Why I believe the SBT is nothing but BS

[Micah Mileto]

On 5/31/2014 at 2:02 AM, James R Gordon said:

Pat,

I believe we can be a little more accurate as to the position of the back wound. I believe we can get a closer position of the wound when positioning the wound with reference to identifiable Scapula points

C where I believe Boswell has his hand to balance the body is the Clavicle. The Clavicle is at the level of T1

A is the edge of the Scapula spine on the medial border. This point is at the level of T3

B is the inferior angle of the Scapula. This point is at the level of T6

For identifying the position of the wound we really do not need B.

What we can say is that the wound is below point C – or the wound is below T1.

And

The wound is above is above A – or the wound is above T3.

The wound is somewhere between T1 and T2. That means it is below the apex of the lung and if the SBT were credible that to get to the throat the bullet would need to pierce and pass through the right lung.

Wow, never seen that photo in that amount of detail before. It also looks like maybe the lower mark corresponds to some kind of teeny tiny hole.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Micah Mileto

[Pamela Brown]

On 5/26/2014 at 5:11 PM, Gil Jesus said:

You can't have a transiting bullet without a bullet track through the body.

This is my take on "the SBT" scenarios...

 

[David Von Pein]

[Micah Mileto]

Found the version of the back wound photograph with the head hole only extending above the level of the ears and the occipital area appearing lighter, in a copy of Mantik's Twenty Conclusions After Nine Visits:

 

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n2/pittsburgh.pdf

https://www.sott.net/article/182452-The-JFK-Autopsy-Materials-Twenty-Conclusions-after-Nine-Visits

Aren't all copies of the autopsy photos floating around the internet based on the same one or two bootleg sources published in books? How come some versions are clearer or less cropped than others?

Edited January 26, 2017 by Micah Mileto

[Pamela Brown]

On 1/6/2017 at 9:42 PM, David Von Pein said:

Hate to tell you this, David, but there is no 'SBT'...just different scenarios...

[David Josephs]

Whether in a recreation, or with the original manipulation of evidence by Ford....

Nothing DVP or anyone within the government's investigative bodies have an answer for why it was necessary to offer "alternative facts" about the entry point as it related to the jacket and shirt.

DVP - why doesn't the shot thru the back exit the mannequin's throat as opposed to his pectoral muscle?

 

DVP - why does Ford insist on moving the entry to a point where there is no medical evidence offered to corroborate that change?

 

And finally for this post, notice the angle at which the rifle is pointing at those critical "SBT" frames.  

 

In each case a shot thru JFK hits the seat-back in front of him which again is the reason no bullet was found lodged in the limo, there was no Silly Bullet, and ce399 only comes into being as SS Chief Rowley hands Elmer Todd a bullet at 8:50pm, 100 minutes after Frazier receives ce399 at the FBI lab...  Until that point, not a single person handling that bullet corroborates, (IOW "authenticates") the bullet in evidence as the bullet they brought forth...

 

So I've now shown you how the Silly Bullet Theory was a sham and the knee-jerk reaction to the acknowledgement of Tague and the "shot that missed"... via the work of Purvis, Murr, Davidson and myself it is now common knowledge that the 5+00 WCD298, ce875, ce585 shot was removed after the May 1964 surveys were completed....

Let's see what you present:

Based on the official evidence in the John F. Kennedy murder case, all of the following things are true:

1.) President John F. Kennedy and Texas Governor John B. Connally were shot by rifle bullets in Dallas' Dealey Plaza on Friday, November 22, 1963.

That's one right... 

2.) Lee Harvey Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle (Serial Number C2766) was located inside a building which overlooked the assassination site (the Texas School Book Depository) when JFK and JBC were being wounded by gunfire.

This statement is unproven with the evidence available.  In fact, the evidence related to that rifle and the FBI investigation proves there were 2 other Klein's orders for rifles not offered as evidence.  Where are these 2 other orders from Crescent to Kleins and why are they not on the original order with the Feb 1963 delivery?  The FBI learns about orders and rifle serial #'s from June 18, 1962 and March 27, 1963 shipments to Klein's followed by a report that C2766, as offered by Feldsott, was sold to Kleins on June 18, 1962.  Below this is a list from Century Arms for a shipment of 41" FC rifles, all written without the leading letter... yet there is 2766

   

 

and finally, the Secret Service confirms that C-2766 as ordered from Kleins is a 36" 1891 TS "Troop Special" not a 41" FC.
 

3.) A nearly-whole bullet (Warren Commission Exhibit #399) was found inside the hospital where JFK and JBC were taken after the shooting. And CE399 was found in a location within the hospital where President Kennedy was never located prior to the bullet being found by Darrell Tomlinson. (Nor was JFK's stretcher ever in the area of the hospital where Tomlinson discovered the bullet.)

Addressed already - ce399 only comes into existence when Rowley gives it to Todd...  Prove otherwise.

4.) Bullet CE399 was positively fired from Lee Harvey Oswald's rifle.

You still haven't proven it's Oswald's rifle yet...  and I prove that the rifle taken out of the TSBD by Day is not ce139 - it has none of the same markings at all...

5.) Bullet CE399, based on the above points in total, HAD to have been inside Governor Connally's body on 11/22/63.

Based on What?  ce399 did not have a single bit of human debris on it, every Dr who knew of JC's injuries and the lead left in his body says ce399 could not have caused the damage,,,  DVP, 1+1+1 does not equal 7 no matter how hard you try and make it work.

6.) A man who looked like Lee Harvey Oswald was seen firing a rifle at the President's limousine from a southeast corner window on the 6th Floor of the Book Depository Building. No other gunmen were seen firing any weapons in Dealey Plaza on November 22nd.

Really?  Your star witness disagrees with you... and does not put a scoped rifle in that window... nor does he see this person fire a shot.  You got someone who actually describes someone looking like Oswald at 5'8" and 135 lbs wearing a dark buttoned up shirt & dark pants in that window shooting?

7.) No bullets (or large bullet fragments) were found in the upper back or neck of John Kennedy's body. And no significant damage was found inside these areas of JFK's body either.

No bullets might be in evidence but they were surely found and mentioned in the available evidence.  On the left, DURING the autopsy aknowledgement of a 2nd lodged bullet is mentioned along with the Tolson's assurance that BOTH BULLETS would be procured.  O'Connor was at the autopsy.  A bullet was removed from the torso muscles on the right side, right about where that back bullet would have come to rest...  Your stated conclusions are without merit of substance.

 

8.) No bullets (or large bullet fragments) were found inside the body of Governor Connally after the shooting. The only bullet, anywhere, that can possibly be connected with Connally's wounds is Bullet CE399.

Once again, simply not true.  In fact the fragments left in JC add up to more lead missing from ce399.  You arguing the medical evidence is amusing Dave..  you and Trump's "alternative facts" are right at home with the Nutters out there.

9.) Given the point in time when both JFK and JBC were first hit by rifle fire (based on the Abraham Zapruder Film), and given the known location of Governor Connally's back (entrance) wound, and also taking into account the individual points made above -- Bullet CE399 had no choice but to have gone through the body of President Kennedy prior to entering the back of John B. Connally.

Addressed by the WCR and shown to be incorrect.  The claim is the bullet's course was not affected by passing thru JFK.. for the SBT to work JFK needs to be leaning over and tying his shoes at the time of the shot... unless you can prove otherwise.

My favorite still remains the "Bonus Quotes" from 1) Bugliosi, 2 )Myers and 3) Specter...  to prove your point...  

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by David Josephs

[David Von Pein]

I could spend all day debunking all the conspiracy myths presented above by Mr. David Josephs. But right now, I'll just deal with the following three items....

"Why doesn't the shot thru the back [in the 2004 documentary "JFK: Beyond The Magic Bullet"] exit the mannequin's throat as opposed to his pectoral muscle?"

Well, for one thing, the bullet entered the JFK mock torso too low. So, naturally, it's going to exit "too low" as well, and it did.

But nobody is ever going to be able to duplicate the SBT shot with 100% pinpoint accuracy. We'd need to dig up both John Kennedy and John Connally in order to do that. But I think the Discovery Channel people in Australia did a pretty good job of simulating the general path of Bullet CE399 in their 2004 documentary program. All CTers disagree (naturally). But there's nothing new about that. CTers probably wouldn't be satisfied if JFK and Connally WERE dug up and used for a re-creation of the SBT.

More:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/jfk-beyond-magic-bullet.html

--------------------------

"Why does [Gerald] Ford insist on moving the entry to a point where there is no medical evidence offered to corroborate that change?"

Jean Davison came up with a very logical and reasonable explanation for why Gerald Ford performed his on-paper "move":

"I doubt that Ford, for one, knew the exact location of the back/neck wound. I think he recognized that the sentence as written couldn't possibly be right since there's nothing "in the back slightly above the shoulders." By definition, above the shoulders is "neck." Ford tried to correct it and made matters worse. One thing I feel certain of is that there was no rational motive for anyone to "raise" the back wound. Moving it to the neck doesn't support the SBT, no matter what suspicion may tell you. An entry in the neck would destroy the SBT trajectory. .... Imo, it often seems that CTs don't allow for human error or Murphy's law or Hanlon's razor ("Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity [or incompetence].")" -- Jean Davison; December 5, 2014

Also see:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/gerald-ford-and-sbt.html

--------------------------

"The fragments left in [John Connally] add up to more lead missing from ce399."

The above statement made by David Josephs is just simply not correct. Here's why:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/connally-bullet-fragments.html

 

Edited January 26, 2017 by David Von Pein

[David Josephs]

The fact of the matter is we are talking about CE399 as having performed some amazing feat when the evidence offered shows it does not exist until Rowley hands it to Todd... Please notice how DVP ignores this most critical of proofs.  Also recognize how DVP stays away from the 7:30 versus 8:50pm time conflict.  Since he cannot authenticate CE399 as ever being in Dallas, he talks about what the Dr's said about the wounds and ASSUMES CE399 authentic...

Believing the evidence on face value is nice but doesn't cut it when convicting a man of murder...  Evidence needs authentication... without it the "evidence" is not longer "real" or "material" let alone admissible as such.   Prove the assumptions you make BEFORE you move on to conclusions based off them Dave... otherwise all you do is sound good while what you present is completely worthless as a basis for a conclusion.

 

 

 

Mr. SPECTER - Does that bullet appear to you to have any of its metal flaked off? 
Dr. SHAW - I have been told that the one point on the nose of this bullet that is deformed was cut off for purposes of examination. With that information, I would have to say that this bullet has lost literally none of its substance. 

Is Dr Shaw suggesting that Connally was struck by 2 different bullets?

Dr. SHAW - All right. As far as the wounds of the chest are concerned, I feel that this bullet could have inflicted those wounds. But the examination of the wrist both by X-ray and at the time of surgery showed some fragments of metal that make it difficult to believe that the same missile could have caused these two wounds. There seems to be more than three grains of metal missing as far as the I mean in the wrist. 

Mr. SPECTER - What is your opinion as to whether bullet 399 could have inflicted all of the wounds on the Governor, then, without respect at this point to the wound of the President's neck? 
Dr. SHAW - I feel that there would be some difficulty in explaining all of the wounds as being inflicted by bullet Exhibit 399 without causing more in the way of loss of substance to the bullet or deformation of the bullet. 
(Discussion off the record.) 

 

Edited March 8, 2017 by David Josephs

[David Von Pein]

David Josephs said:

The fact of the matter is we are talking about CE399 as having performed some amazing feat when the evidence offered shows it does not exist until Rowley hands it to Todd.

Why on Earth are you claiming the bullet "does not exist until Rowley hands it to Todd"?

The stretcher bullet has a very definite, clear, and distinct chain (with respect to each man in the "chain" being able to confirm that he received a single whole bullet from the previous man in the chain), beginning with Darrell Tomlinson finding the bullet at Parkland Hospital around 1:30 PM CST on 11/22/63.

Tomlinson gives the bullet to O.P. Wright, with Wright then giving it to Secret Service agent Richard Johnsen, who carries it from Dallas to Washington on Air Force One.

SA Johnsen then writes this memo after getting back to the White House on the night of November 22, confirming that he received the bullet he carried to Washington from O.P. Wright at Parkland Hospital.

Johnsen must have then stapled that memo to this envelope, which is the envelope that Johnsen put the bullet into before giving it to Secret Service chief James Rowley. (Note the staple hole in the memo [but not a staple itself], and the metal staples which still seem to be attached to the envelope.)

Per Elmer Todd's writing on the envelope, Rowley then passes the envelope (containing the stretcher bullet) on to Todd of the FBI, with Todd then taking the envelope containing the bullet to the FBI laboratory in Washington and giving it to Robert A. Frazier. Todd and Frazier then both scratch their initials into the nose of the bullet. The documentation for this last part of the bullet's journey and the etching of Todd's and Frazier's initials into the bullet is Elmer Todd's FD-302 report in Commission Document No. 7.

Throughout this process of handing off the bullet from one man to the next on November 22nd, there is no indication that more than just one single bullet is being handled. None of these men (Tomlinson, Wright, Johnsen, Rowley, Todd, and Frazier) ever said, as far as I know, that they had handled two different whole bullets in connection with the JFK case. Which means, if we're to believe some of the conspiracy theorists, that one or more of those men told some lies after the assassination.

I guess you, David Josephs, think the bullet that Tomlinson found on a stretcher at Parkland was not CE399, but instead was a different bullet entirely. Right? Well, if you want to believe that, fine. You're not alone if you believe that, of course. Nearly all Internet conspiracists think there's something fishy about CE399. But since I've been totally convinced of Lee Harvey Oswald's lone guilt for quite a number of years now (based on a whole bunch of evidence, and not just CE399), I have chosen not to travel down the "Bullet Was Planted Or Substituted" road. Call me naive if you so desire. But I choose not to go down the rocky road of evidence tampering.

Related quote....

"Conspiracy theorists will, of course, argue that the "chain" shown above is still extremely weak and that it doesn't constitute a "chain" of custody at all--particularly since the Johnsen typewritten note is not signed with his handwritten signature or initials and is not still physically attached to the envelope that contains Todd's remarks about receiving the bullet from Rowley.

So, yes, maybe this issue about the chain of possession of the bullet will always provide fertile ground for continued debate and argument. It seems quite obvious that it will. No issue in this case seems to ever go unchallenged by conspiracists, even the ones that have been thoroughly debunked by lone-assassin proponents over the years.

But if a person digs into the records deep enough, that person can and will find documentation to support the idea, which is totally foreign to most conspiracy theorists, that Bullet CE399 was the bullet that made its way from Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas to the FBI laboratory in Washington on November 22, 1963." -- DVP; Pages 419-420 of "Beyond Reasonable Doubt: The Warren Report And Lee Harvey Oswald's Guilt And Motive 50 Years On"
 

David Josephs said:

Please notice...how DVP stays away from the 7:30 versus 8:50pm time conflict.

Okay, there's a time conflict. But where do conspiracists want to go with this conflict?

Are CTers saying that the "real" (non-CE399) stretcher bullet was being passed from one person to another at one of those two times (either 7:30 PM or 8:50 PM on 11/22/63, Washington time)? And that the bullet from Lee Oswald's rifle which became "CE399" was transferred from one person to another at the other of the two times in question?

But if the "CE399" bullet was actually a bullet involved in either a 7:30 PM transfer or an 8:50 PM transfer, and if CE399 wasn't really the bullet that Richard Johnsen carried to Washington on Air Force One and was merely used as a "substitute" bullet to replace the "real" bullet that Darrell Tomlinson found on a stretcher (as many conspiracists believe was the case), then how did the FBI (or the Secret Service) manage to get that bullet to Washington by either of those two times?

Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano C2766 rifle, which we know is the rifle that fired Bullet CE399 since it is the only gun in the world capable of firing that bullet, was still in Dallas at 7:30 EST and 8:50 EST. The gun wasn't taken out of Dallas until about 11:45 PM CST on November 22. So did the Government just happen to have a bullet from Lee Oswald's rifle in their possession several hours before the gun ever departed Dallas, Texas?

Or do conspiracy believers think that two other (non-CE399) whole bullets, which were both somehow involved with the wounding of President Kennedy and Governor Connally, were being handled by various people in Washington, D.C., at 7:30 and 8:50? Which would mean, of course, that somebody would have had to transport those two additional whole bullets from Dallas to Washington on November 22. And then, sometime later, the evil Government deep-sixed both of those non-CE399 bullets and replaced them with only Commission Exhibit No. 399 in order to frame Lee Harvey Oswald as the lone assassin. It's an utterly ridiculous scenario.

But I guess some (or maybe most) CTers must, indeed, believe such unsupportable nonsense about multiple non-CE399 bullets being handled by authorities in Washington on 11/22/63. Otherwise, what's the point of even bringing up the 7:30 vs. 8:50 time discrepancy?

So why don't conspiracy theorists just admit that the "7:30/8:50" time discrepancy was merely an innocent clerical error or mix-up of some kind? Because that is quite obviously what it was.

Related discussion from 2010....

JIM DiEUGENIO SAID:

[Robert] Frazier composed a document entitled "History of Evidence". On the top line he wrote that he received the bullet from [Elmer] Todd at 7:30 PM. And Frazier wrote another document. It was called "Laboratory Work Sheet". This also certifies that he got the bullet from Todd at 7:30. It describes it as "Bullet from Stretcher". .... Todd wrote down the time as 8:50 PM. Question for the Prosecutor: How could Todd have given CE 399 to Frazier before he got it from Rowley?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

A big problem here with DiEugenio's theory about the stretcher bullet is this: The Mannlicher-Carcano rifle which fired Bullet CE399 was not yet in the possession of the FBI in Washington as of EITHER ONE of the two times noted in the official reports (7:30 PM EST or 8:50 PM EST).

[...]

So, does Jim DiEugenio think the FBI in Washington had possession of Oswald's C2766 Carcano rifle at some time PRIOR to 11:45 PM CST on Friday? Because if they didn't have possession of that gun at an earlier time, then how could Robert Frazier have taken possession (and marked with his initials) a "fake" or "substitute" bullet that was fired BY THE FBI in that exact rifle PRIOR to 11:45 PM on Friday?

Or, as an alternative, I suppose DiEugenio could always say that the FBI's Robert Frazier was [lying], with Frazier only pretending to receive (and mark) CE399 at a time that was much earlier than when the FBI gained possession of Oswald's rifle.

But if Frazier and the FBI as a whole were liars about the entire CE399 affair -- then why didn't they merely fudge the paperwork to eliminate the time discrepancy regarding the stretcher bullet?

Silly plotters indeed. But Jim DiEugenio is even sillier to believe the cloak-and-dagger nonsense he says he believes concerning the FBI and Warren Commission Exhibit No. 399.

Also See:
http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/The Secret Service & CE399
 

Edited January 27, 2017 by David Von Pein

[Ray Mitcham]

"Not only had no bullet been found on Connally’s stretcher, but the bullet produced in evidence was not in fact the one discovered at the hospital. The Warren Commission’s bullet, Commission Exhibit 399, was not shown to Tomlinson during his testimony. Another hospital employee, O.P. Wright, who also saw the bullet on the stretcher, was not called to testify. Three years later, a researcher showed a photograph of the CE 399 bullet to Wright, who claimed that the bullet he had seen on the stretcher was of an entirely different type."

 

"Six Seconds in Dallas reported on an interview with O.P. Wright in November 1966. Before any photos were shown or he was asked for any description of #399, Wright said: “That bullet had a pointed tip.”

“Pointed tip?” Thompson asked.

“Yeah, I’ll show you. It was like this one here,” he said, reaching into his desk and pulling out the .30 caliber bullet pictured in Six Seconds.”

As Thompson described it in 1967, “I then showed him photographs of CE’s 399, 572 (the two ballistics comparison rounds from Oswald’s rifle) (sic), and 606 (revolver bullets) (sic), and he rejected all of these as resembling the bullet Tomlinson found on the stretcher. Half an hour later in the presence of two witnesses, he once again rejected the picture of 399 as resembling the bullet found on the stretcher.”
 

 

The above comments seem to make subsequent discussions of who handed the bullet to whom redundant, when it wasn't the same bullet.

[Micah Mileto]

20 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

"Not only had no bullet been found on Connally’s stretcher, but the bullet produced in evidence was not in fact the one discovered at the hospital. The Warren Commission’s bullet, Commission Exhibit 399, was not shown to Tomlinson during his testimony. Another hospital employee, O.P. Wright, who also saw the bullet on the stretcher, was not called to testify. Three years later, a researcher showed a photograph of the CE 399 bullet to Wright, who claimed that the bullet he had seen on the stretcher was of an entirely different type."

 

"Six Seconds in Dallas reported on an interview with O.P. Wright in November 1966. Before any photos were shown or he was asked for any description of #399, Wright said: “That bullet had a pointed tip.”

“Pointed tip?” Thompson asked.

“Yeah, I’ll show you. It was like this one here,” he said, reaching into his desk and pulling out the .30 caliber bullet pictured in Six Seconds.”

As Thompson described it in 1967, “I then showed him photographs of CE’s 399, 572 (the two ballistics comparison rounds from Oswald’s rifle) (sic), and 606 (revolver bullets) (sic), and he rejected all of these as resembling the bullet Tomlinson found on the stretcher. Half an hour later in the presence of two witnesses, he once again rejected the picture of 399 as resembling the bullet found on the stretcher.”
 

 

The above comments seem to make subsequent discussions of who handed the bullet to whom redundant, when it wasn't the same bullet.

Was the pointed stretcher bullet also pristine with apparently no blood on it?

[Ray Mitcham]

49 minutes ago, Micah Mileto said:

Was the pointed stretcher bullet also pristine with apparently no blood on it?

Doesn't really matter, does it. It wasn't CE133.

[Micah Mileto]

Just now, Ray Mitcham said:

Doesn't really matter, does it. It wasn't CE399.

I know. If the stretcher bullet was pristine, then whoever fabricating evidence could have thought that planting a pristine 6.5 Carcano bullet would be appropriate.

[John Butler]

Does any of this really matter?  What's going to be the out come of the LGT vs. CTers arguments?  I'll start my really bleak forecast by asking "Do you know what is taught to Middle School and High School students"? 

What is taught is the verdict of the Warren Commission.  This has the backing of Government, Media, and Historians.

Most of us are old guys.  What's going to be the outcome in 50 years.  Will the assassination conspiracy books disappear from the library shelves?    Will the search engines on the Internet point to only LGT theories?  Will Amazon and other booksellers price assassination conspiracy books so high that no one will buy them?  

Can you see any signs of that today?

I favor a conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy.  To me the Conspiracy Camp has the best arguments.  But, in all reality they don't have any power.  The other side does through Government, Media, and College History professors.

[Ray Mitcham]

1 minute ago, John Butler said:

Does any of this really matter?  What's going to be the out come of the LGT vs. CTers arguments?  I'll start my really bleak forecast by asking "Do you know what is taught to Middle School and High School students"? 

What is taught is the verdict of the Warren Commission.  This has the backing of Government, Media, and Historians.

Most of us are old guys.  What's going to be the outcome in 50 years.  Will the assassination conspiracy books disappear from the library shelves?    Will the search engines on the Internet point to only LGT theories?  Will Amazon and other booksellers price assassination conspiracy books so high that no one will buy them?  

Can you see any signs of that today?

I favor a conspiracy to assassinate President Kennedy.  To me the Conspiracy Camp has the best arguments.  But, in all reality they don't have any power.  The other side does through Government, Media, and College History professors.

I'm afraid, I dislike murderers, individual or conspirators,  getting away scot free, so, despite the fact that time and the powers that be are against me, I  will keep up trying to find enough evidence to see the truth come out.