Bill Simpich's State Secret

[Paul Trejo]

I have typed out the full text of all four FBI memos cited by Professor Wrone that were written by J. Edgar Hoover on 11/22/1963.

Here is the one from 1:43pm EST, namely, #62 109060-58. (This is less than 15 minutes after the JFK shooting.)

The first thing we may notice is that this is five memos in one -- it logs Hoover's conversations on 1:43, 1:48, 2:07, 2:10 and 2:17 p.m. EST. This is likely the reason that its FBI sequence number appears out of order.

============== BEGIN HOOVER MEMO OF 11/22/1963 1:43 EST =====================

November 22, 1963

1:43 p.m.

MEMORANDUM FOR

MR. TOLSON

MR. BELMONT

MR. MOHR

MR. CONRAD

MR. DE LOACH

MR. EVANS

MR. ROSEN

MR. SULLIVAN

I called the Attorney General at his home and advised him of the newsflash announcing that President and Governor Connally of Texas had been shot in Dallas, today, while touring Dallas in an open car, and that the first newsflash indicated the shot was believed to be fatal. The Attorney General had not previously been advised of this.

I asked the Attorney General if there was anything we could do at Dallas. He asked that we do whatever we could, and I told him we would get in touch with the Secret Service there.

1:48 p.m.

SAC Shanklin called from Dallas. Mr. Shanklin advised that the only information the Dallas Office had was from the radio. According to the radio in Dallas, the President and the Governor were shot at the corner of Elm and Commerce Streets in a motor parade going out to the place where they were to speak. One witness said a Negro man leaned out a window and made two shots, and the police have the whole building surrounded. The President and the Governor had been taken to Parkland Hospital and the President was bleeding from the head.

I instructed SAC Shanklin to get in touch with the Secret Service and offer assistance. Mr. Shanklin stated he had already done so. I also told Mr. Shanklin to establish liaison with the local police.

I inquired as to the Governor's condition and Mr. Shanklin indicated they had not reported on this. I inquired about the Vice President and Mr. Shanklin said the Vice President was in the parade but in a different car.

2:07 p.m.

SAC Shanklin called again and stated the President was in very poor condition but not dead. He said that had called in two priests.

Mr. Shanklin related that the shots came from the fourth floor. He stated the Dallas Office is maintaining liaison and has offered assistance. They do not know whether the shots were fired by a white person or a colored person. The first story was that a colored man leaned out of a window but they do not know; they are searching the whole building.

Mr. Shanklin advised that the Governor had been taken to an emergency operating room and the President was in the general emergency room. The last report was that the President was in very, very critical condition but was still alive.

Mr. Shanklin inquired if the Attorney General or anyone whom they should meet would be coming to Dallas. I advised Mr. Shanklin I would let him know if the Attorney General decided to travel to Dallas.

Mr. Shanklin advised that he had just received word the President was shot with a Winchester rifle.

2:10 p.m.

I called the Attorney General to advise him that the President was in very, very critical condition. The Attorney General then told me the President had died.

I advised the Attorney General that the Governor was in very serious condition; that Mrs. Kennedy was not hurt and neither was Mrs. Connally.

I told the Attorney General that the shot came from the fourth floor of a building and the building was completely surrounded now. I further advised him the President was shot by a Winchester rifle. I stated the Dallas Office is working in every way to help the Secret Service and the local police.

I inquired if the Attorney General intended to go to Dallas and he stated he did not know exactly what to do. I told him, if he decided to go down, to let me know and our office would meet him.

2:17 p.m.

SAC Shanklin called and advised that the doctor had just told our Agents that President Kennedy had just died. They said this was not being put out yet.

I instructed Mr. Shanklin to go all out on this and find out who did it.

Mr. Shanklin stated that they had located 3 or 4 shells in the building and the Sheriff's Office had picked up one man. I told Mr. Shanklin to give every assistance we can there and do everything we possibly can there at the building.

Mr. Shanklin stated that a Secret Service Agent had also been killed. He stated they did not mention that at first, but an Agent at the Police Department advised that one died. He did not know the name of this Secret Service agent.

Mr. Shanklin mentioned that he was supposed to come in Monday and he would cancel that. I advised him I thought he should cancel this.

I told Mr. Shanklin that the Attorney General did not know what he was going to do, that he may or may not go to Dallas, but I would let Mr. Shanklin know if the Attorney General decided to go to Dallas.

Very truly yours,

JEH

John Edgar Hoover

Director

================== END HOOVER MEMO OF 11/22/1963 1:43 - 2:17 EST ===================

My commentary will follow after I've posted all four FBI memos.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 18, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

I typed out the full text of all four FBI memos cited by Professor Wrone that were written by J. Edgar Hoover on 11/22/1963.

Here is the one from 2:21pm EST, namely, #62 109060-56.

=================== BEGIN HOOVER MEMO OF 11/22/1963 2:21 EST =====================

#5750

November 22, 1963

2:21 p.m.

MEMORANDUM FOR

MR. TOLSON
MR. BELMONT
MR. MOHR
MR. CONRAD
MR. DE LOACH
MR. EVANS
MR. ROSEN
MR. SULLIVAN

I called Mr. James J. Rowley, Chief of the Secret Service, to offer our assistance. I advised Mr. Rowley that our Dallas Office was already in contact with the Secret Service in Dallas and that we would render every possible assistance.

I mentioned that one of the Secret Service agents reportedly had been killed, and he stated he did not know this. I told him I had asked the name of the Secret Service Agent killed but it was not known.

I told Mr. Rowley that apparently the shooting came from the fourth floor of a building and shells had been found in the building; that these were Winchester shells -- apparently a Winchester rifle was used; and that the building was surrounded.

Mr. Rowley stated he was also thinking of subversive elements -- Mexico and Cuba. I then mentioned the Klan element. I advised Mr. Rowley that one witness stated he saw a Negro man lean out a window but later this was not confirmed and they do not know whether it was a white or a black.

I told Mr. Rowley the Bureau would render every assistance. Mr. Rowley indicated our assistance would be welcome and thanked me.

Very truly yours,
JEH
John Edgar Hoover
Director

=================== END HOOVER MEMO OF 11/22/1963 2:21 EST ===================

My commentary will follow after I've posted all four FBI memos.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 17, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

I typed out the full text of all four FBI memos cited by Professor Wrone that were written by J. Edgar Hoover on 11/22/1963.

The one from 4:01pm EST, namely, #62 109060-59, was already added to this thread yesterday, in my post, #146, but for the sake of consistency and simplicity, I will also include it here. (This memo was written one hour and 11 minutes after the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald.)

================ BEGIN HOOVER MEMO OF 4:01 EST 11/22/1963 =======================

November 22, 1963

4:01 PM

MEMORANDUM FOR

MR.TOLSON
MR. BELMONT
MR. MOHR
MR. CONRAD
MR. DE LOACH
MR. EVANS
MR. ROSEN
MR. SULLIVAN

I called the Attorney General at his home and told him I thought we had the man who killed the President down in Dallas at the present time. I stated the man's name is Lee Harvey Oswald; that he was working in the building from which the shots were fired that hit the President and the Governor; that apparently he left the building and a block or two away ran into two police officers and, thinking they were going to arrest him, shot at them and killed one of them with a side arm; that the rifle had been left in the building.

I told the Attorney General at his home that we have a case on Oswald as he has been involved in the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. I stated that the Dallas police have him down at headquarters and I have our Agents there.

The Attorney General asked if Oswald is a communist. I said that he is not a communist but has communist leanings. I related that Oswald went to Russia and stayed three years; came back to the United States in June, 1962, and went to Cuba on several occasions but would not tell us what he went to Cuba for. I stated he is a very mean-minded individual; that it is entirely possible he may have some communist sympathies but, so far as we know, is not a member of the Communist Party.

I told the Attorney General that, since the Secret Service is tied up, I thought we should move into the case.

I also informed the Attorney General that the plane has left with the President's body; that Lyndon Johnson has been sworn in and is coming on the same plane.

I advised him that I have told our men to go down to police headquarters and participate in this interrogation of Oswald.

I also advised him that we have received information that a woman notified police authorities at Long Beach that she was told a few days ago that the President would be killed in Dallas by some man friend of hers, when he arrived in Dallas today. I stated we are trying to find this woman and locate the man friend.

I advised him also that a telephone operator at the Woodner overheard a conversation with a man in Texas in which the Washington man inquired whether or not it had been carried out, and the man here said, "I will remain quiet then." I said we reported this to the Secret Service and they have sent agents out to the Woodner Apartments.

Very truly yours,
JEH
John Edgar Hoover
Director

================ END HOOVER MEMO OF 4:01 EST 11/22/1963 =======================

My commentary will follow after I've posted all four FBI memos.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 18, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

I typed out the full text of all four FBI memos cited by Professor Wrone that were written by J. Edgar Hoover on 11/22/1963.

The one from 5:15pm EST, namely, #62 109060-57, was partially uploaded last week, but here is the full version:

=================== BEGIN HOOVER MEMO OF 11/22/1963 5:15 EST ===================

November 22, 1963

5:15 p.m.

MEMORANDUM FOR
MR. TOLSON
MR. BELMONT
MR. MOHR
MR. CONRAD
MR. EVANS
MR. ROSEN
MR. SULLIVAN

Assistant Attorney General Norbert A. Schlei, Office of Legal Counsel, called. He stated he was drafting various forms of a proclamation for use by the new President and wondered if I could tell him whether I had any knowledge as to what kind of people murdered the President. He indicated the form of the proclamation might depend on whether these were madmen, disappointed office seekers, represented some political point of view, were segregationist madmen, or just who they were.

I told Mr. Schlei I thought very probably we had in custody the man who killed the President in Dallas but this had not definitely been established. I advised Mr. Schlei that Lee Harvey Oswald spent some years in Russia, although he was born in America; that he tried unsuccessfully to renounce his American citizenship; and then came back home. I stated our interest in Oswald came about from the fact that he had been associated with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee; that he was arrested in New Orleans some months ago for handing out leaflets in support of that committee.

I told Mr. Schlei that Oswald was working in the building from which the shots were fired; that we have the rifle and 3 empty shells found in the building in which the man was employed. I said Oswald apparently left the building and a block or two away two police officers moved toward him, and for no good reason -- he opened fire and then killed one.

I told Mr. Schlei that the police have Oswald in custody and we are interrogating him at the present time. I stated he would be in the category of a Nut and the extremist pro-Castro crowd.

As to other Presidents assassinated, I indicated I had knowledge concerning only two of them. I stated the attempted assassination of President Truman was by Puerto Ricans in the Nationalist Party, which was the same group who opened fire in the House of Representatives from the gallery.

Concerning the assassination of President McKinley, I advised Mr. Schlei that Czolgosz, who killed President McKinley, was a student of Emma Goldman and that I later prosecuted her for deportation from the United States. I said we did not catch up with Emma Goldman until 1919, when we rounded up a group of anarchists and sent them back to Russia. I related that Czolgosz attended meetings at Goldman's home in Chicago, where she had a meeting place for people with anarchist views. I stated that Goldman was a well educated woman -- self educated -- coming from the sweatshops of New York garment district; that she wrote on many subjects and wrote well.

I advised Mr. Schlei that almost all assassins had some imaginary grievance, usually of a political type -- of either the anarchist or the communist viewpoint. I stated the communists did not come into the picture until 1917.

I said Oswald, if he were the man, would be in the category of being an extreme radical of the left; that he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, that several of the leaders of this group have been indicted; but that this man never was a leader. I stated he was born an American but tried unsuccessfully to lose his American citizenship; came back to this country in 1962; made several trips to Cuba; upon his return each time we questioned him about what he went to Cuba for, and he answered that it was none of our business. I said his working in this particular building where he was employed would lend credence to the fact that he may very likely be the man.

I advised Mr. Schlei that we have been getting leads from all over the country. I stated in California there is a story which has some substance which we are running down that a man made a statement to some woman at Long Beach that the President would be assassinated in Dallas today.

I also advised Mr. Schlei that Western Union has brought to our attention telegrams containing veiled threats to the President in the past several days.

I told him in criminal cases there are always four or five people who turn up who claim to be guilty. I stated I would think Oswald would be the one. I stated our Agents view him as a nut, as he freezes up and withdraws into himself when he is being questioned as he did this afternoon down in Dallas.

I said that much depends upon the evidence to be obtained; that the rifle has been handled by dozens of people probably -- the building was filled with people watching the parade; by the time they got to the fifth floor, the rifle had been dropped and thrown over into a corner; there was indication he was eating fried chicken sandwiches this afternoon; we have to check this out and find where he obtained the chicken.

I stated Oswald is the principal suspect in the case; we are trying to persuade him to submit to a polygraph examination; and as soon as the body arrives in Washington, we will determine whether the bullets have been taken out because we will need that in the trial of the case to tie in with the empty shells found by the gun.

I informed Mr. Schlei that at the hospital in Dallas they were not certain the bullets had been taken out; that the body is going to be removed in to the Bethesda Naval Hospital and, if the bullets are still in the body, they will be removed.

Mr. Schlei stated I had been very helpful and he appreciated it very much. I told him, if we can be of any further help, to call on me.

=================== END HOOVER MEMO OF 11/22/1963 5:15 EST ===================

My commentary will follow in a few hours -- giving y'all a chance to read these materials in this simple format -- or catch any typos, etc.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 17, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, I'm sure your commentary will be interesting but I'm assuming you know these documents have been available to, studied by and referenced by numerous researchers for several decades now. Not to take anything away from Professor Wrone but I'm relatively certain they are online at Hood college as part of the Weisberg collection. I recall numerous articles concerning them over the years. I'm also a bit concerned about oversimplifying them too much since there is a good deal of associated information in the documents themselves including routing, distribution, the fashion in which information is consolidated in various summary memos; I really think those interested should be looking directly at the documents themselves via the links available.

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, I'm sure your commentary will be interesting but I'm assuming you know these documents have been available to, studied by and referenced by numerous researchers for several decades now. Not to take anything away from Professor Wrone but I'm relatively certain they are online at Hood college as part of the Weisberg collection. I recall numerous articles concerning them over the years. I'm also a bit concerned about oversimplifying them too much since there is a good deal of associated information in the documents themselves including routing, distribution, the fashion in which information is consolidated in various summary memos; I really think those interested should be looking directly at the documents themselves via the links available.

Thanks, Larry, for your friendly advice.

Although these documents have been available to JFK Researchers for decades, as you say, I'm interested in the fact that scholars continue to disagree with each other about their meaning -- decades later.

I would take care not to over-simplify my commentary on them -- and I'm sure that, as you say, there is a lot of background information that goes with them.

Nevertheless, have you seen any research that isolates these several FBI documents by Hoover himself, composed within the first 4 hours after the JFK murder, to ascertain their significance as a unit?

The links that you provided from the Mary Ferrell site are quite valuable, since they are available to everybody, so everybody can tell if my transcription above contains any errors.

I don't want to mistake even one of Hoover's words. I believe these FBI documents are that important.

Professor Wrone was kind enough to share his thinking with us. I think it's worthwhile for somebody to return the favor, and show that we have thoroughly read and thoroughly considered the historical import of these four specific instances of Hoover's own memoranda about the JFK murder in general, and about Lee Harvey Oswald in particular.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 18, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, generally speaking those documents have been viewed/written about as a group from two perspectives (that's off the top of my head of course). The first has to do with information flow and what Hoover was reporting, focusing on the fact that he was passing on a lot of bad information, initially what he was getting was not from investigators but essentially media information like everyone else. Even his own field office was passing that to him at first since it had not direct info, then they began to pass on DPD info. Where that begins to change is when they begin to get information from their own files on Oswald, from Mexico City and from their investigations and leads coming into them. One of the outstanding questions from relatively early on has to do with what FBI files Hoover was looking at on Oswald and in particular what produced the remark about three trips to Cuba. The second has been more in the nature of a chronological study, who he was talking to when, and what that implied about when information began to be suppressed during the first 48 hours. As you know, I do a lot of that in SWHT. One of the big mysteries there is what contact Johnson and Hoover may have had after Johnson was back in DC including the vanishing Johnson call to Hoover that evening and the tape/transcript manipulation of the record of their conversation on Saturday morning. Along with that there is a major hole in what Hoover actually did at close of business on Nov. 22; as far as the existing record goes he apparently just went home, had dinner and listened to the TV for news on the assassination. I would suggest that in concert with your study of the documents, you take a good reread of Manchester and see what he says about Hoover and his agents for that day.

Lots of time and brain sweat has been spent on all the memos of that period of time, Hoover's as well as those of the Dallas field officers and his senior officers in DC. I'm not sure anyone has used them to try and recreate Hoover's actual thinking - other than to comment he was pretty cold in his contacts with RFK. Perhaps someone else can comment on that.

[Paul Trejo]

OK, it's going to take several more hours for me to complete my first analysis. The best I can do tonight is a high level summary.

(1) FBI memo #62 109060-58 is five memos in one. It is a log of five Hoover conversations between 1:43pm EST (less than 15 minutes after the JFK shooting) and 2:17pm EST.

(NOTE: Gary Mack sent me a better copy of this memo, showing that the hours end with 2:17, and not with 3:17 as I originally thought.)

1:43pm EST

* Hoover calls RFK with the news that JFK was shot in Dallas, possibly fatal. RFK heard this for the first time.

* Hoover asked RFK if there was anything the FBI could do. RFK replied, 'do whatever you can.' Hoover said the FBI would contact the SS.

1:45pm EST (15 minutes after the JFK shooting):

* FBI Special Agent in Charge (SAC) Gordon Shanklin called Hoover from Dallas with mistaken info, viz. the shooting occurred at Elm and Commerce; a witness saw a Negro suspect; police surrounded "the building."

* Hoover told Shanklin to stay in touch with the SS and DPD.

* Hoover asked Shanklin about Connally and LBJ. Shanklin had no data on Connally, but knew LBJ was in a different car.

2:07pm EST

* Shanklin called to say JFK was in bad shape but not dead. Still, two priests were summoned.

* Shanklin said the shots came from the 4th floor, and that the Dallas FBI is helping all they can. They still don't know if the shooter was white or black, but they are searching "the building."

* Shanklin said Connally and JFK were in emergency rooms; both still alive, though JFK was in critical condition.

* Shanklin asked if RFK would come to Dallas and need an FBI escort. Hoover said he would find out.

* Shanklin confirmed that JFK was shot with a Winchester rifle.

2:10pm EST (This was 20 minutes after Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested at 1:50pm CST.)

* Hoover called RFK to say JFK was in critical condition. RFK then told Hoover that he heard a solid report that JFK was dead.

* Hoover told RFK that Connally was in serious condition, but Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally were unhurt.

* Hoover told RFK that the shot came from the 4th floor of "a building" which was now completely surrounded. The FBI believes the shooter used a Winchester rifle, and was working hard with the SS and DPD.

* Hoover asked RFK if he planned to go to Dallas. RFK said he didn't know. Hoover offered an FBI escort him in Dallas if he chose to go.

2:17pm EST

* Shanklin called Hoover to say that the FBI just learned from doctors that JFK was dead, but the Media was not being told.

* Hoover told Shanklin to "go all out" and "find out who did it."

* Shanklin told Hoover that the DPD found 3 or 4 shells in "the building" and the Sheriff's Office arrested one man.

* Hoover told Shanklin to help in every way in "the building."

* Shanklin said that an SS agent was also killed, according to a DPD agent. He did not know the name.

* Shanklin said he would cancel his trip to DC on Monday. Hoover agreed that Shanklin should cancel that trip.

* Hoover told Shanklin that RFK didn't know if he would travel to Dallas or not, but when Hoover found out, he would tell Shanklin.

(2) FBI memo #62 109060-56 is from 2:21pm EST. It is a call to the Secret Service Chief.

* Hoover then called SS Chief James Rowley, to offer help. Rowley thanked him.

* Hoover added that he'd heard a rumor that an SS agent was killed. Rowley said he heard no such report. Hoover said he asked for the agent's name, but received no name.

* Hoover told Rowley that the shooter shot from the 4th floor of "a building" and shells were found from a Winchester rifle, and that "the building" was surrounded.

* Rowley said he suspected subversives from Mexico and Cuba. Hoover reminded Rowley of the KKK threat against JFK in the USA.

* Hoover told Rowley that a witness claimed to see Negro male at a window; but this was unconfirmed; the shooter could be white or black.

(3) FBI memo #62 109060-59 is from 4:01pm EST. (One hour, 11 minutes after the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald.)

* Hoover called RFK at home to say he thinks the FBI has the killer of JFK: Lee Harvey Oswald, a worker in "the building" where the shots came from.

* Hoover had reports that Oswald left "the building" and two blocks away encountered two DPD officers and to avoid arrest shot and killed one with a pistol. His rifle was still in "the building.".

* Hoover told RFK that the FBI has a file on Oswald because he was involved with the FPCC. Oswald was in custody at the DPD, with FBI agents also there, helping them (including interrogation of Oswald).

* RFK asked Hoover if Oswald was a Communist. Hoover said no, but Oswald went to Russia, stayed three years; returned to the USA in June, 1962, went to Cuba several times, was interviewed by the FBI for that, but refused to cooperate.

* Hoover told RFK that Oswald was "mean-minded" with possible Communist sympathies, but not a CP member.

* Hoover suggested to RFK that since the SS was "tied up" that the FBI should take over the case.

* Hoover told RFK that AF-1 left Dallas with JFK's body; that LBJ was sworn in, and riding AF-1 back to DC.

* Hoover told RFK that the FBI is checking out a report from Long Beach that a woman's boyfriend said he was going to Dallas to kill JFK.

* Hoover told RFK that the SS is checking out an FBI report from "Woodner Apartments" in DC that the telephone operator overheard a Texas man ask the DC man if "it was carried out." The Texas man then said, "I will remain quiet then."

(4) FBI memo #62 109060-57 is from 5:15pm EST. (2 hours and 25 minutes after the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald.)

* Assistant Attorney General Norbert A. Schlei called Hoover for help writing a "proclamation" for LBJ.

* Schlei asked Hoover what kind of people murdered JFK. His "proclamation" would depend on the kind of assassins they were; whether madmen, disappointed office seekers, political extremists or "segregationist madmen."

* Hoover told Schlei that the FBI was almost certain that the killer of JFK was Lee Harvey Oswald, an American who spent years in Russia, tried and failed to renounce his US citizenship; and returned home. He was in DPD custody and was currently being interrogated.

* Hoover told Schlei that the FBI had a file on Oswald because he was involved with the FPCC, and arrested in New Orleans only months ago for FPCC leafleting.

* Hoover told Schlei that Oswald was a worker in "the building" from which the shots were fired. The rifle was found there, along with 3 empty shells; and Oswald left the building and two blocks away met two DPD officers and killed one "for no good reason."

* Hoover told Schlei that Oswald was a "Nut" and a pro-Castro extremist.

* Hoover then discussed other Presidential assassinations he had seen as FBI Director, including the attempted assassination of Harry Truman, and the actual assassination of President McKinley, by Leon Czolgosz,a student of anarchist writer Emma Goldman whom Hoover later prosecuted and deported.

* Hoover told Schlei that almost all assassins had some imaginary political grievance, either anarchist or communist.

* Hover told Schlei that Oswald (if he were the man) was an extremist of the left, as a member of the FPCC, and several FPCC leaders had been indicted, but Oswald was "never was a leader" of the FPCC.

* Hoover told Schlei that Oswald was born an American, tried and failed to renounces his US citizenship; came back home in 1962; made several trips to Cuba; and when the FBI asked him why, he was uncooperative.

* Hoover told Schlei that Oswald being an employee of "the building" was strong evidence that he was the JFK shooter.

* Hoover told Schlei that the FBI was getting leads from all over the USA, including the Long Beach story.

* Hoover told Schlei that Western Union showed the FBI several telegrams threatening JFK in the past several days.

* Hoover told Schlei that very often four or five people openly claim to be guilty in criminal cases. However, Hoover thought that Oswald "would be the one."

* Hoover told Schlei that FBI Agents in Dallas saw Oswald as a "Nut", because Oswald "withdraws into himself when he is being questioned."

* Hoover told Schlei a bit about FBI reports of evidence -- that the rifle was handled by dozens of people (so no fingerprints) and the rifle was found in a corner; that Oswald was apparently eating chicken for lunch, and his chicken vendor was of interest to the FBI.

* Hoover told Schlei that "Oswald is the principal suspect in the case;" that FBI planned to give Oswald a lie detector test; and that the FBI also planned to obtain the bullets from JFK's body, to tie the empty shells to the bullets in a court trial.

* Hoover told Schlei that the Dallas doctors did not remove the bullets (probably) but Bethesda Naval Hospital doctors would.

* Schlei thanked Hoover.

=========================================================

So, that's my summary of all four FBI documents by Hoover that were identified by Professor David R. Wrone.

Before I post my analysis, I'm putting my Summary forward so that Forum members can indicate their opinion about whether my Summary is accurate or not.

If enough members accept it, then my analysis will proceed directly from my Summary.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 18, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, generally speaking those documents have been viewed/written about as a group from two perspectives (that's off the top of my head of course). The first has to do with information flow and what Hoover was reporting, focusing on the fact that he was passing on a lot of bad information, initially what he was getting was not from investigators but essentially media information like everyone else. Even his own field office was passing that to him at first since it had not direct info, then they began to pass on DPD info. Where that begins to change is when they begin to get information from their own files on Oswald, from Mexico City and from their investigations and leads coming into them. One of the outstanding questions from relatively early on has to do with what FBI files Hoover was looking at on Oswald and in particular what produced the remark about three trips to Cuba. The second has been more in the nature of a chronological study, who he was talking to when, and what that implied about when information began to be suppressed during the first 48 hours. As you know, I do a lot of that in SWHT. One of the big mysteries there is what contact Johnson and Hoover may have had after Johnson was back in DC including the vanishing Johnson call to Hoover that evening and the tape/transcript manipulation of the record of their conversation on Saturday morning. Along with that there is a major hole in what Hoover actually did at close of business on Nov. 22; as far as the existing record goes he apparently just went home, had dinner and listened to the TV for news on the assassination. I would suggest that in concert with your study of the documents, you take a good reread of Manchester and see what he says about Hoover and his agents for that day.

Lots of time and brain sweat has been spent on all the memos of that period of time, Hoover's as well as those of the Dallas field officers and his senior officers in DC. I'm not sure anyone has used them to try and recreate Hoover's actual thinking - other than to comment he was pretty cold in his contacts with RFK. Perhaps someone else can comment on that.

Thanks, Larry, for this friendly advice as well.

I will certainly review William Manchester's book, The Death of a President (1967) regarding Hoover's behavior concerning the JFK murder, before I complete my first analysis.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, just a bit more friendly advice. With all due respect to law enforcement its my experience in looking a many high profile murders that as soon as they have a basic set of evidence pointing to a name, that individual becomes a prime suspect and that is where they focus their attention. Once they have the person in custody its all about them because they move to an evidence collection mode to support prosecution. After all at that point its either the local police working for a DA or the Bureau working for a Justice Dept prosecutor. You can see an almost instant turn around once they get the first hard evidence, especially if its linking what appears to be a murder weapon to their suspect. Like it or not at that point open ended investigations start to fade away.... Based on that its no real surprise that once DPD had a suspect in custody and some evidence, Hoover would start talking about Oswald as the shooter - it reassures people, it makes those involved feel vindicated in at least catching the murderer and its good for closure. The real point of interest is when Hoover closed down the FBI investigation and focused it on Oswald alone....that was not Friday afternoon or night. In fact he didn't totally focus it on Oswald until after his conversation with Johnson on Saturday morning - and he was still offering his opinion that the case against Oswald was weak as of Sunday morning.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Larry Hancock

[Pamela Brown]

Paul, just a bit more friendly advice. With all due respect to law enforcement its my experience in looking a many high profile murders that as soon as they have a basic set of evidence pointing to a name, that individual becomes a prime suspect and that is where they focus their attention. Once they have the person in custody its all about them because they move to an evidence collection mode to support prosecution. After all at that point its either the local police working for a DA or the Bureau working for a Justice Dept prosecutor. You can see an almost instant turn around once they get the first hard evidence, especially if its linking what appears to be a murder weapon to their suspect. Like it or not at that point open ended investigations start to fade away.... Based on that its no real surprise that once DPD had a suspect in custody and some evidence, Hoover would start talking about Oswald as the shooter - it reassures people, it makes those involved feel vindicated in at least catching the murderer and its good for closure. The real point of interest is when Hoover closed down the FBI investigation and focused it on Oswald alone....that was not Friday afternoon or night. In fact he didn't totally focus it on Oswald until after his conversation with Johnson on Saturday morning - and he was still offering his opinion that the case against Oswald was weak as of Sunday morning.

Excellent analysis, Larry, and imo very true when it came to Lee Oswald. He never had a chance to be considered 'innocent until proven guilty'.

Ironically, in my own life, in 1981, I became involved in the case of a young woman named Lori Anderson who went missing in the Twin Cities. After I spoke with her parents and gathered as much information as possible, I went to talk to the St. Louis Park, MN police, as that is where her family's home was, from which she disappeared, and they were in charge of her case. They did allow me to go through all the information in their files. I told them I suspected the people who had asked me to get involved -- though they claimed to be her 'friends' that didn't pan out to my thinking, and I had came to wonder if they really wanted me to get information for them so they would have an advantage in the situation and keep one step ahead of the Police.

Although the Police interviewed these two people they had already set their sights on this girl's ex-boyfriend, and didn't even ask these guys the right questions. Subsequently, one of them committed suicide. Searches have gone on since then, including digging up around the basement of this ex-boyfriend's house. Nothing has been found.

I also gave my information to the BCA, but as my theory conflicts with their preconceptions, they have not followed up on any information regarding it. Here is a link to the BCA flier on her case -- https://dps.mn.gov/divisions/bca/bca-divisions/administrative/documents/andersenlauren.pdf.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Pamela Brown

[Larry Hancock]

That's very interesting Pamela and I'm afraid that it matches what I have seen in more high profile crimes. Of course certainly there is immense public pressure for quick solutions on those, the FBI traditionally had a bad rep with local law enforcement for pushing to quick and rather obvious solutions...Hoover started the practice of promoting the Bureau with quick action and arrests and I'm afraid the crime labs people were often pressured to support those. Last week there was another news story of wide spread evidence issues with the Bureau, this time being investigated by Congress. Again, no knock on either local or state law enforcement but they do exist within a public relations and political context just as everything else does and generally they have far less time and resources then they would like. .

I've previously proposed that it would be very useful to contact academics who study criminology and ask if there have ever been any studies of how many murder conspiracies, especially those involving frames, have actually been solved by standard police investigations without some sort of third party intervention. I doubt there are that many. But all this is important in studying the JFK assassination since it seems to me that we often treat the investigation as totally unique while I'm afraid it was not. I find it fascinating that a famous LA prosecutor who investigated the Manson murders was so adamant in his book on that case that the case was only solved because someone decided to pay attention to a couple of the local folks who had a source everyone was ignoring or simply rejecting. He also went on to write that he believed there was a much broader conspiracy with more people and more murders than were ever acknowledged....yet he seemed to drop that sort of skepticism when turning to write on the the Kennedy assassination.

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, just a bit more friendly advice. With all due respect to law enforcement its my experience in looking a many high profile murders that as soon as they have a basic set of evidence pointing to a name, that individual becomes a prime suspect and that is where they focus their attention. Once they have the person in custody its all about them because they move to an evidence collection mode to support prosecution. After all at that point its either the local police working for a DA or the Bureau working for a Justice Dept prosecutor.

You can see an almost instant turn around once they get the first hard evidence, especially if its linking what appears to be a murder weapon to their suspect. Like it or not at that point open ended investigations start to fade away.... Based on that its no real surprise that once DPD had a suspect in custody and some evidence, Hoover would start talking about Oswald as the shooter -- it reassures people, it makes those involved feel vindicated in at least catching the murderer and its good for closure.

The real point of interest is when Hoover closed down the FBI investigation and focused it on Oswald alone....that was not Friday afternoon or night. In fact he didn't totally focus it on Oswald until after his conversation with Johnson on Saturday morning -- and he was still offering his opinion that the case against Oswald was weak as of Sunday morning.

Well, Larry, that observation also tallies with what I see so far.

It's an important observation, and it may factor hugely in my final analysis. Right now, however, I'm perusing Manchester's book for further clues.

By the end of today I should finalize my own analysis.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

P.S. Thanks also to Gary Mack who sent me a clearer copy of Memo #1, showing the timestamps more clearly, leading to many corrections above.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

Paul...

I hope you realize how we've been more than patient and nothing you've posted suggests that Hoover had concluded anything in time to inform Bundy to inform AF-1 or that Hoover was at the apex of that decision pyramid.

I truly believe you overestimate Hoover's influence in all things domestic.

We need to look at what the SS is doing at the same time as the FBI and DPD.. key members of the DPD who appear to knwo what needs to be done (Hill, Westbrook, Sawyer, Stringfellow, Lumpkin, Boone, Stovall/Rose/McCabe)

Key members of the FBI though do not seem to be on the same conspirial page as SS and DPD - at least not for the first few hours when the FBI/DPD is shuttling Zap around.... but it's the SS that gets a film to DC that night, not the FBI.

The more I read, the more I see the SS and CIA keeping the FBI in the dark. The FBI are TOLD what is going on, they don't discover much of anything on their own... they are TOLD I think to take all the evidence on the 22nd and return incriminating evidence that was not in Dallas to begin with.... this is what the FBI excelled at, and I believe this is what they did. The DPD key personnel were playing their part as many were already involved with Military intelligence..

I'm not looking to you to eat crow Paul, just acknowledge that Wrone and you may have jumped to far for that conclusion - and that most of the supporting documentation leads us in a different direction.

DJ

EDIT: can you post the earliest document you know of using the term "LONE NUT"?

Edited May 18, 2015 by David Josephs

[Larry Hancock]

To add to that David, we have William Law's great work with the FBI agents at Bethesda, their own very early report after midnight and their later comments....all suggesting that individual agents and the FBI generally was pretty accurately reporting things as well as their own observations until Saturday morning. Then things begin to change, just as they do with the MC tapes and photos over the weekend. On the other hand, the Secret Service handling of evidence gets to be pretty questionable early on, a mix of questionable criminal investigation procedures - which might be a training thing - but with something potentially more dubious going on higher up.