Jump to content
The Education Forum
Pat Speer

JFK's Head Wound: a Timeline of the Earliest Statements

Recommended Posts

Right, Ray. And "directly behind" the Newmans at the moment of the fatal head shot is....where again? Certainly NOT the famous "picket fence" on the Knoll.

Bronson%2BSlide.jpg

More.....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/11/bill-and-gayle-newman.html

During a 2003 interview, Bill Newman goes into even more detail about his observations (at the 6:20 mark of the video below), when he says that his opinion about the direction from which the head shot came was derived more from the "visual impact that it had on me more so than the noise".

Newman saw the right side of JFK's head explode, and he immediately interpreted that VISUAL experience (incorrectly) as a bullet that struck the President in the right-front (temple) area of his head. And Newman explicitly says that very thing in this interview -- http://www.c-span.org/video/?287932-101/kennedy-assassination-bill-gayle-newman-part-2

And directly behind Bill Newman is not the TSBD.

Another good video . Confirms what their earlier views.

In it, he says that the shots came more from the fence area behind him more to his right than from the TSBD to his left.

You say that "he immediately interpreted that VISUAL experience (incorrectly)…" only in your opinion, David, only in your opinion!.

I can see why the Warren Commission didn't want them to be interviewed.

Zapruder also said he thought the shots came from over his right shoulder.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[bill Newman] says that the shots came more from the fence area behind him more to his right than from the TSBD to his left.

Huh?

Bill Newman said no such thing in that 2003 video. In fact, he specifically says that he refuses to "define" the exact location of the gunshots. He said: "So I say 'behind' and I leave it at that."

He said he can't say whether the shots he heard came more to the left or more to the right of his location:

"If I thought it came from the sixth floor, I'd most definitely tell you so. If I thought it came from the picket fence, I'd certainly tell you so. The reality of it is--I don't know." -- William E. Newman; July 10, 2003

Audio clip with Bill Newman -- https://app.box.com/s/koji4pr1e7242ajo3hvd

I can see why the Warren Commission didn't want them [the Newmans] to be interviewed.

Yeah, right Ray. They avoided the Newmans, but had no problem publishing the testimony of Sam Holland, Mark Lane, Jean Hill, Jack Dougherty, Victoria Adams, Clint Hill, Marguerite Oswald, and several other "conspiracy" type witnesses. But they were just scared to death of Bill and Gayle Newman, huh?

You're funny.

Zapruder also said he thought the shots came from over his right shoulder.

That's not what he told Eddie Barker in Dealey Plaza in 1967:

"I'm not a ballistic expert, but I believe if there were shots that were coming by my right ear, I would hear a different sound. I heard shots coming from--I wouldn't know which direction to say--but it was proven from the Texas Book Depository. And they all sounded alike; there was no different sound at all." -- Abe Zapruder; June 1967 (emphasis added by DVP)

SOURCE: http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/05/cbs-news-inquiry-warren-report.html

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My replies in red

[bill Newman] says that the shots came more from the fence area behind him more to his right than from the TSBD to his left.

Huh?

Bill Newman said no such thing in that 2003 video. In fact, he specifically says that he refuses to "define" the exact location of the gunshots. He said: "So I say 'behind' and I leave it at that."

He said he can't say whether the shots he heard came more to the left or more to the right of his location:

"If I thought it came from the sixth floor, I'd most definitely tell you so. If I thought it came from the picket fence, I'd certainly tell you so. The reality of it is--I don't know." -- William E. Newman; July 10, 2003

Audio clip with Bill Newman -- https://app.box.com/s/koji4pr1e7242ajo3hvd

9 min 50

Newman

“but if If you want to define it a little closer, that would be a little closer to the picket fence rather as opposed to the School Depository”

I can see why the Warren Commission didn't want them [the Newmans] to be interviewed.

Yeah, right Ray. They avoided the Newmans, but had no problem publishing the testimony of Sam Holland and Jean Hill and several other "conspiracy" type witnesses. But they were just scared to death of Bill and Gayle Newman, huh?

They were the closest civilians (other than those in the cars) to the assassination. Newman said that the reason he thought he wasn't called was because he wouldn't confirm the shots came from the TSBD

You're funny.

Thank you

Zapruder also said he thought the shots came from over his right shoulder.

That's not what he told Eddie Barker in Dealey Plaza in 1967:

"I'm not a ballistic expert, but I believe if there were shots that were coming by my right ear, I would hear a different sound. I heard shots coming from--I wouldn't know which direction to say--but it was proven from the Texas Book Depository. And they all sounded alike; there was no different sound at all." -- Abe Zapruder; June 1967 (emphasis added by DVP)

SOURCE: http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2011/05/cbs-news-inquiry-warren-report.ht

I'm not interested in what he told Eddie Barker, this is from his Warren Commission testimony:

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came?
Mr. ZAPRUDER - No, I also thought it came from back of me.

Edited by Ray Mitcham

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

9 min 50

Newman...

“...but if you want [me] to define it a little closer, that would be a little closer to the picket fence rather as opposed to the School Depository.”

Yes, you are absolutely right, Ray. Bill Newman did utter the above words in his 2003 interview at the Sixth Floor Museum. I stand corrected.

However, even in that excerpt at 9:50 of the video, Newman is saying that the shots came from what he calls the "in-between area", very near where Abraham Zapruder was standing -- between the Depository and the picket fence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not interested in what he told Eddie Barker, this is from his Warren Commission testimony:

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - No, I also thought it came from back of me.

And just how on Earth does Zapruder's "from back of me" remark help out the conspiracy theorists who want to place a gunman behind a fence on the Grassy Knoll, which is a fence that was certainly NOT in "back" of Abe Zapruder's pedestal at the time of the head shot. That fence was to the RIGHT of Zapruder....and actually, to be technical, the area of that fence where most of the conspiracy buffs like to put a gunman was also a little bit in FRONT of Zapruder's position as well (i.e., a little SOUTH of the Zapruder pedestal) -- as the photograph below indicates:

Aftermath-In-Dealey-Plaza-After-JFK-Was-

But I suppose all the conspiracy theorists can argue that the picket fence area was, indeed, IN BACK of Zapruder's position when at least ONE of the shots was fired, because Zapruder's body would have been turned more toward the Elm & Houston corner at that time.

So you can argue that "angle" difference if you want, but it's still not going to garner you a victory in this particular argument, and that's because of the following portion of Mr. Zapruder's Warren Commission testimony that Ray decided to leave out of his last post:

Mr. LIEBELER - All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - From the direction behind you?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes, actually--I couldn't say what I thought at the moment, where they came from--after the impact of the tragedy was really what I saw and I started and I said--yelling, "They've killed him"--I assumed that they came from there, because as the police started running back of me, it looked like it came from the back of me.

Mr. LIEBELER - But you didn't form any opinion at that time as to what direction the shots did come from actually?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - No.

So it's pretty clear to me that Zapruder's WC testimony is in perfect harmony with what he told CBS-TV in 1967. In other words--he just couldn't tell exactly where the shots were coming from.

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not interested in what he told Eddie Barker, this is from his Warren Commission testimony:

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - No, I also thought it came from back of me.

And just how on Earth does Zapruder's "from back of me" remark help out the conspiracy theorists who want to place a gunman behind a fence on the Grassy Knoll, which is a fence that was certainly NOT in "back" of Abe Zapruder's pedestal at the time of the head shot. That fence was to the RIGHT of Zapruder....and actually, to be technical, the area of that fence where most of the conspiracy buffs like to put a gunman was also a little bit in FRONT of Zapruder's position as well (i.e., a little SOUTH of the Zapruder pedestal) -- as the photograph below indicates:

Aftermath-In-Dealey-Plaza-After-JFK-Was-

But I suppose all the conspiracy theorists can argue that the picket fence area was, indeed, IN BACK of Zapruder's position when at least ONE of the shots was fired, because Zapruder's body would have been turned more toward the Elm & Houston corner at that time.

So you can argue that "angle" difference if you want, but it's still not going to garner you a victory in this particular argument, and that's because of the following portion of Mr. Zapruder's Warren Commission testimony that Ray decided to leave out of his last post:

Mr. LIEBELER - All right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into Elm Street, you saw the President hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, yes.

Mr. LIEBELER - From the direction behind you?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Yes, actually--I couldn't say what I thought at the moment, where they came from--after the impact of the tragedy was really what I saw and I started and I said--yelling, "They've killed him"--I assumed that they came from there, because as the police started running back of me, it looked like it came from the back of me.

Mr. LIEBELER - But you didn't form any opinion at that time as to what direction the shots did come from actually?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - No.

So it's pretty clear to me that Zapruder's WC testimony is in perfect harmony with what he told CBS-TV in 1967. In other words--he just couldn't tell exactly where the shots were coming from.

The subject is not about the picket fence. It is about where the head wound was, Newman said in his earliest interview that "“ As the car got directly in front of us, uh, a gunshot, apparently from behind us hit the President in the side of the temple.

Now if you can show how a gunshot to the side of the temple can equate to a bullet in the back of the head, I'd be very interested in your explanation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now if you can show how a gunshot to the side of the temple can equate to a bullet in the back of the head, I'd be very interested in your explanation.

So, Ray, you think Bill Newman had the superhuman ability to actually SEE the bullet in flight, eh? Otherwise, how could he possibly know precisely where the bullet ENTERED President Kennedy's head?

As any child could figure out, Newman saw the big hole and all the blood on the RIGHT SIDE ("temple" area) of JFK's head after Oswald's bullet had gone through the President's cranium....and Newman's immediate impression, due to the location of all that blood, was that the bullet hit JFK in the side of the temple.

Newman says over and over again in his various interviews in 1963 and 2003 that he saw the "SIDE" of the President's head come off. That sure doesn't sound like he's describing the ENTRY point for a bullet, does it? He's describing where the EXIT wound was located, of course.

And Newman repeated that comment again during his November 2013 interview at the Sixth Floor Museum ----> "The side of his head blew off." -- William Newman; 11/9/13

There is also a similar statement made by Gayle Newman in her official affidavit, which she prepared on the day of the assassination itself ---> "I saw blood all over the side of his head." -- Gayle Newman; 11/22/63

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, I don't think he had superhuman abilities. Neither have you, although it seems that you think you do.

You appear to know more about what he saw than he did.

In his first tv interview, Newman said that he saw the bullet hit the President in the side of the temple. Subsequent interviews do not compare with earliest interviews as you know.

He was the closest to the assassination and saw what he saw, and no matter how you try to twist it.

Perhaps if you think that what he saw, was the exit of the bullet rather than the entrance, you could tell us where the bullet that supposedly did what you say, ended up.

Edited by Ray Mitcham

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, I don't think he had superhuman abilities. Neither have you, although it seems that you think you do. You appear to know more about what he [bill Newman] saw than he did.

You think it takes superhuman ability to assess and reasonably evaluate the statements made by William Newman concerning his observations relating to JFK's head wound?

A second-grader could figure this out. I wonder why so many conspiracy theorists can't do it?

It's probably because those conspiracy believers just simply don't WANT to properly evaluate statements made by witnesses like Bill and Gayle Newman. The CTers are too enamoured with their long-held belief that William E. Newman is a terrific "conspiracy" type witness. But in reality, he's no such thing.

Newman even marked the location of where he thought the shots were coming from on a map during his appearance at the 1986 mock Oswald trial in England. And just look at where he put the gunman--in a location that's not even close to the famous "picket fence" area:

William-Newman-Map-1986-Mock-Trial.png

In fact, Newman's marked location on that map is much closer to the Book Depository Building than it is to the fence atop the Grassy Knoll.

Perhaps if you think that what he saw was the exit of the bullet rather than the entrance, you could tell us where the bullet that supposedly did what you say ended up.

I think you already know the answer to that question, Ray. But, I'll bite anyway....

The largest portion of Oswald's Carcano bullet, after going through JFK's head, was never recovered by anybody. But two fairly large chunks of that head-shot bullet (CE567 and CE569) were recovered in the front seat area of JFK's limousine, with those two fragments of bullet being stopped by the car's windshield and chrome molding (which were cracked and dented, respectively).

More of my thoughts about CE567/569 HERE and HERE.

Now, to reciprocate, maybe Ray Mitcham can answer a similar question for me (and for everyone else in the world too) --- Since you obviously think that what Bill Newman saw on the SIDE of President Kennedy's head was the ENTRY location of a bullet, would you please tell me what happened to that bullet that entered the right "temple" of John F. Kennedy? Where did that bullet end up? And why didn't it cause some kind of wound to the LEFT side of JFK's head?

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nice photo, David, but very naughty. Pity it was taken from an angle which compresses the sketch of Dealey Plaza. It looks a bit different when you see it like this

DealeyPlaza1_zps4f3e9cd8.gif

The grey curved line equates to the one drawn on by Newman and his position is circled lower on the drawing. It shows that he thought the shot came from nowhere near the TSBD.

Regarding where do i think the bullet went that entered from the front,-easy….It stayed inside JFK's skull as it exploded.

Edited by Ray Mitcham

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And Newman's 1986 map also indicates he didn't think the shots came from anywhere near the famous "Grassy Knoll/Picket Fence" area of Dealey Plaza either. (That was kind of my main point, in case you missed it.)

But, then too, we already knew that fact when Newman clearly stated in his 11/22/63 affidavit that the shots came from "directly behind me", which does not equate to the famous "Grassy Knoll" area where the fence is.

Regarding where do I think the bullet went that entered from the front? Easy -- It stayed inside JFK's skull as it exploded.

OIC. That must be why only TWO very small metal fragments were plucked from inside President Kennedy's head by the autopsy surgeons at Bethesda, huh?

And I wonder why there is very little in the way of bullet (metal) fragments visible in the X-rays taken of JFK's head? A faked X-ray, Ray? ....

JFK-XRay.jpg

And it's also good to know that you, Ray Mitcham, are a person who actually DOES think that the great-big wound in JFK's head serves as the ENTRY point for a bullet. Most people can easily figure out the ENTRIES from the EXITS when it comes to assessing bullet wounds, with the largest wound almost always indicating the BLOW-OUT (or EXIT) point for the missile.

But, as with everything in this JFK case, the conspiracists have a habit of turning night into day---and exits into entries.

A humorous example of this type of topsy-turvy mindset exhibited by some conspiracy theorists came up on one of the other JFK forums, when a certain unnamed kook insisted that Governor Connally's chest wound was actually a wound of ENTRY, while Connally's upper-back wound was a wound of exit.

Such is the upside-down world of JFK conspiracists.

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My comments in red

And Newman's 1986 map also indicates he didn't think the shots came from anywhere near the famous "Grassy Knoll/Picket Fence" area of Dealey Plaza either. (That was kind of my main point, in case you missed it.)

As I said earlier the argument has never been about the picket fence, You are the only one bringing it up!

But, then too, we already knew that fact when Newman clearly stated in his 11/22/63 affidavit that the shots came from "directly behind me", which does not equate to the famous "Grassy Knoll" area where the fence is.

Agreed! At last, we seem to be getting somewhere, "Directly behind me"!!!!

Regarding where do I think the bullet went that entered from the front? Easy -- It stayed inside JFK's skull as it exploded.

OIC. That must be why only TWO very small metal fragments were plucked from inside President Kennedy's head by the autopsy surgeons at Bethesda, huh?

And I wonder why there is very little in the way of bullet (metal) fragments visible in the X-rays taken of JFK's head? A faked X-ray, Ray? ....

JFK-XRay.jpg

Yep, we definitely are getting there.

And it's also good to know that you, Ray Mitcham, are a person who actually DOES think that the great-big wound in JFK's head serves as the ENTRY point for a bullet. Most people can easily figure out the ENTRIES from the EXITS when it comes to assessing bullet wounds, with the largest wound almost always indicating the BLOW-OUT (or EXIT) point for the missile.

And it's good to know that you, David Von Pain continue to believe the unbelievable.

But, as with everything in this JFK case, the conspiracists have a habit of turning night into day---and exits into entries.

No., not the conspiracists. That's what surgeons at the autopsy did.

A humorous example of this type of topsy-turvy mindset exhibited by some conspiracy theorists came up on one of the other JFK forums, when a certain unnamed kook insisted that Governor Connally's chest wound was actually a wound of ENTRY, while Connally's upper-back wound was a wound of exit.

Such is the upside-down world of JFK conspiracists.

A typical stupid Von Pein comment.

I notice you said nothing about your sneaky angled photo of the dealey Plaza sketch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wasn't sneaky at all regarding the "angled" Newman map photo. I know it's taken from an angle that somewhat skews everything. But I used it to merely illustrate what even a SKEWED version of that map clearly indicates--i.e., Bill Newman thought the shots were coming from a location where virtually NOBODY in the "JFK World" thinks shots were REALLY coming from.

So, tell me, Ray -- Do you REALLY think shots were coming from an area BETWEEN the Depository and the fence/"Badge Man" area on the Knoll?

If you answer Yes to that question, you'll be the first person on the planet (AFAIK) who thinks shots came from that "in-between" area in Dealey Plaza.

BTW, Ray, your version of Newman's map is almost identical to the "skewed" version I posted. Very little difference at all. Your "unskewed" version still has Newman's mark at the FAR EAST EDGE of the pergola/shelter.

Looks like another "Mountain From A Molehill" argument being made by a conspiracy fan. (What a surprise.)

Besides, how in the heck can I know for certain you've got that gray line in the exact correct spot to equate to Newman's 1986 marking of the sketch/map? Maybe I should call in Dale Myers to check it out. An expert on photogrammetry couldn't hurt here, right? :)

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My response in bold.

Now if you can show how a gunshot to the side of the temple can equate to a bullet in the back of the head, I'd be very interested in your explanation.

So, Ray, you think Bill Newman had the superhuman ability to actually SEE the bullet in flight, eh? Otherwise, how could he possibly know precisely where the bullet ENTERED President Kennedy's head?

As any child could figure out, Newman saw the big hole and all the blood on the RIGHT SIDE ("temple" area) of JFK's head after Oswald's bullet had gone through the President's cranium....and Newman's immediate impression, due to the location of all that blood, was that the bullet hit JFK in the side of the temple.

Newman says over and over again in his various interviews in 1963 and 2003 that he saw the "SIDE" of the President's head come off. That sure doesn't sound like he's describing the ENTRY point for a bullet, does it? He's describing where the EXIT wound was located, of course.

WRONG, David. When someone sees one wound the automatic conclusion is that it is an entrance. You read somewhere that entrances are tiny and exits are BIG. You need to bypass Bugliosi and his ilk and read some books on wound ballistics. When you do you'll find that entrance wounds are often quite large and that an entrance wound for a full-metal jacketed bullet that breaks up on the skull is likely to be massive.

And Newman repeated that comment again during his November 2013 interview at the Sixth Floor Museum ----> "The side of his head blew off." -- William Newman; 11/9/13

There is also a similar statement made by Gayle Newman in her official affidavit, which she prepared on the day of the assassination itself ---> "I saw blood all over the side of his head." -- Gayle Newman; 11/22/63

While you are correct to point out that Newman is not a great witness for those claiming the fatal shot was fired from the picket fence, you should at least acknowledge that he was and remains a terrible witness for the Oswald did it all by his lonesome scenario. He thought the fatal shot impacted at the side of Kennedy's head, even though he was looking at the back. Of course, he could be wrong. But if one goes down that road one has to explain why nobody--including people like Hargis, and Brehm--who had a clear view of the back of the head but a somewhat obstructed view of the side of the head, also thought the bullet struck the side of the head.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My response in bold.

And Newman's 1986 map also indicates he didn't think the shots came from anywhere near the famous "Grassy Knoll/Picket Fence" area of Dealey Plaza either. (That was kind of my main point, in case you missed it.)

But, then too, we already knew that fact when Newman clearly stated in his 11/22/63 affidavit that the shots came from "directly behind me", which does not equate to the famous "Grassy Knoll" area where the fence is.

Regarding where do I think the bullet went that entered from the front? Easy -- It stayed inside JFK's skull as it exploded.

OIC. That must be why only TWO very small metal fragments were plucked from inside President Kennedy's head by the autopsy surgeons at Bethesda, huh?

And I wonder why there is very little in the way of bullet (metal) fragments visible in the X-rays taken of JFK's head? A faked X-ray, Ray? ....

JFK-XRay.jpg

And it's also good to know that you, Ray Mitcham, are a person who actually DOES think that the great-big wound in JFK's head serves as the ENTRY point for a bullet. Most people can easily figure out the ENTRIES from the EXITS when it comes to assessing bullet wounds, with the largest wound almost always indicating the BLOW-OUT (or EXIT) point for the missile.

DO THE READING, DAVID. Entrances can be large. Exits can be large. The entrance is the smaller argument only applies when the bullet trajectories are tracked. The autopsy doctors not only failed to track the proposed bullet trajectory through Kennedy's brain, they placed the entrance in a position so low that subsequent panels of doctors concluded NO SUCH TRAJECTORY EXISTED. So, get off your high horse, will ya? You would like the readers to believe you've got all the facts on your side, and science on your side, when your whole Oswald did it all by his lonesome argument rests on your unfounded BELIEF that either 1) the autopsy doctors were incredibly inept and that the bullet actually entered 4 inches higher than they claimed in a location nobody noticed, or 2) the autopsy doctors were correct and all the subsequent panels claiming the bullet trajectory they'd proposed makes no sense were inept. In either case, you've gotta go against experts.

But, as with everything in this JFK case, the conspiracists have a habit of turning night into day---and exits into entries.

A humorous example of this type of topsy-turvy mindset exhibited by some conspiracy theorists came up on one of the other JFK forums, when a certain unnamed kook insisted that Governor Connally's chest wound was actually a wound of ENTRY, while Connally's upper-back wound was a wound of exit.

Such is the upside-down world of JFK conspiracists.

And a lot of LNers believe global warming is the biggest hoax since evolution. SO???

Edited by Pat Speer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...