City could not be brought forward in the Warren Commission volumes. The data in the WCR related to Mexico is a complete FBI fabricaction from start to finish... and I prove it. 3.4. The evidence that OSWALD rode as a passenger of an automobile to Mexico City had to be smashed, and replaced with a Bus Ride Myth. Why Paul? And what was the bus ride myth all about? It is the STATE Dept consul Harvey CASH who first lies to I&NS about the mode of transportation. The CIA & STATE had one agenda while the FBI and I&NS had another... the FBI knew Oswald was not in Mexico from reports all thru Nov 1963. When they were asked to uncover how he came and went to Mexico, Hoover had to make a decision to either support the WC effort to find Oswald guilty, or expose the CIA... and/or expose what really was going on in Mexico City during that time. 4.3. Therefore, the Impersonators were: (i) unknown to CIA high-command; and (ii) CIA personnel. Speculation at best 4.4. Therefore, the Impersonators were CIA Rogues. Speculation at its worst And again Paul, you have no clue what CIA high command knew or didn't - so why do you make such generic statments as if you know something but don't want to share the sources for such a theory which you state as fact? Is there anything that you can offer to support this conclusion? ------------------------- & Yes Paul... Alvarado was a CIA asset who comes in after the assassination to tell an amazing story. CE3152 is Helm's explanation of Alvarado to the WC and comes from WCD1545 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=11940#relPageId=3&tab=page ... another link to the story is WCD76 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10478#relPageId=5&tab=page The "failed" lie detector test is a misnomer. No such thing as "failing" a polygraph. The operator, also CIA, with Philips in the room made sure that he was shown to be lying even though Alvarado himself recanted his confession of fakery. He was sent away and it was requested that he be given something "useful and non-sensitive" to do. The entire story was an incriminating Castro-backed story which the CIA squashed once Cuba was no longer on the table. The CIA and State Dept were working together to both establish an Oswald had traveled and that he had not traveled alone but in a car to and from Mexico... yet this info was not passed along to FBI or I&NS... the FBI was lied to about the lack of a mode of transportation... the FBI's reports from Nov are all negative for Oswald having been in Mexico... yet Hoover and the FBI go ahead and create tht travel documents... The FBI asset that mattered was a lawyer named Ochoa who handled every piece of the fraudulent Mexico City travel and hotel evidence... he even added his own notes to the FM-11 to "help the investigation..." Paul... I think you will find many of the answers and sources you are looking for in my Mexico work... but you can only lead a horse to water, right? Take care. DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) ...An excerpt: 3.2. ...Hoover, even after the FBI report is delivered tells his staff that he did not want to say it was Oswald alone precisely because of Mexico City. In Jan 1964 Hoover writes that we need to be careful with the CIA due to their deception regarding Oswald in Mexico. 3.3. The data in the WCR related to Mexico is a complete FBI fabricaction from start to finish...and I prove it. 3.4. ...What was the bus ride myth all about? It is the STATE Dept consul Harvey CASH who first lies to I&NS about the mode of transportation. The CIA & STATE had one agenda while the FBI and I&NS had another... the FBI knew Oswald was not in Mexico from reports all thru Nov 1963. When they were asked to uncover how he came and went to Mexico, Hoover had to make a decision to either support the WC effort to find Oswald guilty, or expose the CIA... and/or expose what really was going on in Mexico City during that time. And again Paul, you have no clue what CIA high command knew or didn't - so why do you make such generic statments as if you know something but don't want to share the sources for such a theory which you state as fact? Is there anything that you can offer to support this conclusion? ------------------------- & Yes Paul... Alvarado was a CIA asset who comes in after the assassination to tell an amazing story. CE3152 is Helm's explanation of Alvarado to the WC and comes from WCD1545... The "failed" lie detector test is a misnomer. No such thing as "failing" a polygraph. The operator, also CIA, with Philips in the room made sure that he was shown to be lying even though Alvarado himself recanted his confession of fakery. He was sent away and it was requested that he be given something "useful and non-sensitive" to do. The entire story was an incriminating Castro-backed story which the CIA squashed once Cuba was no longer on the table. The CIA and State Dept were working together to both establish an Oswald had traveled and that he had not traveled alone but in a car to and from Mexico... yet this info was not passed along to FBI or I&NS... the FBI was lied to about the lack of a mode of transportation... the FBI's reports from Nov are all negative for Oswald having been in Mexico... yet Hoover and the FBI go ahead and create tht travel documents... The FBI asset that mattered was a lawyer named Ochoa who handled every piece of the fraudulent Mexico City travel and hotel evidence... he even added his own notes to the FM-11 to "help the investigation..." Paul... I think you will find many of the answers and sources you are looking for in my Mexico work... Take care. DJ Well, David, I've already read your material on Mexico City, and I disagree with much of it. We're looking at the same data about Mexico City, and we interpret it differently. I say your interpretation jumps to conclusions. For example, just going by your text above: (1) Actually, Hoover told his staff in the first weeks of the Warren Commission that he hesitated to say that Oswald acted alone, only because he didn't want to show his hand -- that the "Lone Shooter" hypothesis was his Alpha and Omega. Hoover was simply lying to his staff -- for their own good. (1.1) His staff had already heard rumors from the FBI in Mexico City which was stationed by the CIA there. The rumor mill in Mexico City was generating Communist Conspiracy theories like a factory. (1.2) Hoover had to play this card with care. So, he faked out his staff, pretending that he wasn't married to the "Lone Shooter" scenario -- when actually he had already given high-level FBI orders to suppress all "Accomplices" evidence at 3PM CST on 11/22/1963. (2) Your work *does* demonstrate that the FBI fabricated *some* of the data of the Mexico City episode, David, but not *all* of it. (2.1) In my theory, it's easy to tell when the FBI is "fabricating," i.e. whenever actual "Accomplices" data contradicted their "Lone Nut" theory, the FBI would step in. (2.2) For example, the Bus Ride is a fabrication -- simply because the real evidence that OSWALD entered Mexico City by automobile proved that OSWALD had "Accomplices." (2.3) Albert Osborne was an obsessive xxxx. The two Australian ladies contradicted themselves, as their phony "Oswald" never told them his name. Also, the McFarlands had nothing more to offer than an FBI identification of OSWALD repeated back to the FBI. (3) OSWALD certainly was in Mexico City. The multi-page resume of OSWALD, including photographs, produced by the Lopez Report, is ample proof, and it was witnessed by Duran, Azcue and Mirabar. (3.1) Why were all the CIA photos of OSWALD suppressed down to this very day? That was part of the Simpich Mole Hunt. That's why. (3.2) Why did the CIA give OSWALD the middle name of "Henry?" That was part of the Simpich Mole Hunt. That's why. (3.3) Why was that large Russian's photograph in OSWALD's 201 CIA file? That was part of the Simpich Mole Hunt. That's why. (4) So, I repeat, David. I surmise that the CIA high-command had no idea who Impersonated OSWALD in Mexico City, because that is the best explanation for the CIA starting the Simpich Mole Hunt. (4.1) My support is simply this -- since the CIA started a Mole Hunt, it's obvious that the CIA high-command didn't know who the Impersonators were. That's tautological. (5) As for Alvarado, he was one small part of the vast 'Communist Conspiracy Panic' that seized Mexico City after the JFK murder. His fictions coincide with those of Elena Garro de Paz and several others (including low-level CIA staff) -- all claiming that a Communist Conspiracy was made between Fidel Castro, Silvia Duran and Lee Harvey OSWALD. These were all mistakes based on political fears. (5.1) Neither the CIA high-command nor the FBI believed them. It was all part of the general panic of the times. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited May 7, 2015 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 (1) Actually, Hoover told his staff in the first weeks of the Warren Commission that he hesitated to say that Oswald acted alone, only because he didn't want to show his hand -- that the "Lone Shooter" hypothesis was his Alpha and Omega. Hoover was simply lying to his staff -- for their own good. Rather than try and eat the entire elephant in one bite... how about you explain how it is you know this as a fact.... I can appreciate this being offered as a theory yet Hoover is told by the CIA and State Dept that the evidence of his travel to Mexico reveals no mode of transportation when we can see the records for ourselves and see that they did say he traveled by Auto. The FBI was forced into creating and cherry-picking evidence which kept him a Lone Nut traveling alone - Bundy's declaration comes well beofre Hoover is involved in the decision. So please... if you are so sure that Hoover's letter to his senior staff is a lie... can you prove it with some logic and evidence... ? 5) As for Alvarado, he was one small part of the vast 'Communist Conspiracy Panic' that seized Mexico City after the JFK murder. His fictions coincide with those of Elena Garro de Paz and several others (including low-level CIA staff) -- all claiming that a Communist Conspiracy was made between Fidel Castro, Silvia Duran and Lee Harvey OSWALD. These were all mistakes based on political fears. Alvarado was clearly a CIA asset in Mexico for one and only one reason, to implicate Oswald as a Castro backed communist bent on killing JFK... He was Nicauraguan intelligence... Once Ozzie the commie becomes Ozzie the Lone Nut, Alvarado's story has to be discredited... Helms even steps in to explain away Alvarado... This was not some "Panic" ... this was orchestrated to show that the accused murderer was linked to Castro, so let's go get Castro. All that was called off... and then the CIA asks that he be given something else to do... here's a man that supposedly lies to implicate someone already accused in the murder of JFK and the CIA just wants to hide him away yet still give him something to do - yet Duran, who does not lie about the incident is taken in and interrogated by Mexican Police until she agrees even more incriminating statements against this man she says did not return after Friday the 27th. The CIA's offers a memo that states they will NOT use Tap info from the "LI" programs but the evidence from Duran and the Russians... You claim he was in Mexico City... again, offer your evidence that he was there... I've offered 250 pages showing he was not. That you disagree does not make the information any less revealing or the evidence any more authentic... Were you aware of Ochoa and his role? Arturo Bosch and the Frontera passenger list along with the other "presidential staff members" who arrived soon after the assassination to "borrow" the evidence related to all the possible means for this Oswald to have arrived in Mexico City...? Anahuac and the FBI saying he arrived in Mexico City on that line - while all that line's records in Mexico City and Monterrey were moved to another location further north? Paul... I appreciate you took the time to read thru the work... what you haven't proven and only offer is your speculation that the man called OSWALD in the car per the CIA was actually Lee or Harvey Oswald. The CIA even lies about who was potentially in the car with him... in one report it's the Brill's when their name was "Allen", in another it's two women and a man... Another major conflict: Let me ask you... the FM-8 application Oswald signed was actually for an FM-5, a 180 day stay - not a 15 day stay... why is the application for one visa while the actual visa is for somehting else? You supposed that OCHOA being the source for Oswald's FM-8 has anything to do with it? Or how about that this incorrect VISA has no reference to a car or bus yet the FM-11 provided by OCHOA has him leaving by Auto. The cards typed up by Tijerina for Cash.. "Vieja en Auto" from the FM-11 while the source document does not reflect this. (3.3) Why was that large Russian's photograph in OSWALD's 201 CIA file? That was part of the Simpich Mole Hunt. That's why. And finally Paul... the reason why Mystery Man is in Oswald's file has to do with a story related to FBI SA Odum supposedly showing these photos to Marguerite who says afterward that the FBI showed her photos of RUBY IN MEXICO... The photo is listed as ODUM EXH #1 in the WCR... http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0356a.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 (edited) Rather than try and eat the entire elephant in one bite... how about you explain how it is you know this as a fact.... I can appreciate this being offered as a theory yet Hoover is told by the CIA and State Dept that the evidence of his travel to Mexico reveals no mode of transportation when we can see the records for ourselves and see that they did say he traveled by Auto. The FBI was forced into creating and cherry-picking evidence which kept him a Lone Nut traveling alone - Bundy's declaration comes well beofre Hoover is involved in the decision. So please... if you are so sure that Hoover's letter to his senior staff is a lie... can you prove it with some logic and evidence... ? Alvarado was clearly a CIA asset in Mexico for one and only one reason, to implicate Oswald as a Castro backed communist bent on killing JFK... He was Nicauraguan intelligence... Once Ozzie the commie becomes Ozzie the Lone Nut, Alvarado's story has to be discredited... Helms even steps in to explain away Alvarado... This was not some "Panic" ... this was orchestrated to show that the accused murderer was linked to Castro, so let's go get Castro. All that was called off... and then the CIA asks that he be given something else to do... here's a man that supposedly lies to implicate someone already accused in the murder of JFK and the CIA just wants to hide him away yet still give him something to do - yet Duran, who does not lie about the incident is taken in and interrogated by Mexican Police until she agrees even more incriminating statements against this man she says did not return after Friday the 27th. The CIA's offers a memo that states they will NOT use Tap info from the "LI" programs but the evidence from Duran and the Russians... You claim he was in Mexico City... again, offer your evidence that he was there... I've offered 250 pages showing he was not. That you disagree does not make the information any less revealing or the evidence any more authentic... Were you aware of Ochoa and his role? Arturo Bosch and the Frontera passenger list along with the other "presidential staff members" who arrived soon after the assassination to "borrow" the evidence related to all the possible means for this Oswald to have arrived in Mexico City...? Anahuac and the FBI saying he arrived in Mexico City on that line - while all that line's records in Mexico City and Monterrey were moved to another location further north? Paul... I appreciate you took the time to read thru the work... what you haven't proven and only offer is your speculation that the man called OSWALD in the car per the CIA was actually Lee or Harvey Oswald. The CIA even lies about who was potentially in the car with him... in one report it's the Brill's when their name was "Allen", in another it's two women and a man... Another major conflict: Let me ask you... the FM-8 application Oswald signed was actually for an FM-5, a 180 day stay - not a 15 day stay... why is the application for one visa while the actual visa is for somehting else? You supposed that OCHOA being the source for Oswald's FM-8 has anything to do with it? Or how about that this incorrect VISA has no reference to a car or bus yet the FM-11 provided by OCHOA has him leaving by Auto. The cards typed up by Tijerina for Cash.. "Vieja en Auto" from the FM-11 while the source document does not reflect this. And finally Paul... the reason why Mystery Man is in Oswald's file has to do with a story related to FBI SA Odum supposedly showing these photos to Marguerite who says afterward that the FBI showed her photos of RUBY IN MEXICO... The photo is listed as ODUM EXH #1 in the WCR... OK, David, all good questions, and all courteously presented. I'll respond by numbers: (1) My source for the 3PM 11/22/1963 announcement by J. Edgar Hoover that Lee Harvey OSWALD was the Lone Shooter ("Lone Nut") who killed JFK is History Professor David R. Wrone from Wisconsin University. He reveals this in the 2003 video, "The Murder of JFK: A Revisionist History." (1.1) Hoover immediately told his senior staff, who evidently contacted McGeorge Bundy to relay to LBJ (then aboard AF1). LBJ liked the idea and later praised Hoover for it. Those quotes are well known. (1.2) Hoover knew from the very start that OSWALD was not the "Lone Shooter". Hoover also knew that this was a politically based killing, and he probably guessed that Ex-General Edwin WALKER, whom JFK humiliated in 1962, and who had sworn vengeance, was the ringleader. (1.3) Rather than go to war against the Minutemen, and risk Civil Unrest for an indefinite period, Hoover proposed to LBJ to blame OSWALD alone and deal with the real problem under the public radar. LBJ liked the idea. (In making OSWALD a Lone Nut, Hoover deliberately and strategically removed from WALKER his main premise -- namely, that OSWALD was a Communist and that the Communists killed JFK.) (2) The Simpich Mole Hunt explains all the problems of the Mexico City episode that John Armstrong struggled so valiently (and so unsuccessfully) to explain before the era of Bill Simpich. (2.1) In other words, since OSWALD was the centerpiece of the Mole Hunt in Mexico City, OSWALD's CIA 201 File had been "doctored" by the CIA high-command in order to catch the Mole. This "doctoring" included substituting the Mystery Man photo for OSWALD's photo, and substituting "Henry" as OSWALD's middle name, and other elements. (2.2.) The JFK murder took the CIA high-command by surprise -- and when they were told that the prime suspect was Lee Harvey OSWALD, this scrambled their Mole Hunt. All data concerning OSWALD had been confiscated to Ultra-Top Secret files, and were unavailable to anybody except the CIA high-command. (2.3) CIA lower-level staff just pulled the OSWALD 201 file and sent it to other Government Agencies -- totally ignorant of the fact that it had been "doctored" for the Mole Hunt. This is how the Mystery Man photo was sent to the FBI guy who showed it to OSWALD's mom. (2.4) CIA high-command got involved early on, and their SOP was simply to deny everything. That is why all the lies about OSWALD's mode of transportation proliferated so early. (2.5) You're right to recognize that the FBI was obliged (by Hoover) to forge and squeeze evidence to portray OSWALD as a "Lone Nut." Yet all records we have of OSWALD in Mexico City show that he arrived there as a passenger in car driven by somebody else. These "Accomplices" had to be stomped on by the FBI, by order of Hoover (and LBJ). (2.6) So Bundy's declaration came *after* Hoover's decision -- but Hoover's decision was Top Secret at first (and for a long time). Only LBJ knew about it at first, and soon Earl Warren and Allen Dulles would be informed. Bundy knew before LBJ because he was the messenger. (2.7) So, David, my source is Professor Wrone. With his revelation, everything else fits. (3) We agree that Alvarado was a low-level CIA asset in Mexico who worked to implicate OSWALD as a Communist. Yet it is hasty to say he acted on CIA orders in this. (3.1) If Alvarado's story was a CIA plot, then you must explain why the CIA turned on Alvarado and rejected his story. (3.2) Alvarado may have been (and probably was) working with lower-level CIA rogues, like David Morales -- but not with the CIA high-command. (3.3.) Yet it is equally possible that Alvarado was part of the general "panic" in Mexico City, which wanted to blame Communists for everything -- including the common cold. (3.4) One must remember the politics of the day -- the Communist Party was *illegal* in Mexico. It was far easier to bash Communists in Mexico than in the USA. It was far more popular in the press to do so. (3.5) People who accused Silvia Duran of a sex affair with OSWALD, and a plot between both of them and Fidel Castro to murder JFK were making *money* on their stories. The Mexican reading public was in such a Communist-plot panic that they bought all these stories for weeks. (3.6) Your error, David, IMHO, is that you think the CIA told Alvarado to start lying, and then told him to stop lying. That's just a guess. It's more accurate to say that the CIA was divided inside itself, as proved by the Simpich Mole Hunt (2014). (3.7) The Mexico City panic was increased by desperate efforts to blame Silvia Duran for the JFK murder, which involved her torture in a Mexican prison to make her confess. (3.8) Also, Silvia Duran's own cousin, Elena Garro de Paz, who was a famous fiction writer, stepped up with her own fiction of a "Twist Party" in Mexico City in which Silvia was the host to Lee Harvey OSWALD and his two companions. (In this party, OSWALD is tall, skinny, with long blond hair). This fiction was widely sold in Mexico City for several weeks. (3.9) Yet all of the best efforts of the Mexican Police to suck up to the CIA were always in vain, because the CIA high-command had signed up to support Hoover's doctrine of a "Lone Nut." These fictions of OSWALD in Mexico with "two friends" contradicted the "Lone Nut" doctrine. So, the CIA high-command in Mexico City ordered all their junior staff to shut up about a Communist Plot, or be fired. (3.10) But you know that, David. (4) Your 250 pages of evidence that OSWALD was never in Mexico City, David, are in harmony with John Armstrong's book, "Harvey and Lee" (1999), but Armstrong lacked the benefit of the research done by Bill Simpich. (4.1) Since Bill Simpich corrects John Armstrong, I submit that Bill Simpich also corrects your information. (4.2) In addition, my evidence isn't only the Mexican Immigration records of OSWALD entering and leaving Mexico as a passenger in a car -- my evidence is stronger than that. (4.3) The Lopez-Hardway Report (1993) makes it clear that Lee Harvey OSWALD came to Mexico City's Cuban Consulate with a large resume of "credentials" that he had recently completed in New Orleans. (4.4) These credentials tried to prove that (i) OSWALD was a member of the Communist Party USA; (ii) OSWALD was a Director in the FPCC; (iii) OSWALD was a well-connected radical activist. (4.5) In addition to this resume, which included news clippings from New Orleans about OSWALD, as well as newspaper photographs, OSWALD also produced four passport photographs of himself, so that Silvia Duran could staple these to his Visa application. (4.6) Silvia Duran saw Oswald's face, and she saw these photographs. Her supervisors, Azcue and Mirabar, also saw them. (4.7) Even though Duran, Azcue and Mirabar all described OSWALD as a "blonde," we must remember that this word has a different meaning in Mexico, where most people have darker skin, with dark hair and brown eyes. (4.8) So, David, I think my evidence is solid. The fact that John Armstrong didn't see it that way is well-explained by the Simpich Mole Hunt data, IMHO. (5) I realize that Arturo Bosch worked to fake evidence that OSWALD was on a *bus* to Mexico City. (5.1) This was done at the request of Hoover and the FBI (and supported by the CIA high-command). Hoover knew that if the Truth came out that OSWALD arrived and left Mexico as a passenger in a car, that this would cancel his "Lone Nut" theory. (5.2) Therefore, Hoover insisted that data be forged to make it appear that OSWALD arrived on a bus. (5.3) The five English speaking witnesses on that bus all presented testimony that falls apart upon ordinary scrutiny. Yet they were pressed forward by FBI agents seeking promotions from J. Edgar Hoover. (6) I am aware of Ochoa and his role. Regarding the FBI (and their flunkies) tampering with evidence to make it appear that OSWALD was a "Lone Nut," any changes to any FM-5 or FM-8 or FM-11 data would be expected. Yet we won't be able to sort out all this paperwork until the target stops moving (on 26 October 2017). (7) Finally, David, the Mystery Man story came out because some low-level CIA clerk pulled OSWALD's "doctored" 201 File and sent it to the FBI, and then some dumb FBI agent (Odum) showed it to OSWALD's mom, instead of to OSWALD's wife -- because he was clueless. (7.1) Once that was done, however, the cat was out of the bag, because OSWALD's mom was a big mouth. Then the CIA could not put the Mystery Man back into the closet again. (7.2) However, David, the Simpich Mole Hunt fully explains the problem. (7.3) The reason that this large Russian dude had his photo inside Lee Harvey OSWALD's CIA 201 file, was entirely due to the Simpich Mole Hunt. It's that simple. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited May 10, 2015 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 (edited) Bumped for Bill Simpich. ...Trejo is right - my tentative conclusion is that it was a rogue operation led by Morales and Harvey, or people like them within JMWAVE and/or SAS. Besides the molehunt hypothesis, I don't see strong evidence pointing to people like Angleton and Helms asnce the architects of 11/22. I see Angleton, like Phillips, very busy on the cover-up side of the assassination. With his colleague Egerter all over the paperwork of Oswald on a steady basis between 1960-63 and again in the Mexico City phase, I just can't understand why a wily man like Angleton would leave a trail like that. Oswald had to be a humiliation for his office. I don't agree with Trejo that blackmail is a weak argument. I was not arguing the CIA botched the investigation "to save a few jobs of a few CIA people". I am saying that the political future of the CIA was jeopardized by the events of 11/22. If the American people had known how Angleton had been tracking Oswald since 1960, how Mexico City had been highly concerned about Oswald in the last few weeks before 11/22, how Phillips had gone to DC and Miami in the days after Oswald was impersonated, how Johnson and Hoover had discussed the Oswald impersonation on 11/23...there would have been domestic upheaval... Well, Bill, IMHO your Mole-Hunt discovery is a paradigm shift in JFK research. Ever since Jim Garrison and Mark Lane concluded that the CIA "must be" behind the JFK murder mystery, most JFK Researchers have been going down that rabbit hole. Your discovery, as I read it, completely exonerates the CIA high-command of setting-up Lee Harvey OSWALD for the murder of JFK. This is because the CIA high-command started a Mole-Hunt looking for OSWALD's Mexico City Impersonator, therefore, of course they weren't the Impersonators. It's crystal clear that the Impersonators knew what they were doing at all levels -- they knew their phone call was being tapped at highest priority, because it connected the Cuban Consulate with the USSR Embassy. They knew that the names they used in the call were being underlined. They knew that the name of KGB agent Valeriy Kostikov would send up a red flag, because the CIA held that Kostikov was from Department 13, the assassinations Department of the KGB. They knew that OSWALD would become a person of intense interest within the CIA at that point. This proves, IMHO, that the Impersonators were CIA officers -- because they knew so much about the Mexico City operation. However, it also proves that they were not of the CIA high-command, otherwise there would have been no Mole-Hunt. I see no blackmail -- but I do see something like it -- I see a direct defiance of authority by these lower level CIA officers, flying in the face of the CIA high-command. However, in my reading, the Impersonators goofed. They failed to realize that the CIA high-command would start a Mole-Hunt the moment it was recognized that the voices on that call weren't *really* the voices of Sylvia Duran and Lee Harvey OSWALD. If the Impersonators had been successful, they would have convinced the CIA high-command that Lee Harvey OSWALD was cooperating with the USSR (and Cuba) in a deadly plot. As we saw from the Lopez Report, immediately after the JFK murder, some folks in the CIA (not the CIA high-command) actually became worried that Kostikov really was behind the JFK murder. But this worry was quickly shut-down by the CIA high-command (who had secretly figured out that the phone call about Kostikov had been an Impersonation). The Mole-Hunt turned up nothing, well past the Garrison trials. It seems to me that the Impersonation of OSWALD in Mexico City accomplished NOTHING AT ALL, except to scramble and marginalize the identity of Lee Harvey OSWALD further -- just as J. Edgar Hoover had later desired. So, even though it played into the hands of the "Lone Nut" scenario -- that was not its original purpose. The original purpose of the OSWALD Impersonation in Mexico City, IMHO, was to successfully link OSWALD and Kostikov in the minds of the CIA high-command, in order to justify an invasion of Cuba. That original effort failed. I've used Occam's Razor to arrive at my hypothesis, Bill. Please tell me why you disagree with this, if you still disagree. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited May 8, 2015 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Your 250 pages of evidence that OSWALD was never in Mexico City, David, are in harmony with John Anderson's book, "Harvey and Lee" (1999), but Anderson lacked the benefit of the research done by Bill Simpich. First off his name is John Armstrong... and of course it starts in harmony since John did as much if not more work than most on that trip believing that it was Lee who made the trip. I believe I've convinced him that was not the case - that Lee was elsewhere and that no Oswald took this trip. btw - Ochoa's name does not appear in JA's book. As the FBI's top asset in Mexico and the man responsible for virtually all the fraudulent evidence he wouldn't be looked at much if one was focused on what occurred at these embassies as opposed to authenticating the travel and stay evidence. Bill's work has to do with why Oswald was impersonated on the 9/28 and 10/1 calls and why Mystery Man was even added to the mix. That MM's photos were from the 2nd 4th and 15th and had nothing at all to do with the Oct 1st call evidence offered by the CIA. I respect Bill's work immensely yet it has nothing to do with what the FBI, CIA, State and I&NS did to "uncover" or "hide" the travel details. I also think his work confirms that it definitley was not Oswald in MExico. Your "Hoover said it first" idea backed by the video is fine... Do you have which of the 18 episodes on youtube this is said? Do you have a transcript of this announcement? Who did he announce it to, when and where? We need more detail than just Wrone says so... I tried to find evidence of this announcement online with no luck so far... any corroboration for this occurring would be appreciated DJ My source for the 3PM 11/22/1963 announcement by J. Edgar Hoover that Lee Harvey OSWALD was the Lone Shooter ("Lone Nut") who killed JFK is History Professor David R. Wrone from Wisconsin University. He reveals this in the 2003 video, "The Murder of JFK: A Revisionist History." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 I believe that Bill Simpich was 'agnostic' on whether LHO was in MC. I also believe that he would credit Peter Dale Scott for the original research that led to the mole hunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) First off his name is John Armstrong... Your "Hoover said it first" idea backed by the video is fine... Do you have which of the 18 episodes on youtube this is said? Do you have a transcript of this announcement? Who did he announce it to, when and where? We need more detail than just Wrone says so... I tried to find evidence of this announcement online with no luck so far... any corroboration for this occurring would be appreciated DJ Yes, John Armstrong, not Anderson. That was my speed-typing typo, David -- I actually got his name right a couple times before. Anyway, I'm glad you liked my source -- Professor Wrone -- for the pre-3PM 11/22/1963 announcement by J. Edgar Hoover that Lee Harvey OSWALD was the "Lone Nut" killer of JFK. As I said, it's in the 2003 video, "The Murder of JFK: A Revisionist History." And you're right -- it's on YouTube today. Specifically, it's in volume 11, exactly 50 seconds from the start. I also told Larry Hancock earlier this year that Wrone was my source -- and Larry also said he wanted more confirmation. Well, I know I'm not the only one who can pick up a telephone and call Dr. Wrone and ask him for his sources (which tend to be impressive). Besides, I have a day job and I keep my nose pretty close to the grindstone. So, I'm content to stick with Dr. Wrone's verdict until I hear proof otherwise -- but after a year of proclaiming Wrone on this Forum, nobody has yet proved Wrone wrong. Still, I'd be gratified if one of you JFK Researchers would please contact Professor Wrone and ask him. (PS. Also on YouTube, in volume 10 of that same series, near the end, around 7:33, Dr. Wrone also gives us some history of the time -- that the people he knew immediately thought the John Birch Society was behind the JFK murder.) Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited May 9, 2015 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) Paul, first off, given that you cite Wrone in regard to one of the most fundamental elements in your theory, you really do need to do that work yourself....apparently Wrone himself does not cite a source or you would have given it to us so at this point you are really just relaying an opinion or statement from him. Several of us have given you data which would seriously challenge the point that it was Hoover who personally initiated and orchestrated the "lone nut" scenario but clearly that is not what you want to see.....if Wrone really has some primary source (not just his opinion) its not up to us "prove Wrone wrong" because so far we have seen nothing that proves him right or for that matter gives us any insight to why he would make that claim...or if so I have missed it. -- just my opinion of course, Larry Edited May 9, 2015 by Larry Hancock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 First off his name is John Armstrong... Your "Hoover said it first" idea backed by the video is fine... Do you have which of the 18 episodes on youtube this is said? Do you have a transcript of this announcement? Who did he announce it to, when and where? We need more detail than just Wrone says so... I tried to find evidence of this announcement online with no luck so far... any corroboration for this occurring would be appreciated DJ Yes, John Armstrong, not Anderson. That was my speed-typing typo, David -- I actually got his name right a couple times before. Anyway, I'm glad you liked my source -- Professor Wrone -- for the pre-3PM 11/22/1963 announcement by J. Edgar Hoover that Lee Harvey OSWALD was the "Lone Nut" killer of JFK. As I said, it's in the 2003 video, "The Murder of JFK: A Revisionist History." And you're right -- it's on YouTube today. Specifically, it's in volume 11, exactly 50 seconds from the start. I also told Larry Hancock earlier this year that Wrone was my source -- and Larry also said he wanted more confirmation. Well, I know I'm not the only one who can pick up a telephone and call Dr. Wrone and ask him for his sources (which tend to be impressive). Besides, I have a day job and I keep my nose pretty close to the grindstone. So, I'm content to stick with Dr. Wrone's verdict until I hear proof otherwise -- but after a year of proclaiming Wrone on this Forum, nobody has yet proved Wrone wrong. Still, I'd be gratified if one of you JFK Researchers would please contact Professor Wrone and ask him. (PS. Also on YouTube, in volume 10 of that same series, near the end, around 7:33, Dr. Wrone also gives us some history of the time -- that the people he knew immediately thought the John Birch Society was behind the JFK murder.) Regards, --Paul Trejo Ok Paul... thanks... I just checked it out and there is no 3pm announcement mentioned... only what they THINK he MIGHT have said or done. There is nothing to offer a connection between Hoover and Bundy inferring that Bundy would take what Hoover said to the Sit room and inform AF-1. If anything I can see that happeneing in reverse with Bundy telling Hoover/LBJ the direction the government was going to go. If anything Hoover would have been delighted to uncover a communist plot... his entire existence was denying the Mafia and fighting communism, activism and the freedom to question the government. He was kept from doing this... You forget maybe that all month of Nov he was looking for a connection between Oswald and Mexico using his own sources - all negative - including one from the Dept of Gobernacion (very likely Ochoa telling him there was no record of Oswald on Nov 8th and then turning around to help Hoover after the fact to create the evidence) Your assumption that he would lie to his Sr. Staff when there was evidence offered that something happened in Mexico, that Ozzie was FPCC, that Florida and Cubans were involved... Hoover was shut down from doing an investigation... and he was bitter about it. The CIA/Military would trump the FBI every time. And the State Dept was in on it with the CIA. I have no doubts that once the ball was rolling Hoover helped solidify the Lone Nut myth and legend... simply put Paul, I think you jump to too many conclusions based on the thinnest of evidence... when there are mountains of real evidence from which to speculate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mark Valenti Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4210331/david-wrone-fairy-tale-dallas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4210331/david-wrone-fairy-tale-dallas Well, Mark, I want to thank you for posting this link to an online video of history professor David R. Wrone (Wisconsin U.) taken on 12 September 2012 addressing the Mid-America Conference on History, This video was produced by C-SPAN on behalf of the Missouri University of Science and Technology, History and Political Science Department. The title of Wrone's lecture was: The Fairy Tale of Dallas, in which he argued before other historians that the evidence from the JFK crime scene proved a conspiracy by unknown seditionists. It's significant that Professor Wrone opened his lecture with this crucial claim, that J. Edgar Hoover -- within one hour of Lee Harvey Oswald's arrest -- personally came up with the "Lone Shooter" doctrine, and promptly broadcast this doctrine to his senior staff. Now, David Josephs today claimed that he "checked this out," and that it was only imagination. Yet DJ also fails to tell us exactly how he "checked this out." Was that only his imagination? Larry Hancock threw my plea for help back onto me -- I'm the one who's advocating Wrone, so it's up to me to contact Professor Wrone on my own, and report back to the JFK Research Community. For this reason I appreciate your efforts, Mark -- because you pulled in my direction -- at least on this single point. So, OK. I'll add this project to my long To-do list: I'll seek out Professor Wrone. Wish me luck. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited May 10, 2015 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted May 9, 2015 Share Posted May 9, 2015 Good luck Paul. Some day you might have to concede that Hoover was the very opposite of a hero. He didn't save the country from anything. He did his level best to keep the truth from coming out to his everlasting shame. Btw am I correct that Simpich takes no position on whether Oswald was in MC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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