Bill Simpich's State Secret

[Paul Trejo]

Paul...

I hope you realize how we've been more than patient and nothing you've posted suggests that Hoover had

The more I read, the more I see the SS and CIA keeping the FBI in the dark. The FBI are TOLD what is going on, they don't discover much of anything on their own... they are TOLD I think to take all the evconcluded anything in time to inform Bundy to inform AF-1 or that Hoover was at the apex of that decision pyramid.

I truly believe you overestimate Hoover's influence in all things domestic.

We need to look at what the SS is doing at the same time as the FBI and DPD.. key members of the DPD who appear to knwo what needs to be done (Hill, Westbrook, Sawyer, Stringfellow, Lumpkin, Boone, Stovall/Rose/McCabe)

Key members of the FBI though do not seem to be on the same conspirial page as SS and DPD - at least not for the first few hours when the FBI/DPD is shuttling Zap around.... but it's the SS that gets a film to DC that night, not the FBI.

idence on the 22nd and return incriminating evidence that was not in Dallas to begin with.... this is what the FBI excelled at, and I believe this is what they did. The DPD key personnel were playing their part as many were already involved with Military intelligence..

I'm not looking to you to eat crow Paul, just acknowledge that Wrone and you may have jumped to far for that conclusion - and that most of the supporting documentation leads us in a different direction.

DJ

EDIT: can you post the earliest document you know of using the term "LONE NUT"?

Well, David, I'm not sure I'd use the word "patient" to describe most of the members on this thread, but Larry Hancock has certainly been patient and scholarly.

Still, you're quite mistaken about the timeline, even now. Looking at FBI memo #62 109060-59, which is timestamped 4:01 EST or Washington DC time, we must recognize this is also 3:01 CST, or Dallas time.

In other words, the thinking of Hoover as expressed in FBI memo #62 109060-59 clearly identifies Lee Harvey Oswald AND NOBODY ELSE as a prime suspect. This thinking occurs in plenty of time for Hoover to have also telephoned McGeorge Bundy to share this data, in time for Bundy to call LBJ on AF-1.

Were you confused about the time difference between DC and Dallas?

I don't overestimate Hoover's influence in domestic US affairs in 1963 -- he was beloved by most Americans, and when people used the term, "Director," in Washington DC in early 1960's, even though there were many 'directors' of organizations in DC, there was only one "Director."

Of course we need to look at the SS at the same time frame. But let's focus on one thing at a time. Right now let's focus on Hoover until we're all satisfied that the data has been fully accounted for. I'm not ready to relinquish that duty yet.

Still, I'm interested in your opinion that "key members of the FBI do not seem to be on the same conspiratorial page" as the Secret Service and the Dallas Police Department, "at least not for the first few hours." That is clearly worth exploring further.

In your reading, the SS and DPD are keeping the FBI in the dark. I don't see that, yet, but I'm open to evidence.

The trouble with the FBI investigation is that they are very early ordered by the Director to ENFORCE a Lone Shooter theory -- no matter what the damn evidence says.

The FBI begins tampering with the JFK murder evidence before 11/22/1963 is over. We see it in full bloom at Bethesda Naval Hospital, and I grant that the FBI was not alone in the effort at Bethesda.

The notion that Hoover ordered the FBI to enforce a Lone Shooter theory is still solid, IMHO, because the FBI Agents simply would not take orders from anybody else. They wouldn't.

Yes, the FBI obeyed orders and did what they were TOLD -- but only by J. Edgar Hoover -- and NOBODY ELSE.

Also, Hoover isn't taking orders from anybody at all -- that's very clear in the four FBI documents I typed in above.

I'm not ready to eat crow, yet, David, although I do admit that on the surface, there is nothing in those four FBI documents that plainly, directly indicate that Hoover gave orders to this FBI men, or to anybody, to enforce a "Lone Shooter" theory at all costs.

As Larry Hancock suggests, such an order seems to have been delivered later that same night.

Nor do I agree with your conclusion that we must go "in a different direction." On the contrary -- I will forego a 100% victory, but I will still seek an 80% victory from this data.

Oddly, my analysis of the Manchester book leads me to modify my views somewhat. On page 257 of The Death of a President (1967), Manchester describes Hoover's second call to RFK like this:

----------- Begin quotation from William Manchester -----------------

The extension there rang. It was J. Edgar Hoover again..."The President's dead," he said snappily and hung up. He expressed no compassion; he did not seem to be upset. His voice, as the Attorney General recalled afterward, was "not quite as excited as if he were reporting the fact that he had found a Communist on the faulty of Howard University." Ordinarily garrulous, he had suddenly turned curt with his superior. It would be charitable to attribute the swift change to the stresses of that afternoon. Yet although Bob Kennedy continued in the Cabinet for over nine months, Hoover, whose office was on the same floor, never walked over to offer his condolences.

---------- End quotation from William Manchester --------------------

This, to some readers, might suggest that Hoover was hiding his shame, blame and guilt for the JFK murder. I don't see it that way. It is well known that JFK and RFK were planning on enforcing Hoover's upcoming retirement, and that they disagreed sharply with Hoover about MLK and Civil Rights. (Hoover, like Ex-General Walker, regarded these as Communist plots.) So there was already animosity.

Rather, in the past decade, when Gerry Patrick Hemming was on this very Forum, he confessed to us that he and his crew in Interpen were given a wad of money by RFK to find some dirt on J. Edgar Hoover. (This was because Hoover had compromising photographs of JFK.) So, Interpen bought a kilo of top grade weed and took it to the New Orleans underworld, and in a few days returned to Gerry Patrick Hemming with their prize -- photographs of J. Edgar Hoover at gay parties wearing drag.

So, RFK had proved that he could return Hoover's blackmail policies with a flair. Hoover was vanquished, but of course he hated RFK more than ever -- and of course, Hoover was embarrassed beyond measure. So, Hoover's callous treatment of RFK is easily explained by Hemming's confession.

But I did find something in Manchester's book that gave me a shock. There on page 273 we read:

------------------ Begin Quoting Manchester --------------------

Thirty-seven years before, when an FBI man was slain in Illinois, Hoover had pushed through a statute protecting his agents. He hadn't dreamed that Presidents of the United States weren't already covered...Since 1902 every Secret Service chief had urged Congress to outlaw Presidential assassination, and all had failed. Threatening the life of a Chief Executive was illegal, but if the threat were carried out, if the bravo succeeded, the US Code was silent. There was one exception. Should the assassin be part of a plot, the FBI could move in. This assassin had acted alone, however, and as soon as that became clear local authorities had exclusive jurisdiction. He was guilty only of a Texas felony.

------------------ End Quoting Manchester --------------------

I quickly saw a new issue that I'd never considered before, so I must again thank Larry Hancock for directing me to Manchester this morning.

Notice the bold sentence: the FBI could only move in if the Assassin was "part of a plot." Otherwise, Hoover could justify doing a supremely sloppy job with the JFK investigation -- in fact, he had no legal duty to investigate it at all.

Therefore -- and at the very minimum -- it appears that at some point, Hoover insisted on a Lone Shooter WITH ALL HIS MIGHT, partly because a Lone Shooter absolved the FBI from all responsibility in the case.

This fact has multiple implications, and I'm only starting to grasp them.

So, David, even though there is no "smoking gun" in these four FBI memos cited by Professor Wrone, one can still see very clearly that Hoover has arrived at a SINGLE SUSPECT by 3:01pm CST -- with enough time to inform McGeorge Bundy before his call to AF-1.

As Larry Hancock also said about Police in general, "as soon as they have a basic set of evidence pointing to a name, that individual becomes a prime suspect and that is where they focus their attention."

That might explain Hoover's behavior -- but more is needed. We must have access, as Larry says, to conversations that Hoover had with LBJ and others later in the day and that night.

In any case, I'll still provide my analysis of these four FBI memos later this afternoon.

Finally, David: I don't know the earliest use of the terms, "Lone Shooter" or "Lone Nut". Clearly they are absent from these four FBI memos. I'm hoping others can offer their own opinions for further research.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 18, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Here's my analysis of the four FBI memos identified by Professor David Wrone as highly significant evidence of J. Edgar Hoover's approach to the JFK murder.

(1) FBI memo #62 109060-58 is five memos in one.

1.1. At 1:43pm EST, l3 minutes after the JFK shooting, Hoover called RFK with the news that JFK was shot in Dallas, possibly fatal. RFK heard this for the first time, and Hoover said he would seek to work with the SS.

COMMENT: Manchester wrote that Hoover merely announced JFK was shot, and abruptly hung up. Hoover saw it differently.

1.2. At 1:48pm EST, 15 minutes after the JFK shooting, FBI agent Gordon Shanklin called Hoover from Dallas with false rumors, viz. the wrong corner, a Negro suspect, and claims that police surrounded "the building. Hoover told Shanklin to stay in touch with the SS and DPD. About Connally and LBJ, Shanklin had correct data.

COMMENT: SS Agent Forrest Sorrels testified that he drove to Parkland Hospital, and then drove back to Dealey Plaza, and walked into the back door of the TSBD perhaps 40 minutes after the JFK murder, and nobody was guarding the building. So it is odd that Shanklin would claim that "the building" was surrounded only 15 minutes after the JFK murder. Was Shanklin being manipulated by Dallas folks, or just spreading a rumor? Rumor or not, I'd like to know Shanklin's source.

1.3. At 2:07pm EST, 37 minutes after the JFK shooting, Shanklin told Hoover that JFK was in bad shape, not dead, though priests were summoned. Shanklin said the shots came from the 4th floor, that the FBI is helping to search the building, but still can't say if the shooter was white or black. Shanklin thinks the rifle was a Winchester. Shanklin knows the correct reports from Parkland. Shanklin offers to escort RFK in Dallas, if he comes.

COMMENT: I find nothing ominous in Shanklin's offer to escort RFK. I do find it odd that a rifle was found, but Shanklin reports that the 4th floor, rather than the 6th floor, was the rifle site. It may be odd that the DPD report said the found rifle was a Mauser, but Shanklin reports it was a Winchester (and later the DPD would change that to Manlicher-Carcano), yet in the initial chaos of such an event, confusion and rumors fly by too fast. This may be innocuous.

1.4. At 2:10pm EST, 40 minutes after JFK was murdered, Hoover called RFK to say JFK was in critical condition, but RFK had more current info: JFK was dead. Hoover told RFK that Connally was still in bad shape, but Jackie and Mrs. Connally were safe. Hoover then shared with RFK what Shanklin said; shots came from the 4th floor of "a building" which was now surrounded, and a Winchester rifle was found in efforts by the FBI, SS and DPD. Hoover and RFK briefly spoke about a trip to Dallas and an FBI escort there.

COMMENT: I find nothing suspicious here -- Hoover reported up the chain of command exactly what he had heard from his subordinates.

1.5. At 2:17pm EST, 47 minutes after JFK was murdered, Shanklin reported that JFK was dead, but the Media wasn't being told yet. Hoover told Shanklin to "go all out" to find the culprit, and help in every way "in the building." Shanklin says the DPD found 3 or 4 shells, and that the Sheriff's Office arrested one man. Shanklin shares a false rumor that an SS man was also killed. Shanklin decided to stay in Dallas, and Hoover agreed. Hoover had no decision from RFK about needing an FBI escort in Dallas.

COMMENT: The Sheriff's Office arrested one man -- yet this clearly wasn't Lee Harvey Oswald, who would be arrested in another 33 minutes or so. Still, I find nothing suspicious here; Shanklin is still sharing rumors, but rumors are most common in chaotic environments like this.

(2) FBI memo #62 109060-56 is from 2:21pm EST, 51 minutes after JFK was murdered. Lee Harvey Oswald is still running free. This is Hoover's call to the Secret Service Chief, James Rowley, to see where the FBI could help. Rowley disavowed any rumor that an SS man was killed. Hoover had no better data. Hoover then repeated to Rowley the rumors he had just heard from Shanklin. Rowley suspected subversives from Mexico and Cuba -- i.e. left-wingers. Hoover reminded Rowley of the KKK threat in the USA -- i.e. right-wingers.

COMMENT: I find nothing suspicious in this memo. Hoover is not inventing anything; has no agenda; and is merely repeating what his trusted subordinates told him. Hard facts are still lacking to everybody at this point.

(3) FBI memo #62 109060-59 is from 4:01pm EST. This is 2.5 hours after the JFK murder, and 1 hour, 11 minutes after the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald. The delay between this memo and the previous memo is more than 1.5 hours. Previous gaps were only a few minutes each.

3.1. Hoover called RFK with news about the shooter: Lee Harvey Oswald, employee of the TSBD.

3.2. Hoover shared rumors that after Oswald left the building he encountered two DPD officers two blocks away and killed one with a pistol, having left his rifle in the building.

3.3. The FBI had a file on Oswald as an FPCC trouble-maker. Oswald was now at the DPD, as the FBI helped interrogate Oswald.

3.4. Hoover told RFK that Oswald was no Communist, but went to Russia, stayed three years; returned to the USA in June, 1962. Oswald was "mean-minded" but no Communist party member.

3.5. Hoover said Oswald went to Cuba several times, was interviewed by the FBI for that, and refused to cooperate.

3.6. Hoover offered to take over the case for the Secret Service.

3.7. Hoover told RFK that AF-1 left Dallas with JFK's body; that LBJ was sworn in, and riding AF-1 back to DC.

3.8. Hoover shared other rumors about possible conspiracies in Long Beach and the Woodner Apartments in DC.

COMMENT: The 1.5 hour delay in this 4:01pm EST memo, when the others were only a few minutes apart, is probably explained by the excitement from FBI reports of the arrest and interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas at 2:50pm EST.

In this memo of a call to RFK, Hoover seems confident that Oswald was the Lone Shooter "without accomplices," although he does not use those exact terms. Hoover still got mistaken reports from the FBI about the Tippit slaying, but some errors would be normal at this early stage of an investigation.

It is interesting that the FBI had a file on Oswald as an FPCC trouble-maker in New Orleans. Clearly this was from the time when Oswald was arrested for his fight with Carlos Bringuier, and at the NOLA police station, demanded to speak with an FBI agent.

Hoover knows that Oswald is no Communist, although he lived in Russia for 2.5 years until June, 1962. Hoover knew that Oswald still retained his US citizenship.

It is interesting that Hoover knew for a fact that Oswald no Communist party member. That is, Oswald had never been observed by the FBI at any Communist party meeting in the USA; or associating with any known US Communist.

Hoover said Oswald went to Cuba several times, and was interviewed by the FBI for those trips, but Oswald told the FBI it was none of their business. This is interesting because the Warren Commission revealed no such trips. Marina Oswald revealed no such trips. Priscilla Johnson McMillan revealed no such trips. I realize that Hoover repeated rumors that he heard from his trusted FBI agents -- so probably this was such a rumor -- yet again, what was the original source?

It is interesting that Hoover offered RFK to take over the JFK case for the Secret Service, although in cases of a Lone Shooter (Lone Nut) the FBI had no jurisdiction, and Hoover knew that. Most likely Hoover was merely being polite with RFK.

(4) FBI memo #62 109060-57 is from 5:15pm EST, which is 3 hours and 45 minutes after the JFK murder, and 2 hours and 25 minutes after the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald. Assistant Attorney General Norbert A. Schlei called Hoover for help writing a "proclamation" for LBJ. His main question was -- what type of person killed JFK.

4.1. In his list of possible assassins, the types of disappointed office seekers, political extremists or "segregationist madmen" were listed.

4.2. Hoover repeated to Schlei the same data that he had told RFK in the previous hour. In this context, Hoover called Oswald a "Nut".

4.3. For Schlei's "proclamation" Hoover included data about previous Presidential assassinations -- and concluded that almost all assassins were anarchist or communist.

4.4. Hoover emphasized for Schlei, that even though Oswald was a member of the FPCC, that Oswald was "never a leader" of the FPCC.

4.5. Hoover told Schlei bluntly that he thought Oswald "would be the one."

4.6. Hoover told Schlei that "Oswald is the principal suspect in the case;" that FBI planned to obtain the bullets from JFK's body, to tie the empty shells to the bullets in a court trial.

COMMENT: I first note that among "segregationist madmen" in America, Ex-General Edwin Walker was so known to J. Edgar Hoover. I take this to be Hoover's term, not Schlei's term.

In telling Schlei that Oswald was a "Nut", and that he was not a member of the Communist Party, Hoover comes very close to calling Oswald a "Lone Nut."

Most important in this memo, IMHO, is that Hoover emphasizes that Oswald, although a member, was "never a leader" of the FPCC. Yet NOLA news media consistently reported that Oswald was a "Director" of the FPCC in NOLA. How could Hoover be so certain that Oswald was "never a leader" unless he obtained this data from somebody who knew that Oswald's FPCC antics in NOLA were merely a charade?

Even today, some people are fooled by Oswald's NOLA FPCC antics, and still think of Oswald as an FPCC advocate. It seems that Jim Garrison's capable exposure of the Fake FPCC branch in NOLA went over their heads.

So, Hoover seems aware that the NOLA FPCC, and especially Oswald's role as Director of the NOLA FPCC, was mere role-playing. I see no better explanation for Hoover's knowledge of Oswald's status.

Further, the plausible source for this data would have been Guy Banister himself -- a man who once worked for Hoover in a high position in Chicago.

Further, Hoover told Schlei bluntly that he thought Oswald "would be the one," and that "Oswald is the principal suspect in the case."

Finally, the fact that the FBI planned to obtain the bullets from JFK's body to tie the empty shells to the bullets in a court trial, yet this was never accomplished -- instead, the autopsy reports were made Top Secret -- is probably strong evidence that the bullets in JFK's brain and body failed to match these empty shells.

CONCLUDING COMMENT: The FBI memos here that are dated before 4pm EST show the poor quality of Hoover's information, but also show that he deeply trusted his FBI Agents to bring him reliable data.

After 4pm EST, however, the information is brisk and mostly correct, because Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested, in custody, under interrogation, the rifle found in the TSBD was being connected with Oswald, and no other suspects were matching.

Hoover clearly trusted the data he received from SAC Gordon Shanklin in Dallas -- whether the data was mistaken or correct, Hoover felt confident in sharing it with any heads of State with whom he spoke. (Whether this was an exposure remains to be seen. The memos themselves, however, clearly show Hoover's faith in Shanklin.)

More urgently, regarding my original theory, that Professor Wrone was right when he claimed that J. Edgar Hoover mandated the "Lone Nut" theory of Lee Harvey Oswald to all his FBI Agents before 3pm EST on 11/22/1963, I have a mixed result.

(i) Hoover does use the word "Nut" in these memos -- I count three times.

(ii) Hoover also insists that Oswald was *not* a member of the Communist Party. He says this multiple times.

(iii) Hoover also insists that Oswald was "never a leader" of the FPCC.

(iv) Hoover concludes to Schlei that "Oswald was the ONE."

Therefore, one might plausibly surmise from this that Hoover regarded Oswald as guilty, and also as having no plotters with whom he conspired -- all before 3pm CST.

The notion of Oswald as a "Lone Shooter" is plain from these four FBI memos, although not explicitly stated in those words.

One may therefore conclude that the seeds of the "Lone Shooter" mandate, which came to dominate the Warren Commission direction, may be present in these four memos, however, the actual mandate itself -- which was my main theme -- is absent in these memos.

I therefore join Larry Hancock in his call for an exploration of further memoranda and recorded conversations later in the afternoon and evening of 11/22/1963 for the origin of the "Lone Nut" mandate for the FBI and for the Warren Commission program.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited May 19, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, as you go further through the calls and memos, you actually find that Hoover does come up with a Federal statute giving the FBI the right to pursue the assassination as a Federal crime. I can't give you the statute off the top of my head but you should find it in Chapter 15 of SWHT, I think it is mentioned in a Sunday morning call to one of Johnson's aides ....as I recall, Hoover continues to note even by Sunday morning that the actual evidence against Oswald seems to be weak and of course by that afternoon we have the FBI memo initiating a report which is going to present the case for Oswald as the assassin, a report that is going to be challenging to prepare.

As to the further calls, primarily the ones from DC to Texas, ordering no conspiracy charges and a total focus on Oswald, you should also find that in Chapter 15. My perspective is that Hoover is certainly focusing on Oswald as the assassin on Friday afternoon, but based on the work of the DPD not his people. On Saturday morning he talks of an impersonation in Mexico City, suggesting matters are not as simple as it seems but Johnson does not respond and at that point things start go go murky. However, again from a study of Johnson's own calls over the next few days, a spelled out in SWHT, its clear that Johnson is driving matters and only occasionally calling Hoover to either tell him what to do or give him instructions on how things are going to go i.e. the FBI will prepare a report and the Texas panel will rubber stamp it, and later the Texas panel becomes the Warren Commission.

[David Josephs]

LOL... no mixed results Paul... you were simply mistaken about Hoover being the sole originator of the "Lone Nut" theory in this case. His actions and those of his agents do not begin to remove others from consideration until the 11/23 memo to STOP looking - they have the man.

The calls from the WH on the 22nd to discourage "conspiracy" allegations is much more telling than anything Hoover offers... and in fact we see Hoover claiming 2 weeks later that the FBI report states conclusions against his will and desire... that the DOJ/WC/?? has more to say about it than Hoover and POTUS. (no surprise to me, Hoover and LBJ were allowed to stay since they could be counted upon to cooperate - toe the company line... which is what they did. THEY got to choose very little if anything IMO)

Dec 12th - 3 days after the FBI report is delivered:

Mr. Rankin of the difficulty about the Department's desire to issue certain conclusions; that they wanted to issue a statement before the report went to the Commission with the conclusion Oswald was the assassin, no foreign or subversive elements involved, and Rubenstein and Oswald had no connection; that I flatly disagreed.

They took it up with the White House and the President agreed with me that we should reach no conclusion; nevertheless the report does reach two conclusions in substance.

Please don't back-peddle all over yourself to change what you first said. The assumptions you need to make in your “rationale for my statement” post assumes you have a knowledge of the inner workings of Hoover’s mind you simply do not have.

“Looking more deeply into the documents” is something I’ve been doing for 15 years. If/When you find something to support your theory, I’m sure you will post it. Until then, please don’t try and bury the fact there is no evidence to support your conclusion in the same manner as the WCR – mountains of unrelated yet “close” statements which have no bearing on the conclusions offered.

Hoover did NOT create the Lone Nut solution, did NOT tell Bundy to tell AF-1 and did NOT proceed under that “conclusion” until Nov 23rd when he was told that Mexico is not in play and that Oswald is the only accused.

“THEY”, as Hoover mentions above, is not part of Hoover’s “US”

(Larry - assaulting a federal officer?)

[Larry Hancock]

David, I think it was actually something like "conspiracy to deprive an individual of his legal rights" and Hoover was taking the position that murder would do that... Now the really interesting part of it if I'm remembering the statute correctly (and yes I could look it up in my book but...) Hoover was actually justifying a federal investigation based on a "conspiracy" violation...sort of ironic...

[David Josephs]

David, I think it was actually something like "conspiracy to deprive an individual of his legal rights" and Hoover was taking the position that murder would do that... Now the really interesting part of it if I'm remembering the statute correctly (and yes I could look it up in my book but...) Hoover was actually justifying a federal investigation based on a "conspiracy" violation...sort of ironic...

In true WCR format... conspiracy? "that was what they FIRST said"

[Paul Trejo]

LOL... no mixed results Paul... you were simply mistaken about Hoover being the sole originator of the "Lone Nut" theory in this case. His actions and those of his agents do not begin to remove others from consideration until the 11/23 memo to STOP looking - they have the man.

The calls from the WH on the 22nd to discourage "conspiracy" allegations is much more telling than anything Hoover offers... and in fact we see Hoover claiming 2 weeks later that the FBI report states conclusions against his will and desire... that the DOJ/WC/?? has more to say about it than Hoover and POTUS. (no surprise to me, Hoover and LBJ were allowed to stay since they could be counted upon to cooperate - toe the company line... which is what they did. THEY got to choose very little if anything IMO)

Dec 12th - 3 days after the FBI report is delivered:

Mr. Rankin of the difficulty about the Department's desire to issue certain conclusions; that they wanted to issue a statement before the report went to the Commission with the conclusion Oswald was the assassin, no foreign or subversive elements involved, and Rubenstein and Oswald had no connection; that I flatly disagreed.

They took it up with the White House and the President agreed with me that we should reach no conclusion; nevertheless the report does reach two conclusions in substance.

Please don't back-peddle all over yourself to change what you first said. The assumptions you need to make in your “rationale for my statement” post assumes you have a knowledge of the inner workings of Hoover’s mind you simply do not have.

“Looking more deeply into the documents” is something I’ve been doing for 15 years. If/When you find something to support your theory, I’m sure you will post it. Until then, please don’t try and bury the fact there is no evidence to support your conclusion in the same manner as the WCR – mountains of unrelated yet “close” statements which have no bearing on the conclusions offered.

Hoover did NOT create the Lone Nut solution, did NOT tell Bundy to tell AF-1 and did NOT proceed under that “conclusion” until Nov 23rd when he was told that Mexico is not in play and that Oswald is the only accused.

“THEY”, as Hoover mentions above, is not part of Hoover’s “US” ...

Well, David, basically you're right about this.

I was pushing too hard that the hours before 3pm CST were the crucial hours for the FBI position on the "Lone Nut" theory -- and now I do have to take those words back.

So, OK, I was mistaken.

I still think that Bill Simpich's State Secret (2014) absolves the CIA high-command from a JFK murder plot -- but now I cannot absolve Hoover as quickly as I expected.

My new focus for Hoover will be the events leading up to the 11/23/1963 FBI mandate to stop looking for other suspects because, "they have the man."

You and Larry have both focused on calls from LBJ later on 11/22/1963 as important factors in that decision. Please be more specific regarding your sources. Does the Mary Ferrell web site also host those documents? What were the exact hours of the day you had in mind?

Yet I still think you must answer the question -- if Hoover ordered the FBI to stop looking beyond Oswald on 11/23/1963, then why did Hoover himself express doubts (as you claim) weeks later?

That is, insofar as Hoover by 11/23/1963 mandated a "Lone Nut" theory of Oswald -- why would he contradict this in writing unless this was a trick on his part to manipulate subordinates? I still think that must be answered cogently.

I've always said that we have "knowledge of the inner workings of Hoover’s mind" only by reading his own words in his own memoranda. I never claimed to be a mind-reader. I always based my argument on his memoranda -- and Dr. Wrone's interpretation of that same memoranda.

As for "looking deeply into documents," Americans have been doing this for 50 years -- and myself, for 20. Yet it isn't enough to put in the time -- one must also develop the logic. Lots of folks have put in more decades than I have, into this reading -- but some of them don't work enough with the logic. That's my focus.

Therefore, David, this round goes to you. Congratulations. I will no longer say that Hoover created the Lone Nut solution by 3pm CST on 11/22/1963, and called McGeorge Bundy about that time to tell LBJ on AF-1. You have my word.

Nevertheless, I now wish to dig more deeply into those specific 11/22/1963 and 11/23/1963 documents. My first question is -- what was the EXACT content of the Bundy phone call to AF-1 -- does anybody know with exactitude?

Once that is clear, then I'd like to see all documentation that happens after 3pm CST on 11/22/1963, for the next 36 hours.

Finally, David, as for your theory that LBJ and Hoover were "toeing the company line" of masters above them who were pulling their strings -- I feel justified in my skepticism -- and I now ask for your sources.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 19, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, David will certainly provide his own answers but to help a bit, let me respond as well:

"You and Larry have both focused on calls from LBJ later on 11/22/1963 as important factors in that decision. Please be more specific regarding your sources. Does the Mary Ferrell web site also host those documents? What were the exact hours of the day you had in mind?"

....As far as the calls go there are many sources, Manchester discusses some calls from Johnson, however the most concrete official list is Johnson's own telephone call log which you can get from the LBJ library. When I started all this there were no documents on the internet so I had/have paper copies of these things. Today you can find the call log for the period of the assassination online at the library, or at least it was, I've not checked lately. In addition you can find the transcript for the calls to AF1 on Bill Kelley's web site. Beyond that, I list a good number of the calls in Chapter 15 of SWHT as well as the following two chapters which deal with Johnson, I'm sure some are footnoted to sources but not sure how many.... Of course there are problems with this, ranging from the tape/transcript mystery about the Hoover/Johnson call to the many questions about how comprehensive a record we have of the AF1 tapes. I can tell you that you can trace exactly when and how those on the plane were advised of Oswald's arrest and that matches to the AP1 wire coverage of the arrest and announcement of his name.

Yet I still think you must answer the question -- if Hoover ordered the FBI to stop looking beyond Oswald on 11/23/1963, then why did Hoover himself express doubts (as you claim) weeks later?

....personally I think Hoover came to realize the official story was being driven to no conspiracy, regardless of what evidence turned up or the doubts he shared with Johnson. In that sense I believe he was experienced enough to essentially know that a full, open investigation had been closed down and there was more to the story, a lot more. And I think that upset him as a career law enforcement professional - I don't at all like the man but that was what he was and I although he might have played ball and gone along with it, his remarks to the young man at the country club suggest to me that deep inside he knew the consequences of what would happen if the American public became aware that there had been obstruction of justice at the highest level of the government - it would indeed have brought down the Administration and possibly more than that.

That is, insofar as Hoover by 11/23/1963 mandated a "Lone Nut" theory of Oswald -- why would he contradict this in writing unless this was a trick on his part to manipulate subordinates? I still think that must be answered cogently.

.....My view is that Hoover was following orders from Johnson, he had to do so to preserve his career...however he himself was not satisfied that there had been no conspiracy and he certainly was not happy with the CIA...that dissatisfaction came out on occasion.

Nevertheless, I now with to dig more deeply into those specific 11/22/1963 and 11/23/1963 documents. My first question is -- what was the EXACT content of the Bundy phone call to AF-1 -- does anybody know with exactitude?

.....you should be able to find what is on the record by reviewing the transcript on Kelley's web site; I think Manchester also interviewed Bundy and relates his description of the conversation.

[David Josephs]

Well, David, basically you're right about this.

I was pushing too hard that the hours before 3pm CST were the crucial hours for the FBI position on the "Lone Nut" theory -- and now I do have to take those words back.

So, OK, I was mistaken. Appreciated Paul – theories are best presented here just for that purpose, proof or not. Maybe in the future you acquire the docs and evidence first then state a theory based on them. Makes it easier for everyone

I still think that Bill Simpich's State Secret (2014) absolves the CIA high-command from a JFK murder plot -- but now I cannot absolve Hoover as quickly as I expected. Simply because a mole-hunt was potentially in process in Mexico, there is no connection to the absolution of the CIA in JFK’s death? How do you make that connection? The actions Oswald was either steered toward or fabricated in the evidence were easily duplicitous. Had Vallee been Oswald, Ozzie’s FPCC infiltration and other “intel” duties would have continued. But since that did not happen, these same actions which could be seen as benign to self-incrimination at the time could easily be turned against him.

My new focus for Hoover will be the events leading up to the 11/23/1963 FBI mandate to stop looking for other suspects because, "they have the man." If you’re in a position to offer what Hoover and gang did during the evening of 11/22 I’d be very interested. I do know that Rowley had a Zfilm and that a top FBI staffer claims to have seen the film after midnight in DC. The FBI is at Kleins all night where in one doc Waldman puts the microfilm into a safe, in another he gives it to the FBI at that time, the FBI printing the “order blank and envelope” themselves.

You and Larry have both focused on calls from LBJ later on 11/22/1963 as important factors in that decision. Please be more specific regarding your sources. Does the Mary Ferrell web site also host those documents? What were the exact hours of the day you had in mind?

Yet I still think you must answer the question -- if Hoover ordered the FBI to stop looking beyond Oswald on 11/23/1963, then why did Hoover himself express doubts (as you claim) weeks later?

This is not a claim Paul – YOU claim the letter he writes on the 12^th was for cover yet you offer nothing to substantiate this. Until you do, it means what it says – Rankin says THEY want a conclusion in the FBI report that it was Ozzie alone – Hoover says he did not want to do this and LBJ could not help him. What else do you want?

That is, insofar as Hoover by 11/23/1963 mandated a "Lone Nut" theory of Oswald -- why would he contradict this in writing unless this was a trick on his part to manipulate subordinates? I still think that must be answered cogently.

You are making stuff up again Paul. You have yet to prove “as Hoover by 11/23/1963 mandated a "Lone Nut" theory of Oswald” all he did was pull back on all the other bush beating since they had their man “according to the DPD”. But something definitely happens over the night of 11/22 to stop him from pursuing a conspiracy – the Katzenbach memo maybe?

I have always said that we have "knowledge of the inner workings of Hoover’s mind" only by reading his own words in his own memoranda. I never claimed to be a mind-reader. I'd always based my argument on memoranda -- and Dr. Wrone's interpretation of that same memoranda.

As for "looking deeply into documents," Americans have been doing this for 50 years -- and myself, 20. It is not enough to put in the time -- one must also develop the logic. Lots of folks have put in more decades than I into this reading -- but some of them don't work enough with the logic.

So, David, this round goes to you. Congratulations. I will no longer say that Hoover created the Lone Nut solution by 3pm CST on 11/22/1963, and called McGeorge Bundy about it at that time to tell LBJ on AF-1. You have my word. I do believe until proven that this is a more accurate statement of what occurred.

Nevertheless, I now with to dig more deeply into those specific 11/22/1963 and 11/23/1963 documents. My first question is -- what was the EXACT content of the Bundy phone call to AF-1 -- does anybody know with exactitude?

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2012/03/off-tapes-whats-missing-from-af1-radio.html

Theodore.H. White, author of the The Making of the President series of books, who first described Jackie Kennedy’s “Camelot,” wrote in The Making of a President 1964, "There is a tape recording in the archives of the government which best recaptures the sound of the hours as it waited for leadership. It is a recording of all the conversations in the air, monitored by the Signal Corps Midwestern center ‘Liberty,’ between Air Force One in Dallas, the Cabinet plane over the Pacific, and the Joint Chiefs’ Communications Center in Washington….On the flight the party learned that there was no conspiracy, learned the identity of Oswald and his arrest; and the President’s mind turned to the duties of consoling the stricken and guiding the quick."
2) White, T. H. Making of a President 1964.

Once that is clear, then I'd like to see all documentation that happens after 3pm CST on 11/22/1963, for the next 36 hours. Get in line – lol. There are complete lists of communications but who knows how complete. I too would like to find the first use of LONE NUT but my gut tells me it was a Media thing…

Finally, David, as for your theory that LBJ and Hoover were "toeing the company line" of masters above them who were pulling their strings -- I feel justified in my skepticism -- and I now ask for your sources.

A while back I needed to get away from “JFK assassination all the time” thinking and look at things from a different POV. I went into the history of spying, intelligence, banking and lawyers… I found that the first spies were all from very wealthy families since they could pay their own way. These “elite” – the sons of the wealthiest, created their own networks throughout the world and did their best to keep the Military, Industry and Congress (who was run by their families) informed.

As I searched the fringe of JFK I remembered the Bell helicopter situation and felt that the buying of Bell MAY lead to the “Sponsor” level to use a DPF term.

I came to find and research a company called TEXTRON which bought Bell in June 1960 after the VP of the Bank of Boston speaks with CIA general Cabell (yes, his brother) about the prospects of helicopter use in SE Asia. (Nixon was the presumed next POTUS at this point).

TEXTRON was formed by Arthur Little’s nephew Royal Little to disrupt the US NE Textile industry by buying up the companies and tearing them apart to open the way for UK imports. The players involved are at the top of the food chain: Bank of England, Sun Life of London/Montreal, Bank of Boston, Boston Fabians, Prudential Life, John Hancock Life (JP Morgan), Cravath-Swaine-Moore, Choate-Hall-Stewart, Dillon-Reade, G. William Miller….

TEXTRON was the world’s first conglomerate and moved from textiles to defense with the formation of American Research and Development Corp in 1946 (the year after the FBI’s SIS was disbanded in favor of the OSS). With the recommendation of General Cabell, and a most unusual loan from Prudential Life (6-year grace period on payments, unsecured loan).

At the time of purchase, Bell was in the red by $100M yet the Textron chairman stated their objective from this purchase was a 25% pretax profit – from Day 1. While business boomed in ’61 & ’62 as SE Asia heated up but did not burst out until after 11/22/63.

This in turn led me to the key players of the game of MICC influence. When a Senator, LBJ may have been more in tune with the MICC and might have been one of the reasons he was added to the ticket – MICC representation (remember he was stepping down from the most powerful Congressional position to the least powerful spot in DC).

Hoover had never been a MICC insider. Even the CIA is a major step below the Military in this equation and in my opinion the CIA is the Military’s watchdog and frontline protector while the FBI performs the same function inside the US.

Have you or have you not read “None Dare Call It Conspiracy” Paul? If you have not then the 80 pages and couple hours it will take will change your world view. If you have, then I fail to see how you are not somewhat in tune with the CFR and NSC players .

Bundy (After World War II, during which Bundy served as an intelligence officer, in 1949 he was selected for the Council on Foreign Relations. He worked with a study team on implementation of the Marshall Plan. He was appointed as a professor of government at Harvard University, and in 1953 as its youngest dean of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, working to develop Harvard as a merit-based university. In 1961 he joined Kennedy's administration. After serving at the Ford Foundation, in 1979 he returned to academia as professor of history at New York University, and later as scholar in residence at the Carnegie Corporation)

Cravath-Swaine-Moore partners: John McCloy (brought firm lawyers to Germany to run Occupation) & Roswell Gilpatrick (#2 at DoD under McNamara)

Textron expanded into computers, aviation and defense with gusto firmly entrenching the owners of the MICC within the revolving door of Military to Industry to Congress and back around again. When one begins to see this virtual line between the “Sponsors” (those in a position to influence/create policy without approval and the power to remain unscathed by any back-lash) and the Facilitator (those on the ground creating/facilitating the plans to the perceived desired end of the Sponsor while not really knowing the purpose behind it) and the Mechanics who just do the work.

There is nothing offered that places Hoover or LBJ into this company of leaders of the world but as top level Facilitators carrying out the wishes of the Sponsor/Facilitators who run things on the ground. Bundy, Harriman, (the other 5 Wise Men), Senators/Congressmen, CEO’s and owners of Industry, and the JCS ( and other key assets) who can give orders and CYA.

There is no “source” for all this other than books that try: None Dare & The Wise Men help give a glimpse – I accumulated over 500 files and a gig of data as I prepped for a book I want to write on the History of Bankers and Lawyers – How the World is Run. During this I see over and over the taking advantage (as well as guiding and creating) of world events to their best interest.

Sorry for the long winded explanation Paul. The subject is near and dear to me. There remains a façade that most simply do not perceive. Our government, its institutions and policies are guided by the needs of the MICC and their successful future. JFK was given the opportunity to go along to get along yet that simply was not his way.

Do you honestly believe that Hoover was in a position to decide on MLK’s death?
That if he was so powerful and connected LBJ would not have stayed on in 1968 – against Nixon – when we both know that Nixon was the MICC;s golden boy. Look at his VP’s.

Paul, it will remain up to you to show a connection between Hoover and the real power in the USA/World. I don’t see it. I see a man fighting communism while ignoring the evils of everyday crime and having his department actually performing criminal activity daily in the name of “protecting the US citizen”. He was a bulldog for his masters, nothing more.

With respect, please prove me wrong
DJ

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, David will certainly provide his own answers but to help a bit, let me respond as well:

"You and Larry have both focused on calls from LBJ later on 11/22/1963 as important factors in that decision. Please be more specific regarding your sources. Does the Mary Ferrell web site also host those documents? What were the exact hours of the day you had in mind?"

....As far as the calls go there are many sources, Manchester discusses some calls from Johnson, however the most concrete official list is Johnson's own telephone call log which you can get from the LBJ library. When I started all this there were no documents on the internet so I had/have paper copies of these things. Today you can find the call log for the period of the assassination online at the library, or at least it was, I've not checked lately. In addition you can find the transcript for the calls to AF1 on Bill Kelley's web site. Beyond that, I list a good number of the calls in Chapter 15 of SWHT as well as the following two chapters which deal with Johnson, I'm sure some are footnoted to sources but not sure how many.... Of course there are problems with this, ranging from the tape/transcript mystery about the Hoover/Johnson call to the many questions about how comprehensive a record we have of the AF1 tapes. I can tell you that you can trace exactly when and how those on the plane were advised of Oswald's arrest and that matches to the AP1 wire coverage of the arrest and announcement of his name.

Yet I still think you must answer the question -- if Hoover ordered the FBI to stop looking beyond Oswald on 11/23/1963, then why did Hoover himself express doubts (as you claim) weeks later?

....personally I think Hoover came to realize the official story was being driven to no conspiracy, regardless of what evidence turned up or the doubts he shared with Johnson. In that sense I believe he was experienced enough to essentially know that a full, open investigation had been closed down and there was more to the story, a lot more. And I think that upset him as a career law enforcement professional - I don't at all like the man but that was what he was and I although he might have played ball and gone along with it, his remarks to the young man at the country club suggest to me that deep inside he knew the consequences of what would happen if the American public became aware that there had been obstruction of justice at the highest level of the government - it would indeed have brought down the Administration and possibly more than that.

That is, insofar as Hoover by 11/23/1963 mandated a "Lone Nut" theory of Oswald -- why would he contradict this in writing unless this was a trick on his part to manipulate subordinates? I still think that must be answered cogently.

.....My view is that Hoover was following orders from Johnson, he had to do so to preserve his career...however he himself was not satisfied that there had been no conspiracy and he certainly was not happy with the CIA...that dissatisfaction came out on occasion.

Nevertheless, I now with to dig more deeply into those specific 11/22/1963 and 11/23/1963 documents. My first question is -- what was the EXACT content of the Bundy phone call to AF-1 -- does anybody know with exactitude?

.....you should be able to find what is on the record by reviewing the transcript on Kelley's web site; I think Manchester also interviewed Bundy and relates his description of the conversation.

All good advice, Larry. I've always benefitted from following your advice, and expect to continue doing so.

Best regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

...I still think that Bill Simpich's State Secret (2014) absolves the CIA high-command from a JFK murder plot -- but now I cannot absolve Hoover as quickly as I expected. Simply because a mole-hunt was potentially in process in Mexico, there is no connection to the absolution of the CIA in JFK’s death? How do you make that connection? The actions Oswald was either steered toward or fabricated in the evidence were easily duplicitous. Had Vallee been Oswald, Ozzie’s FPCC infiltration and other “intel” duties would have continued. But since that did not happen, these same actions which could be seen as benign to self-incrimination at the time could easily be turned against him.

...Nevertheless, I now with to dig more deeply into those specific 11/22/1963 and 11/23/1963 documents. My first question is -- what was the EXACT content of the Bundy phone call to AF-1 -- does anybody know with exactitude?

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2012/03/off-tapes-whats-missing-from-af1-radio.html

...Finally, David, as for your theory that LBJ and Hoover were "toeing the company line" of masters above them who were pulling their strings -- I feel justified in my skepticism -- and I now ask for your sources.

...Hoover had never been a MICC insider. Even the CIA is a major step below the Military in this equation and in my opinion the CIA is the Military’s watchdog and frontline protector while the FBI performs the same function inside the US. Have you or have you not read “None Dare Call It Conspiracy” Paul? If you have not then the 80 pages and couple hours it will take will change your world view. If you have, then I fail to see how you are not somewhat in tune with the CFR and NSC players .

With respect, please prove me wrong

DJ

David, I appreciate the leads you posted. I will certainly follow them up. For now, I'll respond to these three points in your long post from today:

(1) First of all, I'm glad you brought matters back to the theme of this thread, namely, Bill Simpich's "State Secret" (2014).

Yes, I interpret Simpich's ground-breaking work as a satisfactory absolution of the CIA high-command in the murder of JFK. In brief, here's how I make that connection: (1) whoever impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City knew a tremendous amount about the Top Secret phone-tapping CIA operation in the Cuban and USSR compounds there; (2) the fact that there was a Mole-hunt at all, is proof that the CIA high-command had no clue about who these Impersonators were; (3) the intent of the Impersonators was obviously, IMHO, to link the name of Oswald with the name of KGB hit-man, Kostikov; (4) the killers of JFK wanted to blame the Communists for the JFK murder, and that's why Oswald was set-up as an FPCC Communist in New Orleans for much of 1963; (5) the Impersonation of Oswald in Mexico City was an extension of the New Orleans set-up of Oswald.

Given those premises, the conclusion is clear -- the CIA high-command could not have been part of the set-up of Oswald as a Communist making the murder of JFK would look like a Communist plot. IMHO, the likely promoters of this viewpoint would be American civilians from the extreme right-wing. Any CIA rogues involved in the JFK murder would have been subordinate to these civilian leaders, IMHO. I think this is tight logic.

I've asked Bill Simpich himself to comment on my interpretation of his work, which I first posted in the Forum back in 2014. I gather he is still thinking about a response.

(2) I appreciate your online links to the content of Bundy's call to AF-1 shortly after the JFK murder.

(3) I find it interesting that you cited Gary Allen's famous 1971 book, "None Dare Call It Conspiracy," now 44 years old. I read it with gusto when I was a young man, and my copy was dog-eared from continual references. It did change my view of the world at the time.

It is interesting, David, because that book was published by the John Birch Society.

It was a companion book to the 1962 book, "The Invisible Government" by Dan Smoot -- another John Birch Society publication. This was the book that first "exposed" the CFR (Council on Foreign Relations), claiming that they ruled the USA and gave orders to US Presidents.

For many years I believed Smoot and Allen -- but eventually I rejected their theory. No doubt there are extremely rich and powerful people in the world, and no doubt their political influence is far greater than that of most people. Yet Gary Allen and Dan Smoot wildly exaggerated their powers, to made it seem like the CFR, not the US Constitution, was really in charge.

It's cynical, ultimately, and it lacks many critical insights about American politics. This is because their orientation was the John Birch Society (an extension of McCarthyism) and may be boiled down to this statement by JBS founder, Robert Welch:

This brings us to the most important of their separate Big Lies. The first is that Communism is a movement of the downtrodden masses against their oppressors. The truth is exactly the opposite. Communism is imposed on every country, from the top down, by a conspiratorial apparatus, headed and controlled by suave and utterly ruthless criminals, who are recruited from the richest families, most highly educated intellectuals, and most skillful politicians within that country. The rest of the show, including all of the noise made and work done by the poor 'revolutionary' beatniks and dupes at the bottom, is mere pretense and deception. (Robert Welch, 1959, The Politician, p. xxxxv)

To make a long story short, David, I completely reject this political viewpoint, and I completely reject the theory that the CFR and the NSC have ever operated outside the rules of the US Constitution. Naturally, then, I reject any theory of the JFK murder that is based on this old John Birch Society ideology.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 19, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

To make a long story short, David, I completely reject this political viewpoint, and I completely reject the theory that the CFR and the NSC have ever operated outside the rules of the US Constitution. Naturally, then, I reject any theory of the JFK murder that is based on this old John Birch Society ideology.

As is your right Paul. I simply cannot agree given the amount I've read proving the opposite.

You can cherry-pick the JBS aspects or you can read what the book is really telling us. You might also read Rockefeller's Drug Wars for a taste of how the elite works around the rules created to keep everyone else in line.

Appreciate the discussion... take care

DJ

[Paul Trejo]

...Nevertheless, I now with to dig more deeply into those specific 11/22/1963 and 11/23/1963 documents. My first question is -- what was the EXACT content of the Bundy phone call to AF-1 -- does anybody know with exactitude?

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/2012/03/off-tapes-whats-missing-from-af1-radio.html

...

DJ

Thanks very much, David, for this link. It is an article from our own Bill Kelly, written on 17 March 2012, and entitled: What’s Missing from the AF1 Radio Tapes. I read it immediately and I'd like to comment on it.

Since my theory about the 3pm CST epiphany of J. Edgar Hoover about the "Lone Shooter" has turned out to be mistaken, I'm now on the hunt for the actual source of the "Lone Shooter" mandate. IMHO, the entirety of Warren Commission and FBI tampering with evidence in the JFK murder case was always -- without exception -- accomplished with the "Lone Shooter" doctrine in mind. Whether the tampering was with witnesses, photographs, ballistics, medical reports, clothing, the limo, reports from Mexico City -- everything -- the tampering was always done to forge a "Lone Shooter" theory of Lee Harvey Oswald.

So, here's my review of that link that you posted.

I was a little bit disappointed, because I didn't find many clues there. Besides that, Kelly opened with what I regard as the most persistent error of the past 50 years of JFK Research -- namely -- that the JFK Cover-up Team also "must have been" the same as the JFK Kill Team. Here is Bill Kelly's opening sentence:

------------------ Begin excerpt from Bill Kelly article ------------------------------

At first analysis, it seemed quite clear that if McGeorge Bundy, the President’s national security advisor in the Situation Room at the White House, told those aboard Air Force One that the culprit in the assassination was arrested and there was no conspiracy before the accused assassin was even charged with a crime, then this was a premature announcement that had to stem from those who had President Kennedy killed.

------------------ End excerpt from Bill Kelly article ------------------------------

Bill Kelly notes that this suspicion was first announced by Vincent Salandria, reinforced by E. Martin Schotz and others who regarded the JFK murder as a coup'd'etat.

Yet the JFK Kill Team had months to plan their attack, and months to set-up their Patsy, Lee Harvey Oswald, as an FPCC Communist in New Orleans and Mexico City. On the other hand, the JFK Cover-up Team had only a few hours to plan their strategy, namely, that Lee Harvey Oswald acted entirely alone, and "had no accomplices who are still at large," and was never a member of the Communist party, and was "never a leader" of the FPCC.

Starting with Vincent Salandria, perhaps, we encounter a persistent illusion that the "Lone Nut" theory of Oswald was planned by the JFK Killers. Yet that never tallies with the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald had been set-up for months as a stooge of the Communists. It is amazing to me today that this theory (JFK Cover-up Team = JFK Kill Team) is the single most persistent theory of JFK Research, although it contradicts itself very plainly.

As for the rest of Bill Kelly's article, which is very well-researched, we are told that William Manchester, Pierre Salinger and Theodore White all saw the transcripts of AF-1, and then, when the actual tapes were available, all said that the transcripts and the actual tapes failed to match perfectly.

The details are still obscure, but the key points I'm looking for seem to be there. Theodore White, in his book, The Making of the President 1964, wrote:

------------------ Begin quote from TH White (1964) ------------------------------

"There is a tape recording in the archives of the government...a recording of all the conversations in the air...between Air Force One in Dallas, the Cabinet plane over the Pacific, and the Joint Chiefs’ Communications Center in Washington….On the flight the party learned that there was no conspiracy, learned the identity of Oswald and his arrest..."

------------------ Begin quote from TH White (1964) ------------------------------

This is interesting, but the exact timing of the communication was not cited by Kelly or White in this statement. I need to know the exact timing. Here is the "Lone Nut" scenario in black and white -- on the date in question -- but the exact timing appears to be missing here.

What we do know, from the FBI memos we perused yesterday, is that by 3pm CST that day, that Hoover wrote to his senior staff that he just got off the phone with RFK -- and told RFK essentially the same material.

Today I grant that so far this fails to amount to an FBI mandate, but the report that it was Oswald, that he was a member of the FPCC, and that he was not a Communist party member, was already relayed to RFK before 3pm CST. That is in print today for all to see.

Next, Bill Kelly cited text from Vincent Salandria and his book, History Will Not Absolve Us (1996), as follows:

------------------ Begin quote from Vincent Salandria (1996) ------------------------------

"And yet the White House had informed President Johnson and the other occupants of Air Force One, all of them witnesses to the hail of bullets which had poured down on Dealey Plaza, that as of the afternoon of the assassination there was to be no conspiracy and that Oswald was to be the lone assassin. If White’s report were correct this would mean that federal officials in Washington were marrying the government to the cover-up of Oswald as the lone assassin virtually instantaneously. This could have occurred only if those federal authorities had had foreknowledge that the evidence would implicate Oswald and that he would have ‘no confederates.’ An innocent government could not have reacted in such a fashion internally."

------------------ End quote from Vincent Salandria (1996) ------------------------------

But of course Vincent Salandria was dead wrong. It is entirely possible that an innocent government could have reacted in such a fashion.

While Salandria was entirely correct that this report was "marrying the government to the cover-up of Oswald as the lone assassin," it should be clear today that Salandria jumped to a false conclusion, namely: (JFK Cover-up Team = JFK Kill Team).

Salandria is entitled to a mistake, of course, but I maintain that 50 years of JFK Researchers are no longer entitled to the same mistake.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit typos>

Edited May 20, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Brancato]

"But of course Vincent Salandria was dead wrong". Quite a quote Paul. I'll give you this much - you finally admitted you were dead wrong about something. I hope you are open minded enough, especially now, to consider that the rest of your theory may be wrong. It is convenient and clever to think that those who so carefully planned the assassination were not the ones who so skillfully covered up afterwords. But its a stretch of logic to think so. Its possible you are correct, but not very likely. Far more likely that those who planned it left as little to chance as possible. I think Salandria saw things clearly, especially when he (and Schotz) pointed out that we almost can't help but avert our eyes from this horrible truth.

[Paul Trejo]

"But of course Vincent Salandria was dead wrong". Quite a quote Paul. I'll give you this much - you finally admitted you were dead wrong about something. I hope you are open minded enough, especially now, to consider that the rest of your theory may be wrong. It is convenient and clever to think that those who so carefully planned the assassination were not the ones who so skillfully covered up afterwords. But its a stretch of logic to think so. Its possible you are correct, but not very likely. Far more likely that those who planned it left as little to chance as possible. I think Salandria saw things clearly, especially when he (and Schotz) pointed out that we almost can't help but avert our eyes from this horrible truth.

Well, Paul B., I am open minded enough to admit -- if necessary -- that the rest of my theory is wrong.

Yet in order to do that, I would have to see something more convincing. JFK Researchers have simply not presented a single, complete, Unified Field theory of the JFK murder to date. My own theory is still the most complete, IMHO.

I haven't proven conclusively that Salandria's political conclusions were dead wrong -- but I feel certain that they were. The CIA, CFR and NSC, as organizations, have never exceeded their Constitutional authority, IMHO -- they have all remained and still remain subordinate to the Executive branch of the US Government.

Civilians killed JFK -- not the Government.

I still maintain that Bill Simpich's "State Secret" (2014) stands as a solid witness that the CIA high-command was clueless about the JFK Kill Team.

Salandria was being a little bit paranoid, IMHO, and calmer reflection should have told him that a "Lone Nut" Oswald has nothing whatsoever to do with an "FPCC Communist" Oswald.

It's not very difficult to follow my logic here. The JFK Cover-up Team has always been separated 180 degrees from the JFK Kill Team. They were enemies.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited May 20, 2015 by Paul Trejo