Evidence for the location of limo at moment first rifle shot is heard

[Brad Milch]

J.C. White told the Warren Commission a noisy train was traveling between he & J.W. Foster that prevented him from viewing and hearing the assassination while both officers were stationed on top of the TUP. The entire testimony can be found in Volume 6 of Hearings (Testimony), page 253.

Officer White's testimony was taken in Dallas on 9 April, 1964 by Joseph A Ball. Here's a portion of that testimony:

Mr. BALL. First time you saw the President’s car it was going underneath?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do after that?

Mr. WHILE. As soon as the train passed I went over and on the northwestside of the Depository Building. On the northwest side of the book store up there with the rest of the ofseers and after about 30 minutes they told me to go out and work traffic at Main and Houston, and I stood out there and worked traffic.

Mr. BALL. All right, now, you heard no sound of no rifle fire or anything?

Mr. WHITE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Freight train was going through at the time?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Making noise? .

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir; noisy train.

Mr. BALL. Mr. White, Mr. Foster was on the east side of the overpass?

Mr. WHITE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. This deposition will be written up and submitted to you for your signature if you wish to sign it, or you can waive your signature. Which do you wish to do?

PS: Mark Lane failed to ask any of the railroad employees he interviewed in his film 'Rush To Judgment' about White's testimony about the noisy train crossing the TUP during the shooting.

Edited January 4, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Andric Perez]

In these paragraphs from Hudson's testimony to the WC, the head shot is the second shot he heard, not the first:

"He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.
Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/hudson.htm

Edited January 3, 2015 by Andric Perez

[Robert Mady]

Andric, good point.

There is also compelling and corroborating testimony from a significant number of witnesses that claimed first shot heard caused debris to fly from the limo.

What I have come to realize is that at the first rifle shot heard people recognized that KENNEDY 'slumped' to his left (Z-313) at Z-325 the second rifle shot rang out and MRS KENNEDY released her hold on the President to attempt to escape the gunfire and the President as a result fell to his left. Most observers interpreted the first shot heard to cause the President to 'slump' or duck to his left the second rifle shot heard to be the head shot. From any distance they could not determine which shot actually caused the President's head wound. But the two rifle shots they are referring to are depicted in Zapruder film ~Z-313 and ~Z-325.

Also remember testimonies were taken months following the event and memories change specially when influenced by a steady stream of propaganda also some people do not want to be different so they will bend their stories to appear normal.

[Andric Perez]

Andric, good point.

There is also compelling and corroborating testimony from a significant number of witnesses that claimed first shot heard caused debris to fly from the limo.

What I have come to realize is that at the first rifle shot heard people recognized that KENNEDY 'slumped' to his left (Z-313) at Z-325 the second rifle shot rang out and MRS KENNEDY released her hold on the President to attempt to escape the gunfire and the President as a result fell to his left. Most observers interpreted the first shot heard to cause the President to 'slump' or duck to his left the second rifle shot heard to be the head shot. From any distance they could not determine which shot actually caused the President's head wound. But the two rifle shots they are referring to are depicted in Zapruder film ~Z-313 and ~Z-325.

Also remember testimonies were taken months following the event and memories change specially when influenced by a steady stream of propaganda also some people do not want to be different so they will bend their stories to appear normal.

changing testimony cannot explain why on Nov. 22, 1963, the same day of the assassination, many witnesses said they heard the first shot prior to z-313. On Nov. 22 there was still no bandwagon to jump into.

James Chaney (motorcycle officer): "and when the second shot struck him in the face then we knew someone was shooting at the President."

Bobby Hargis (motorcycle officer): "About halfway down between Houston and the underpass I heard the first shot. It sounded like a real loud firecracker. When I heard the sound, the first thing I thought about was a gunshot. I looked around and about then Governor Connally turned around and looked at the President with a real surprised look on his face…The President bent over to hear what the Governor had to say.

Douglas Jackson (motorcycle officer): "About that time I heard what I thought was a car back fire and I looked around and then to the President’s car in time for the next explosion and saw Mr. Connally jerk back to his right and it seemed that he look right at me. I could see a shocked expression on his face and I thought 'Someone is shooting at them.' I began stopping my motor and looking straight ahead first at the Railroad overpass and saw only one Policeman standing on the track directly over the street. I looked then back to my right and behind me then looked back toward Mr. Kennedy and saw him hit in the head"

Sam Kinney (Secret Service): " At this time, the second shot was fired and I observed hair flying from the right side of his head"

James Underwood (reporter): "“As we made the turn here at the intersection of Elm and Houston I heard first a loud report. It sounded to me like a giant firecracker. Then in quick succession two more."

Glenn Bennett (SS Agent): "A second shoot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the boss's head."

George Hickey ("SS Agent): "As 100-X made the turn and proceeded a short distance, I heard what seemed to me that a firecracker exploded to the right and rear. I stood partially up and turned to the rear to see if I could observe anything. Nothing was observed and I turned around and looked at the President’s car. The President was slumped to the left in the car. I heard what appeared to be two shots and it seemed as if the right side of his head was hit and his hair flew forward."

Malcolm Couch (camera“Just as the President’s car turned the corner, I heard a loud shot that sounded like at first a backfire. And then I heard another one. And then

finally a third shot."

S. M. Holland: "the President’s car was coming down Elm Street and when they got just about to the Arcade I heard what I thought for the moment was a fire cracker and he slumped over"

James Altgens: ""There was a burst of noise - the second one I heard - and pieces of flesh appeared to fly from President Kennedy's car."

Abraham Zapruder: "11-22-63 interview on WFAA, at approximately 2:10 PM) “as I was shooting, as the President was coming down from Houston Street making his turn, it was about a half-way down there, I heard a shot, and he slumped to the side, like this. Then I heard another shot or two, I couldn't say it was one or two, and I saw his head practically open up, all blood and everything, and I kept on shooting."

William Newman: "But the President’s car was some fifty feet in front of us still yet in front of us coming toward us when we heard the first shot and the President. I

don't know who was hit first but the President jumped up in his seat, and I thought it scared him, I thought it was a firecracker, cause he looked, you know, fear. And then as the car got directly in front of us well a gunshot apparently from behind us hit the President in the side of the temple.”

Frances Gayle Newman: "(11-22-63 second interview on WFAA, at approximately 1:17 PM) “We were standing next to the curb so the children could see the President. And the car was just up apiece from us and this shot fired out, and I thought it was a firecracker, and the President kind of raised up in his seat. And I thought, you know, he was kind of going along with a gag or something. And then all of a sudden the next one popped, and Governor Connally grabbed his stomach and kind of laid over to the side. And then another one—it was just awful fast. And President Kennedy reached up (with both hands she reaches for her right temple) and grabbed--it looked like he grabbed--his ear and blood just started gushing out."

Charles Brehm: "The first time he slumped and the second one really blasted him."

John Chism: "And just as he got just about in front of me, he turned and waved to the crowd on this side of the street, the right side; at this point I heard what

sounded like one shot"

Marvin Faye Chism: "The President was standing and waving and smiling at the people when the shot happened."

Edited January 4, 2015 by Andric Perez

[Robert Mady]

Andric, I don't have the energy to answer individual listed witnesses.

But I will say if you really want to know the truth go back and read my threads, almost every witness you posted has been analyzed.

There is ALWAYS some evidence to disprove conclusions, this is why there is no satisfactory consensus of what happened in DP.

The problem with some of the witnesses you presented

BREHM - why is he still seen applauding as the limo passes him and his son until at least Z-299 if BREHM had heard gunshots and realized KENNEDY was wounded, it is absurd.

BREHM also claimed the limo moved only 10-12 feet during the three rifle shots, what does this mean?

HARGIS, CHANEY, JACKSON, ALTGENS claimed to only hear 2 shots, what does this mean? Which 2 shots did they hear?

You have assumed the witnesses saw the President wounded at Z-189 or Z-220 or Z-230, the evidence dictates that no one understood the President was wounded until Z-313 -> including JACKIE!

You also assumed the witnesses heard a rifle shot before Z-313, there is little evidence of this.

You are simply believing what the WC implanted in our brains and in our zeitgeist in 1963. Good luck with that, it is not possible to solve the assassination until you understand how to resolve the conflicts within testimony and comprehend what was being claimed.

If you doubt this, then you also must claim the SSA stood down and that no one in DP reacted to the sound of gunfire until after hearing the third rifle shot at Z-313.

You must also assume all of the actions claimed by SSA assigned to protect the VP took place but for SOME REASON none of them are visible in A6, long after 2 shots had been heard, not one action, explain this?

The motorcade came to a stop after the first rifle shot was heard, why were all the vehicles in the motorcade still moving until after Z-313?

Edited January 4, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Andric Perez]

You have assumed the witnesses saw the President wounded at Z-189 or Z-220 or Z-230, the evidence dictates that no one understood the President was wounded until Z-313 -> including JACKIE!

You also assumed the witnesses heard a rifle shot before Z-313, there is little evidence of this.

The movement in Zapruder's camera was so large around frame 190 that it was even greater than that of z-313. When we couple this fact with JFK's clutching of the throat before the fatal shot, it is no surprise that all those witnesses heard a shot before z-313. Please explain:

I would also like to add that your theory that people tend to try to sound "normal" after a while is on shaky grounds. During her Warren Comission testimony Jean Hill claimed to have heard up to 6 shots AFTER the head shot. There's nothing "normal" about that, compared to the typical 3-shot or 2-shot testimony of others: https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/8/8d/Photo_hsca_ex_176.jpg

Mary Moorman also stuck with her not-normal testimony even 50 years after the assassination: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread713461/pg1

Edited January 5, 2015 by Andric Perez

[Robert Mady]

Andric

The Zapruder film was altered. You don't have to believe me go listen to Doug Horne "Finally hearing the TRUTH about the JFK cover-up. " who worked for the ARRB and has determined this for a fact.

Let me give it a wild ass guess, the limo is passing and the President of the United States is in the vehicle, all of a sudden shots ring out, your friend is tugging on your leg telling you to get down and your hearing shots.

Do you believe that every person is capable of recognizing a rifle shot from echoes?

HILL also claimed she thought the SSA were returning fire.

Just divide the shots by two, six rifle shots become 3

You must be capable of explaining why MOORMAN and HILL both claimed the first shot they heard came at Z-313, no matter how many shots they heard the first one was the fatal head shot and others followed.

Try to understand what the witnesses claimed, the details get confusing if they are not put into the proper context.

Now answer my question; MOORMAN took the Polaroid at the moment of the first shot, MOORMAN claims this and so did HILL, how is this possible?

Edited January 5, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Andric Perez]

Andric

The Zapruder film was altered. You don't have to believe me go listen to Doug Horne "Finally hearing the TRUTH about the JFK cover-up. " who worked for the ARRB and has determined this for a fact.

Let me give it a wild ass guess, the limo is passing and the President of the United States is in the vehicle, all of a sudden shots ring out, your friend is tugging on your leg telling you to get down and your hearing shots.

Do you believe that every person is capable of recognizing a rifle shot from echoes?

HILL also claimed she thought the SSA were returning fire.

Just divide the shots by two, six rifle shots become 3

You must be capable of explaining why MOORMAN and HILL both claimed the first shot they heard came at Z-313, no matter how many shots they heard the first one was the fatal head shot and others followed.

Try to understand what the witnesses claimed, the details get confusing if they are not put into the proper context.

Now answer my question; MOORMAN took the Polaroid at the moment of the first shot, MOORMAN claims this and so did HILL, how is this possible?

The big problem with your argument is that we are asked to believe Zapruder, his secretary, and the many, many others were

1) incapable of hearing 6 shots/echoes, but also that they

2) were wrong about hearing shots before z-313.

By your division-by-two methodology, then we would have to assume that all these witnesses heard 1 or 2 shots (two shots divided by 2 or three shots divided by 2).

Your last post also did not address why Hill and Moorman did not try to be "normal". You theorized that people tend to behave that way.

Finally, you falsely stated that Clint Hill said the first shot he heard occurred at z-313. In his WC testimony Hill said "the second noise that I heard had removed a portion of the President's head." And lets not forget that your theory that people try to go "normal" a few months after the fact has been disproved. Hill and Moorman always continued to stick with their not-normal testimony. Therefore you would be on shaky grounds to tell us that Clint Hill simply tried to match what most other witnesses were saying.

And one more question about Hill: Do you admit that your shots-divided-by-two theory posits that Hill only heard one shot? (2 divided by 1).?

How do you explain that? At one point you said that only people "at the upper end of Elm St." (Willis and his family, for instance) heard a pre-313 "firecracker". But Zapruder was not at the "upper end of Elm St.", yet he heard a shot before z-313.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Andric Perez

[Robert Mady]

Really, what made you believe that most witnesses heard shots before Z-313?

Look at Altgens 6, no really look at Altgens 6.

Do you see anyone reacting to the sound of gunfire? Two shots had supposedly been fired.

Is three SSA randomly looking towards the rear evidence of rifle shots?

Or motorcycle police looking at KENNEDY's odd behavior proof?

CONNALLYs are another topic.

The SSA assigned to the VP all reacted at the sound of the first rifle shot, why can you not see any reactions after supposedly two shots in A6? One of the agents got out of the VP follow-up car, but in A6 the motorcade was still moving...

Which witness looks alarmed or distracted?

Do you understand that there is significant testimony claiming that bystanders reacted immediately at the sound of the first rifle shot?

Why can't you find one bystander that seems to have been effected by two rifle shots?

Why do you assume anyone heard the first shot at Z-189 or were aware that KENNEDY had been wounded, JACKIE wasn't aware of this, how could a bystander determine KENNEDY had been wounded?

BREHM as well as other bystanders continued to applaud KENNEDY until Z-313, don't you find this strange if they had heard shots and could recognize KENNEDY had been wounded?

What witnesses described was the first rifle shot heard at Z-313 and seeing KENNEDY 'slumping' to his left as a result

Then a second shot was heard at Z-325, in which caused JACKIE to get out of the limo and KENNEDY fell to his left as a result, from afar there is no way to have determined that the second rifle shot heard did not also hit KENNEDY. They did not have the knowledge we have today analyzing the z-film, they could only hear shots and see reactions they attributed to the sound of a shot.

Witnesses did not perceive KENNEDY had been injured until Z-313. Not bystanders, not SSA not JACKIE. Look at the evidence and stop believing the myths.

You still have not address my question, this is the last time I am going to trade posts with you unless you answer this question.

MOORMAN took the Polaroid at the moment of the first shot, MOORMAN claimed this and HILL claimed this, how is this possible?

This fact that the first shot heard occurred at Z-313 is corroborated by SUMMERS and HUDSON, how is this possible?

Not any of these witnesses recognized KENNEDY had been wounded prior to Z-313, how is this possible?

You and I can see that KENNEDY had already been wounded as depicted in Altgens #6, but the witnesses in DP did not comprehend this, it is that simple. Combined with the first shots they heard coming at Z-313 why would anyone have suspected KENNEDY had been wounded prior to Z-313?

Edited January 6, 2015 by Robert Mady

[Andric Perez]

Really, what made you believe that most witnesses heard shots before Z-313?

Look at Altgens 6, no really look at Altgens 6.

Do you see anyone reacting to the sound of gunfire? Two shots had supposedly been fired.

Is three SSA randomly looking towards the rear evidence of rifle shots?

Or motorcycle police looking at KENNEDY's odd behavior proof?

CONNALLYs are another topic.

The SSA assigned to the VP all reacted at the sound of the first rifle shot, why can you not see any reactions after supposedly two shots in A6? One of the agents got out of the VP follow-up car, but in A6 the motorcade was still moving...

Which witness looks alarmed or distracted?

Do you understand that there is significant testimony claiming that bystanders reacted immediately at the sound of the first rifle shot?

Why can't you find one bystander that seems to have been effected by two rifle shots?

Why do you assume anyone heard the first shot at Z-189 or were aware that KENNEDY had been wounded, JACKIE wasn't aware of this, how could a bystander determine KENNEDY had been wounded?

BREHM as well as other bystanders continued to applaud KENNEDY until Z-313, don't you find this strange if they had heard shots and could recognize KENNEDY had been wounded?

What witnesses described was the first rifle shot heard at Z-313 and seeing KENNEDY 'slumping' to his left as a result

Then a second shot was heard at Z-325, in which caused JACKIE to get out of the limo and KENNEDY fell to his left as a result, from afar there is no way to have determined that the second rifle shot heard did not also hit KENNEDY. They did not have the knowledge we have today analyzing the z-film, they could only hear shots and see reactions they attributed to the sound of a shot.

Witnesses did not perceive KENNEDY had been injured until Z-313. Not bystanders, not SSA not JACKIE. Look at the evidence and stop believing the myths.

You still have not address my question, this is the last time I am going to trade posts with you unless you answer this question.

MOORMAN took the Polaroid at the moment of the first shot, MOORMAN claimed this and HILL claimed this, how is this possible?

This fact that the first shot heard occurred at Z-313 is corroborated by SUMMERS and HUDSON, how is this possible?

Not any of these witnesses recognized KENNEDY had been wounded prior to Z-313, how is this possible?

You and I can see that KENNEDY had already been wounded as depicted in Altgens #6, but the witnesses in DP did not comprehend this, it is that simple. Combined with the first shots they heard coming at Z-313 why would anyone have suspected KENNEDY had been wounded prior to Z-313?

One of your most frequent arguments is that witnesses didn't "comprehend" that JFK had been wounded prior to z-313. I don't see how this is relevant. The wound at z-313 was easy to comprehend because JFK's head was torn to pieces. This was not the case with the non-fatal wounds to JFK and Connally. Besides, You and I both believe there were shots after the head shots, yet we do not "comprehend" that these shots resulted in injuries. So I don't really understand how injury-comprehension is relevant. It is the sound of shots that we're discussing, not injury recognition.

As regards your frustration that I don't answer questions about Moorman and Hill, please remember that you refused to address testimony of a gazillion witnesses I quoted earlier. on the grounds that you have little time for it.

You have also not responded to the evidence against your theory that witnesses tend to try to sound "normal" after a few months.

You did not respond to my question about Clint Hill.

My questions you haven't answered are far more than your questions that I haven't answered.

I don't really believe your promise not to post anything unless I answer questions about your couple of witnesses.

May I ask yet another question? Why did Jack Franzen said that he heard an explosion that he thought was a firecracker and THEN after the other shots he saw blood in JFK's head? www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/Index.htm

Why did his wife noticed the same pattern? http://www.patspeer.com/chapter7%3Amorepiecesofthepuzzle

The Frazens were not in the "upper-end" of Dealy Plaza, which you believe to be the only place this "firecracker" was heard.

Edited January 6, 2015 by Andric Perez