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Bill Simpich's State Secret


William Kelly

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So the 1:43 memo isn't it.

How about it, Mr. Trejo? Since the document underpins your entire theory, can you produce a copy of "the" one that states that Hoover has gone into "lone assassin" mode?

After all, the burden of proof SHOULD be on the person making the claim.

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So, history professor David R. Wrone gave us a list of five FBI memos upon which he bases his claim that J. Edgar Hoover is the originator of the "Lone Shooter" theory of Lee Harvey Oswald -- and you folks read the first one, and close down the research?

What sort of researchers are you, anyway?

No, since Dr. Wrone, who is 82 and actually ill these days, did his work and named all these FBI documents, and even gave us the serial numbers for each FBI document -- the LEAST I would expect from you younger folks is to step up and do your part.

POST THE ACTUAL FBI DOCUMENTS !! You know you have them. Wrone made this easy for you.

You can't all be that lazy.

As a reminder, here's what Dr. Wrone shared:

All on 11/22/1963 -- Hoover to staff officials (Eastern Standard Time):

* 1:43pm 62 109060-55;

* 2:21pm 62 109060-56;

* 4:01pm 62 109060-59;

* 5:15pm 62 109060-57.

Also: Morrell to Wick, 02/20/1967

* 62 109060-4496 which discusses when Hoover told Nixon at 4pm (EST) on 11/22 that a commie had killed JFK.

GET ON THE STICK PEOPLE! DON'T LET THE ELDERLY DO ALL THE WORK!!

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Paul, Scott provided you with an early answer in post #137.

The document you reference from Professor Wrone as the 1:43 memo - document 62-109060-55 - is from 11:33 am that morning and has nothing to do with the assassination

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/62-109060/62-109060%20Section%2001/62-109060-55.pdf

Actually you can do your own research on Hoover’s memos of the afternoon at the following link which compiles them; they are largely in time sequence so its possible

to follow them pretty easily. You can check each of the documents Wrone mentioned.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/62-109060/62-109060%20Section%2001/

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Paul - there is nothing in these Hoover memos to support your assertion that The great patriot Hoover saved the US from Civil War by coming up with the lone gunman theory. Time to man up and eat some humble pie.

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Mr. Trejo,

YOU are the one who stated that your "answer" was in one of Professor Wrone's FBI documents. WE are not. So the burden of proof falls upon YOUR shoulders. And NO, I most certainy DO NOT have those documents in my "files." In fact, had Larry Hancock NOT so graciously posted the links he did, I had no idea where to go to find them. [A GOOGLE search using the document numbers was a total failure.]

So here's a suggestion: YOU go to the link, YOU read the documents cited, and YOU post the one you believe supports your assertions. Because I can't seem to find one that says anything even REMOTELY close to what you contend is in the documents.

...and you call US "lazy researchers"....sheesh....

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Paul, Scott provided you with an early answer in post #137.

The document you reference from Professor Wrone as the 1:43 memo - document 62-109060-55 - is from 11:33 am that morning and has nothing to do with the assassination

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/62-109060/62-109060%20Section%2001/62-109060-55.pdf

Actually you can do your own research on Hoover’s memos of the afternoon at the following link which compiles them; they are largely in time sequence so its possible to follow them pretty easily. You can check each of the documents Wrone mentioned.

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/62-109060/62-109060%20Section%2001/

Thank you, Larry, for your clear and non-sarcastic reply.

I will examine all of these FBI documents myself -- with an open mind -- and I expect to find more than I've seen here.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

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OK, thanks to Larry Hancock, I now have all the FBI documents that Professor Wrone identified for us.

The first thing I'll say is that the one labeled "109060-55" in the Mary Ferrell web site is from 11:38 am on 11/22/1963, when JFK was still alive. So, that's likely a typo.

Instead, here are the dates and numbers that match the Mary Ferrell listing:

FBI memos from Hoover on 11/22/1963:

* 2:21pm 62 109060-56

* 5:15pm 62 109060-57

* 1:43pm 62 109060-58

* 4:01pm 62 109060-59

I would note that Oswald was arrested at 2:50pm EST on 11/22/1963, which was 1:50 CST in Dallas.

Chronologically:

The earliest memo in Wrone's list is stamped 1:43pm EST, e.g. 12:43pm CST, or 13 minutes after JFK was murdered. Naturally, the memo is confused, and there is a Negro suspect, and reports that a Secret Service agent was also killed.

The next memo in Wrone's list is stamped 2:21pm EST, e.g. 1:21 CST. This means that Oswald was not yet arrested. Again we read of the Negro suspect, and inquiries about the supposedly dead Secret Service agent.

The next memo in Wrone's list is stamped 4:01pm EST, e.g. 3:01 CST. This means that Oswald had been in custody for 1 hour and 11 minutes when this memo was typed. This memo is more interesting.

The next memo in Wrone's list is stamped 5:15 EST, e.g. 4:15 CST. This is the memo that David Josephs kindly shared with us, which we have already perused briefly.

I take it from Professor Wrone's listing that he wishes us to take all four memoranda together, as one unit, to tell the history of that afternoon.

To make things clearer, I will type in the full text from Hoover's memo of 4:01 EST. Notice that it identifies Lee Harvey Oswald as the prime suspect in the JFK murder, while keeping an open mind.

================ BEGIN HOOVER MEMO OF 4:01 EST 11/22/1963 =======================

November 22, 1963

4:01 PM

MEMORANDUM FOR

MR.TOLSON
MR. BELMONT
MR. MOHR
MR. CONRAD
MR. DE LOACH
MR. EVANS
MR. ROSEN
MR. SULLIVAN

I called the Attorney General at his home and told him I thought we had the man who killed the President down in Dallas at the present time. I stated the man's name is Lee Harvey Oswald; that he was working in the building from which the shots were fired that hit the President and the Governor; that apparently he left the building and a block or two away ran into two police officers and, thinking they were going to arrest him, shot at them and killed one of them with a side arm; that the rifle had been left in the building.

I told the Attorney General at his home that we have a case on Oswald as he has been involved in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. I stated that the Dallas police have him down at headquarters and I have our Agents there.

The Attorney General asked if Oswald is a communist. I said that he is not a communist but has communist leanings. I related that Oswald went to Russia and stayed three years; came back to the United States in June, 1962, and went to Cuba on several occasions but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for. I stated he a very mean-minded individual; that it is entirely possible he may have some communist sympathies but, so far as we know, is not a member of the Communist Party.

I told the Attorney General that, since the Secret Service is tied up, I thought we should move into the case.

I also informed the Attorney General that the plane has left with the President's body; that Lyndon Johnson has been sworn in and is coming on the same plane.

I advised him that I have told our men to go down to police headquarters and participate in this interrogation of Oswald.

I also advised him that we have received information that a woman notified police authorities at Long Beach that she was told a few days ago that the President would be killed in Dallas by some man friend of hers, when he arrived in Dallas today. I stated we are trying to find this woman and locate the man friend.

I advised him also that a telephone operator at the Woodner overheard a conversation with a man in Texas in which the Washington man inquired whether or not it had been carried out, and the man here said, "I will remain quiet then." I said we reported this to the Secret Service and they have sent agents out to the Woodner Apartments.

Very truly yours,
JEH
John Edgar Hoover
Director

================ END HOOVER MEMO OF 4:01 EST 11/22/1963 =======================

In a subsequent post I will review all four memos at the same time, and trace out the story that they tell about the workings of the mind of J. Edgar Hoover during the afternoon of the JFK murder.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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And what forensic psychologist credentials do you have, Mr. Trejo? What qualifies you to tell us how Hoover's mind worked on that afternoon?

Or is this simply another wild guess on your part, with no basis other than "because I said so"??

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Mark, your sarcasm is most unwelcome. I'm actually making forward progress here. Your "contribution" amounts to mere sarcasm.

What I actually wrote was that I would "review all four memos at the same time, and trace out the story that they tell about the workings of the mind of J. Edgar Hoover during the afternoon of the JFK murder."

That means that I'll review the four memos together, and trace out the story that they tell.

Now, as I read Professor Wrone, these four memos tell a story about Hoover's thinking process in the 2.5 hours after JFK was murdered. I will take him at his word. One must wait until the work is done.

Sarcasm doesn't help in the slightest.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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I'm not being sarcastic.

If you have forensic psychology credentials, please share them with us. Formal training almost always trumps pulling something out of thin air. And I never, ever denigrate the value of education.

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I'm not being sarcastic.

If you have forensic psychology credentials, please share them with us. Formal training almost always trumps pulling something out of thin air. And I never, ever denigrate the value of education.

Well, you are being sarcastic, Mark, because you know very well that I never claimed to have forensic psychology credentials.

Nor did I claim any credentials in psychology at all. And you know that. So, you're just being sarcastic.

I repeat -- what I said was that I would review all four FBI documents that Professor Wrone cited for us, and I'll trace out the story that the four FBI documents tell us.

Since these four FBI documents were written by J. Edgar Hoover himself, then naturally they will reveal something about Hoover's state of mind as he wrote them.

It doesn't take a degree in psychology to see that, obviously.

Now, if anybody here *does* have a degree in general psychology, or in forensic psychology -- they are more than welcome to add their observations to the ones I plan to share.

In short, Mark, your comments are not only sarcastic, but they are wasting time, and slowing me down. Was that your intent?

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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