Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

[Robert Mady]

Jon, fascinating thread.

I have not caught up to the end of the thread so if these points have already been addressed I apologize.

The extensive training you received to learn a foreign language is an eye opener and unless there is much of OSWALDs military history that has been hidden it seems unlikely that he could have received adequate training in Russian in a short time to be proficient.

May I ask some questions:

1) Do we know with certainty that OSWALD was as fluent in Russian as we have been lead to believe? It seems odd that he spoke English while in Russia, could this be a hint that he may not have understood Russian? Have we just been mislead about OSWALDs true ability to speak Russian, is it possible that he had rudimentary ability and Marina was continuing to provide instruction?

2) The theory that OSWALD was a communist from youth is not plausible to me based on OSWALD attaining a top secret security clearance and then working with the CIA to help navigate top secret U2 spy planes over Russia, I can not believe OSWALD could have passed a back ground check. How could OSWALD have passed a back ground check for any security clearance? The military and our society at that time were paranoid of any communist, why allow OSWALD to join the military or put in a position to obtain secrets that most people in high levels of government were not even aware of?

3) The U.S. government is not stupid, intelligence would have never allowed a person familiar with a top secret program like U2 to go to Russia and certainly not return without recourse for claiming he would disclose secrets to the Russian. How is it possible to explain this, OSWALD went to the US Embassy, all they needed to do was arrest him for suspected treason?

4) LOVELADY claimed his child mistook him for OSWALD, this is just BS, LOVELADY does not look like OSWALD this is nothing but a myth. LOVELADY was altered to look like DOORMAN.

I love your description of your brother the 'tin foil hat specialist'.

This is off the subject but I was at a chiropractor and he told me of a patient that came in wearing a tin foil lined ball cap.

The doctor immediately assumed the guy was a nut, but was inquisitive and asked why the tin foil?

The patient informed the doctor he wore the tin foil hat because the government has the ability to decipher thoughts.

What was startling is when this patient revealed his education and past employment, he was a highly degreed physicist and electronics expert who had been working for the government and weapon industry on electronic weapons and was brilliant. He claimed to be involved with the electronic weapons used against the Iraqi's that when employed caused them to literally surrender in mass in a matter of minutes.

If you notice the news, the police now employ microwave weapons against protesters and probably other technologies that have not been disclosed.

Living in dense populated areas we are also bathed in radio energy from cell phones, radio, TV and power grid, a physicist claimed that in some areas the energy is equal to being on the deck of a carrier and being swept by radar.

Maybe tin foil hats should be more fashionable?

[Jon G. Tidd]

Robert Mady,

Oswald's ability to speak, read, and write Russian is worthy of research. I'm thinking of discussing one alleged aspect of his ability to write (and speak) Russian, the so-called Walker letter or note, in a separate diary. I have some new, eye-opening information on this document. Meantime, it's certain Oswald didn't attend what is now called the Defense Language Institute (DLI). As you suggest, his service record doesn't have a "hole" into which a Russian training class (47 weeks when I attended DLI) can be fitted.

You are correct about the unlikelihood of Oswald's getting a security clearance via a background check if he was an avowed communist. On the other hand, a mere interest in Marxism wouldn't have caused background-check problems. A background checker would have been mainly interested in whether he was law abiding, basically honest, basically trustworthy; and whether he had problems with alcohol, drugs, women, gambling, debt repayment.

FWIW, I think Oswald (John Armstrong's Harvey) was an odd duck who was inclined to do odd duck things. If this assessment is correct, it's quite possible more than one intelligence service would have kept tabs on him, to try to determine if he could provide useful information or if he had been recruited by some other intelligence service.

As for electromagnetic energy, all of us are bathed in it: sunlight, garden variety radio waves, the light given off by a computer screen, etc. It's generally harmless to humans, as far as anyone knows. High-energy electromagnetic energy (x-rays, gamma rays, certain lasers, for example) are dangerous to humans. I'm open-minded about brain-wave detection and manipulation and generally do not trust scientists and engineers who work on hidden projects for the U.S. government.

[Paul Brancato]

There is little reliable evidence that Oswald was a Marxist from youth, and if I recall the only fellow serviceman who,pushed that was Kerry Thornley.

[Paul Brancato]

I'd love to see the research on the Walker note.

[Mark Knight]

I'd love to see the research on the Walker note.

As would I.

[Jon G. Tidd]

One way to think about whether "Oswald" (Harvey) was an intelligence agent is to ask whether in his visible actions he acted autonomously or whether he acted as a puppet.

In "defecting" to the USSR there are no facts inconsistent with the proposition he acted autonomously.

In leafletting in New Orleans, same. Sure, he associated with Bannister, it's pretty clear, but there are no facts clearly demonstrating Bannister was pulling his strings. Nor anyone else.

In Dallas, he seemed to be manipulated by Ruth Paine but without realizing she was guiding his behavior. It's impossible to imagine she was controlling him with his assent.

Oswald (Harvey) doesn't appear to be acting knowingly as anyone's agent. He appears to be an unusual guy trying to make a go of it for himself and his family. A guy with some beliefs and an adventurous spirit but with no ambition.

[David Andrews]

Part of ambition lies in attaching yourself to better connected figures in hope of advancement. It doesn't always work out - you can find the examples regularly over at Slate or Salon, or in the WSJ. Fools' names and faces.

[Thomas Graves]

Stephen,

You ask what is my core theory.

My core belief is that the person married to Marina learned to speak Russian from birth. And that anyone who undertakes to study that person gets off track immediately without accepting and pursuing this fact.

You ask whether the person married to Marina was a leftist. I believe he was.

You ask whether he was co-opted by US intelligence. I believe he believed he was under the protection of and at the call of some intelligence service. I know however there were and are many intelligence services operating in the U.S.

Peter Dale Scott makes an interesting point:

"Perhaps the greatest paradox about the Marine G-2 and ONI records on Oswald is that they

show sustained interest in learning more from the State Department about Oswald's alleged renunciation

of citizenship; but never, apparently, about his self-confessed offer of espionage." (page 7)

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf

Taking Scott's statement into consideration, it seems to me that Oswald might have been instructed by Marine G-2 or the ONI to "go to the U.S. Embassy in Moscow right before they close on a Saturday, pretend to try to renounce your citizenship (but don't actually do it so we can easily bring you back after you've done some spying / dangling for us in Russia), and while you're inside the Embassy, where we know the KGB has listening devices, verbally threaten to offer the Soviets 'any information you've acquired as an enlisted radar operator' ".

It seems that the Marines and ONI were worried later that Oswald hadn't followed his instructions and had actually renounced his citizenship in Russia, either intentionally or by mistake.

Either that, or the Marines / ONI were in some kind struggle with the State Department...

--Tommy

Edited January 17, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Jon G. Tidd]

Peter Dale Scott makes an interesting point:

"Perhaps the greatest paradox about the Marine G-2 and ONI records on Oswald is that they

show sustained interest in learning more from the State Department about Oswald's alleged renunciation of citizenship; but never, apparently, about his self-confessed offer of espionage." (page 7)

http://jfk.hood.edu/...ale/Item 02.pdf

This passage tells me ONI had a limited interest in Oswald. It wanted to know something it would have known if he were an ONI agent. The passage tells me Oswald wasn't an ONI agent.

Why would ONI have wanted to know whether Oswald had renounced his U.S. citizenship? That would be important information to any intelligence service that had an interest in Oswald.

Why did ONI have any interest in Oswald? My guess is that he naturally came on ONI's radar screen when he "defected" to the Soviet Union.

For all anyone here knows, ONI was tasked with keeping an eye on any former marine or navy man who formerly had access to classified information and who now "defected" or otherwise travelled to a communist country.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Jon G. Tidd

[David Andrews]

Might ONI's specific interest in Oswald be pure lip service, designed to show that ONI did indeed "take an interest" - in what it already knew and didn't need - but leaving actual espionage material out of the discussion?

[Jon G. Tidd]

David Andrews,

Yes as a matter of intelligence protocol.

I have to ask, however, why a military intelligence service would have taken an interest in Oswald.

If he represented a threat to the U.S. Navy, sure. If not, I don't know why ONI would have tracked him. ONI's job is to serve the U.S. Navy.

[Thomas Graves]

David Andrews,

Yes as a matter of intelligence protocol.

I have to ask, however, why a military intelligence service would have taken an interest in Oswald.

If he represented a threat to the U.S. Navy, sure. If not, I don't know why ONI would have tracked him. ONI's job is to serve the U.S. Navy.

Why would the ONI have tracked Oswald? If he wasn't an ONI false defector to Russia, then maybe Oswald appeared to the ONI and Marine Intelligence be a true defector or even a wanna-be spy who had done such goofy things as trying to renounce his US citizenship in Russia and who had told the US Consul in Moscow that he intended to tell the Soviets all about the radar he'd used and also "something of special interest". Oswald's Marine Corps MOS was "aviation electronics operator" and, having worked with the U2 spy plane in that capacity, he probably had a relatively high-level security clearance. (His former commanding officer at El Toro said that everyone who worked inside the radar "bubble" must have had a minimum security clearance of "secret".)

Or was it something more sinister than that?

To wit: I believe ONI sent to Russia several false defectors in the late 1950's, and it seems to me that Oswald fit the profile of an ONI false defector, sent there to see if the Ruskies were even interested in learning what he knew about Marine Corps radar and the U2. If they weren't interested, that would suggest that the drunk Russian general, whom Popov heard say (before Oswald appeared on the scene) that the Russians already knew (or thought they knew) all about the U2, was correct, which in turn would indicate that there was a mole in US intelligence who had leaked the U2 information to the Russians.

Could Oswald have been that mole, having told the U2 secrets to his Japanese "girlfriend" at the Queen Bee bar when he was stationed at Atsuki?

--Tommy

Edited March 28, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

David Andrews,

Yes as a matter of intelligence protocol.

I have to ask, however, why a military intelligence service would have taken an interest in Oswald.

If he represented a threat to the U.S. Navy, sure. If not, I don't know why ONI would have tracked him. ONI's job is to serve the U.S. Navy.

Jon,

You ask: Why would the ONI have tracked Oswald?

Well, gosh, if Oswald wasn't an ONI false defector to Russia, then he must have seemed to be a true defector or, heaven forbid, a wanna-be spy doing such crazy things as trying to renounce his citizenship and announcing his intention to commit espionage.about the radar he'd used in tracking the U2 for the CIA and the Marine Corps (a department of the Navy), as well as something "of special interest". Oswald's MOS was "aviation electronics operator" and, having worked with the U2 spy plane in that capacity, he probably had a high-level security clearance. (His former commanding officer at El Toro said that everyone who worked inside the radar "bubble" must have had a minimum security clearance of "secret".)

Or was it something more "sinister" (in the context of the JFK assassination) than that?

To wit: I believe ONI sent to Russia several false defectors in the late 1950's, and it seems to me that Oswald fit the profile of an ONI false defector, sent there to see if the Ruskies were even interested in learning what he knew about Marine Corps radar and the U2. If they weren't interested, that would suggest that the drunk Russian general, whom Colonel Popov heard say (before Oswald appeared on the scene) that the Russian military already knew (or thought they knew) all about the U2, was correct, which in turn would indicate that there was a mole in US intelligence who had leaked the U2 information to the Russians. I said "sinister" above because this would mean that Oswald had been an intelligence agent who, by definition, had been manipulated or controlled by his intelligence "controllers" while in the U.S. and then in Russia and then back in the U.S., again.

Here's a weird but interesting question that just now sprang into my mind: Could Oswald have been that mole, having spilled the U2 secrets to his beautiful Japanese "girlfriend" at the "Queen Bee" when he was stationed at Atsugi?

Questions:

Was Popov's mole real or just a figment of Angleton's imagination?

If real, was he (or she) ever found by US intelligence?

I realize that Popov himself was arrested and executed by the KGB probably due to the bungled trade craft of his CIA contacts / controllers in Russa, and not due to a mole per se.

But what about what that drunken Russian general and what he had told Popov about the U2?

Did the Russians really know all about the U2 before Oswald went to Russia? I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

--Tommy

edited and bumped

Edited January 20, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

David Andrews,

Yes as a matter of intelligence protocol.

I have to ask, however, why a military intelligence service would have taken an interest in Oswald.

If he represented a threat to the U.S. Navy, sure. If not, I don't know why ONI would have tracked him. ONI's job is to serve the U.S. Navy.

Jon,

You ask: Why would the ONI have tracked Oswald?

If Oswald wasn't an ONI false defector, he must have seemed to be a true defector or, heaven forbid, a wanna-be spy doing such crazy things as trying to renounce his citizenship and announcing his intention to commit espionage regarding the radar and new height-finding device he'd used for tracking the U2, as well as something "of special interest". Oswald's MOS was "aviation electronics operator" and, having worked with the U2 spy plane in that capacity, he probably had a high-level security clearance. (His former commanding officer at El Toro said that everyone who worked inside the radar "bubble" must have had a minimum security clearance of "secret".)

Or was it something more "sinister" (in the context of the JFK assassination) than that?

I believe ONI sent to Russia several false defectors in the late 1950's, and it seems to me that Oswald fit the profile of an ONI false defector, sent there to see if the Ruskies were interested in learning what he knew about Marine Corps radar and the U2. If they weren't interested, that would suggest that the drunk Russian general, whom Colonel Popov heard say (before Oswald appeared on the scene) that the Russian military already knew (or thought they knew) all about the U2, was correct, which in turn would indicate that there was a mole in US intelligence who had leaked the U2 information to the Russians. I said "sinister" because it would mean that Oswald had been an intelligence agent who had been manipulated while in Japan and in Russia and back in the U.S., again.

Was Popov's mole real or just a figment of Angleton's imagination?

If real, was he (or she) ever found by US intelligence?

I realize that Popov himself was arrested and executed by the KGB probably due to the bungled trade craft of his CIA contacts / controllers in Russa, and not due to a mole per se.

But what about what that drunken Russian general had told Popov about the U2?

Did the Russians really know all about the U2 before Oswald went to Russia?

I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

Could Oswald have told the girls at the Queen Bee about the U-2?

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/S%20Disk/Scott%20Peter%20Dale/Item%2002.pdf

--Tommy

edited and bumped

Edited and bumped again.

Jus' tryin' to get a reasoned response from Tidd or Hancock, or...

Edited March 28, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[David Andrews]

David Andrews,

Yes as a matter of intelligence protocol.

I have to ask, however, why a military intelligence service would have taken an interest in Oswald.

If he represented a threat to the U.S. Navy, sure. If not, I don't know why ONI would have tracked him. ONI's job is to serve the U.S. Navy.

Forgive my ignorance, but were there not in this period still bureaucratic ties between the Navy and the Marine Corps? Jim Garrison's thinking on Oswald and Intelligence seems to have factored this in.

PS: In his most recent appearance on Black Op Radio, Jim DiEugenio refers to a spike in military personnel defections to Russia in the period that Oswald and Walker decamped. Admittedly, the Cold War was a provocation, but not all these defectors could have been pacifist trendies nor political adventurers. DiEugenio also references Otto Otepka's travails in sorting out real and false (Intel-sponsored) defectors.

Edited January 20, 2015 by David Andrews