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Dave

Lame Nut Argument #1:

A goodly number of witnesses all mistakenly saw the limo come to a stop, and a goodly number of that group mistakenly saw the limo swerve to the left.

Mass hallucination and mass hypnosis theories belong in a comic book, Dave, not a serious discussion about the JFK assassination.

But what you don't seem to understand, Bob, is that a large percentage of "limo stop" witnesses are actually "limo slowed" witnesses... Are you telling us that all those people hallucinated its not stopping????

False outrage, false outrage, false outrage...

There must be ten threads on this forum on the limo stop...where people like myself and Tink Thompson got goated into going through the limo stop witnesses one by one, and PROVING that they support that the limo slowed but did not stop...precisely what is shown in the films...

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Pat,

This is the only post I remember pertaining to the limo "stop". I do not want to post the information in the link, as it is quite lengthy, and hopefully, anyone who is interested will look. It is well worth the read.

Duke Lane goes through the 59 witnesses Palamara wrote about in his "Delay on Elm Street" part of the MIDP book:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5708&p=50316

Kathy

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The JFK CTers are a hilarious lot

Be that as it may, David, I question your standing to laugh.

After all, on this very Forum you have stipulated to the following facts:

1) The bullet holes in JFK's clothes are 4 inches below the bottom of the collars.

2) The Dealey Plaza photos show no appreciable "bunch up" of JFK's jacket.

That you have the power to deny the significance of these stipulations doesn't change the fact you've debunked the SBT with your own observations.

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Pat,

This is the only post I remember pertaining to the limo "stop". I do not want to post the information in the link, as it is quite lengthy, and hopefully, anyone who is interested will look. It is well worth the read.

Duke Lane goes through the 59 witnesses Palamara wrote about in his "Delay on Elm Street" part of the MIDP book:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5708&p=50316

Kathy

Kathy,

Thanks for posting that link.

Just thinking out loud here: Wouldn't many people seeing a car, any car, abruptly slow down during a shooting from eleven miles-per-hour to a very brief, near-crawl later say that that car had come to a "complete stop"?

I think memories are fascinatingly unreliable, particularly those involving spacial relationships and relative motions in a fast-developing, complicated "scene."

Especially when that "scene" imparts a significant degree of emotional trauma on the viewer.

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Pat,

This is the only post I remember pertaining to the limo "stop". I do not want to post the information in the link, as it is quite lengthy, and hopefully, anyone who is interested will look. It is well worth the read.

Duke Lane goes through the 59 witnesses Palamara wrote about in his "Delay on Elm Street" part of the MIDP book:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5708&p=50316

Kathy

A number of Z-film alteration threads started by James Fetzer turned into limo stop witness threads. I recall going through the witnesses one by one in order to prove the silliness of the claim, a la Duke Lane. I remember as well thinking that this was something new but then realized this was something Anthony Marsh had been doing since the 90's.

The "limo stop" is a red herring. The "limo slowing down", however, can be used to suggest SS incompetence or even complicity, should one wish to do so.

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Pat,

This is the only post I remember pertaining to the limo "stop". I do not want to post the information in the link, as it is quite lengthy, and hopefully, anyone who is interested will look. It is well worth the read.

Duke Lane goes through the 59 witnesses Palamara wrote about in his "Delay on Elm Street" part of the MIDP book:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5708&p=50316

Kathy

Kathy,

Thanks for posting that link.

Just thinking out loud here: Wouldn't many people seeing a car, any car, abruptly slow down during a shooting from eleven miles-per-hour to a very brief, near-crawl later say that that car had come to a "complete stop"?

I think memories are fascinatingly unreliable, particularly those involving spacial relationships and relative motions in a fast-developing, complicated "scene."

Especially when that "scene" imparts a significant degree of emotional trauma on the viewer.

--Tommy :sun

People saw the limo's brake lights flare, and the motorcycles officers stop, and quite obviously (at least to me) came to conclude the limo stopped, even though it never quite came to a complete stop.

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Pat,

This is the only post I remember pertaining to the limo "stop". I do not want to post the information in the link, as it is quite lengthy, and hopefully, anyone who is interested will look. It is well worth the read.

Duke Lane goes through the 59 witnesses Palamara wrote about in his "Delay on Elm Street" part of the MIDP book:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5708&p=50316

Kathy

Kathy,

Thanks for posting that link.

Just thinking out loud here: Wouldn't many people seeing a car, any car, abruptly slow down during a shooting from eleven miles-per-hour to a very brief, near-crawl later say that that car had come to a "complete stop"?

I think memories are fascinatingly unreliable, particularly those involving spacial relationships and relative motions in a fast-developing, complicated "scene."

Especially when that "scene" imparts a significant degree of emotional trauma on the viewer.

--Tommy :sun

Pat,

This is the only post I remember pertaining to the limo "stop". I do not want to post the information in the link, as it is quite lengthy, and hopefully, anyone who is interested will look. It is well worth the read.

Duke Lane goes through the 59 witnesses Palamara wrote about in his "Delay on Elm Street" part of the MIDP book:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=5708&p=50316

Kathy

Kathy,

Thanks for posting that link.

Just thinking out loud here: Wouldn't many people seeing a car, any car, abruptly slow down during a shooting from eleven miles-per-hour to a very brief, near-crawl later say that that car had come to a "complete stop"?

I think memories are fascinatingly unreliable, particularly those involving spacial relationships and relative motions in a fast-developing, complicated "scene."

Especially when that "scene" imparts a significant degree of emotional trauma on the viewer.

--Tommy :sun

Thomas,

Jackpot.

More exact would be13.69 mph to 3.74 mph.

chris

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On this very Forum you have stipulated to the following [fact]:

The Dealey Plaza photos show no appreciable "bunch up" of JFK's jacket.

Regardless of what I may have said to you in our previous forum conversations regarding photos taken PRIOR to the turn onto Elm Street, this photo below is the KEY picture with respect to JFK's "bunched up" jacket. And it's a picture that was snapped just seconds before Lee Oswald's second shot went through both President Kennedy and Governor Connally. And no reasonable person with even one functioning eyeball could possibly even begin to deny that there is most certainly some "bunching" of the jacket going on in this Robert Croft photograph:

15c.%2BCroft%2BPhoto%2BShowing%2BJFK%27s

Edited by David Von Pein

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On this very Forum you have stipulated to the following [fact]:

The Dealey Plaza photos show no appreciable "bunch up" of JFK's jacket.

Regardless of what I may have said to you in our previous forum conversations regarding photos taken PRIOR to the turn onto Elm Street, this photo below is the KEY picture with respect to JFK's "bunched up" jacket.

So when the limo turned onto Elm St. JFK's shirt and jacket spontaneously jumped several inches up his back?

This is why you don't have a standing to laugh at anyone who acknowledges the fact of conspiracy, David.

Your claim is idiotic on its face.

And it's a picture that was snapped just seconds before Lee Oswald's second shot went through both President Kennedy and Governor Connally. And no reasonable person with even one functioning eyeball could possibly even begin to deny that there is most certainly some "bunching" of the jacket going on in this Robert Croft photograph:

And anyone with a functioning eyeball can clearly see a normal amount JFK's shirt collar exposed -- which means the jacket collar was in a normal

position at the base of JFK's neck.

You now want to claim that JFK's clothing was hiked up above the base of his neck -- without pushing up on the jacket collar!

Demonstrate that for us, David. How does 6+ inches of clothing get pushed up above the base of the neck without pushing up on the jacket collar?

Obviously impossible...

15c.%2BCroft%2BPhoto%2BShowing%2BJFK%27s

Edited by Cliff Varnell

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If you can't tell that Mr. Kennedy's jacket is hiked up a bit in the Croft photo, pity on you, Cliff. Because the "bunching" or "hiked up" nature of JFK's jacket in that particular picture couldn't be any more obvious.

Cliff, you'd probably be better off jumping on the "Photo is fake" bandwagon regarding the Croft picture, rather than sticking to this odd stance:

"...the jacket collar was in a normal position at the base of JFK's neck [in the Croft photo]."

-- C. Varnell; 8/30/14

Related "Bunching" Note.....

Just a few minutes (maybe less) before JFK entered Dealey Plaza, a man named Andre Leche took a home movie of the President's car on Main Street (his film wasn't discovered until November 2013), and President Kennedy's "bunched up" jacket is clearly visible in his film too (and in George Jefferies' film as well).....

Still-Frame-From-Andre-Leche-Film-Of-Dal

Kennedy-Photos.blogspot.com/The Leche Film (Video & Photos)

Edited by David Von Pein

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If you can't tell that Mr. Kennedy's jacket is hiked up a bit in the Croft photo, pity on you, Cliff.

Hiked up "a bit" is correct! The hole in the shirt is 4" below the bottom of the collar, the hole in the jacket is 4 & 1/8" below the collar.

The jacket was hiked up 1/8 of an inch.

You are correct again. "A bit" is not 3 inches of shirt + 3 inches of jacket.

Because the "bunching" or "hiked up" nature of JFK's jacket in that particular picture couldn't be any more obvious.

Hiked up 1/8 of an inch destroys the SBT.

Thank you all over again, David.

Cliff, you'd probably be better off jumping on the "Photo is fake" bandwagon regarding the Croft picture, rather than sticking to this odd stance:

"...the jacket collar was in a normal position at the base of JFK's neck [in the Croft photo]."

-- C. Varnell; 8/30/14

Yes, we can see the fact of this by the visible band of shirt collar above the base of JFK's neck.

You are capable of seeing the shirt collar, David?

That shirt collar couldn't be visible unless the jacket collar was in a normal position.

Just a few minutes (maybe less) before JFK entered Dealey Plaza, a man named Andre Leche took a home movie of the President's car on Main Street (his film wasn't discovered until November 2013), and President Kennedy's "bunched up" jacket is clearly visible in his film too (and in George Jefferies' film as well).....

The shirt collar is mostly occluded in this photo, David!

In Croft the shirt collar band is clearly visible!

The jacket dropped in Dealey Plaza!

Your observations destroy the SBT, David!

Still-Frame-From-Andre-Leche-Film-Of-Dal

Kennedy-Photos.blogspot.com/The Leche Film (Video & Photos)

Edited by Cliff Varnell

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That shirt collar couldn't be visible unless the jacket collar was in a normal position.

Not true at all. The jacket collar could be "hiked up" a little bit and still have some of JFK's white shirt visible. Why you think such a thing is a complete impossibility only shows how desperate you are to trash the totally reasonable (and feasible) Single-Bullet Conclusion.

Plus: Why is it not possible in your world to have the collar portion of a person's jacket hiked up just SLIGHTLY and (at the same time) also have a different (lower) portion of that same person's jacket hiked up (or "bunched up") more than just SLIGHTLY?

In the world of Cliff "Everything In The Whole JFK Case Revolves Around Kennedy's Clothing" Varnell, the above scenario of having President Kennedy's COLLAR only raised (or "hiked") a little bit but a lower portion of his suit coat hiked up a bit MORE than "just slightly" is something that couldn't happen in a million years -- even though several photos taken of JFK in the Dallas motorcade PROVE beyond all doubt that that very thing I just described regarding JFK's jacket WAS occurring when Mr. Kennedy was riding in his limousine through the streets of Dallas, Texas, on November 22, 1963.

Your observations destroy the SBT, David!

You couldn't be any sillier if you tried, Clifford.

Are you finished with your derailing of this thread yet, Cliff? Or can you talk about anything except that jacket and collar?

Edited by David Von Pein

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