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Jon G. Tidd

Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

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I think it's implausible to argue that Oswald was not some kind of intelligence asset. Remember, J. Edgar Hoover wrote an official memo about the problem of someone impersonating Oswald a few years before the assassination. It's doubtful that the director of the FBI would be wasting time writing memos about a wife-beating, minimum wage loser, or that anyone, anywhere, would be interested in impersonating such a nonentity.

Armstrong's theory has many holes, but his research clearly unearthed a myriad of data which indicate that Oswald's background (and Marguerite's as well) were murkier and littered with the kind of puzzling gaps and contradictions that one simply doesn't find in the backgrounds of random people.

Not only J. Edgar Hoover, but the humble housewife Ruth Paine was inquiring about Oswald years before the assassination. Someone was impersonating him, multiple times, in the weeks leading up to the assassination. He even had a co- worker at the Book Depository, Billy Lovelady, who looked enough like him to fool his own children. Oswald was apparently such a memorable character that he inspired fellow Marine Kerry Thornley to base a novel upon his life, again before the assassination.

Then there was this young "loner's" close friendship with the cultured George DeMohrenschildt, who had ties to the intelligence community and Jackie Kennedy herself. DeMohrenschildt was decades older than Oswald. Why would a man like that want to be best friends with a 24 year old minimum wage earner like Oswald? However you look at it, Oswald was no "psycho" enraged over the failure of his marriage. He clearly had some kind of ties to someone or something powerful.

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Don Jeffries,

Given your comment, the question becomes, what is the identity of "someone or something powerful"?

It's postulated by JFK assassination writers and students that Oswald was being manipulated by the CIA or the FBI or ONI. For sure, the "someone or something powerful" manipulating Oswald would be deep in the shadows, hidden from view.

The job of counter-intelligence is to uncover such manipulation and trace it to its source. I think that's what Angleton and his group were doing -- trying to figure out whether Oswald was being manipulated and if so, by whom.

The fact it's so easy to point one's finger at the CIA, FBI, and ONI tells me they were not Oswald's manipulators.

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I think it's implausible to argue that Oswald was not some kind of intelligence asset. Remember, J. Edgar Hoover wrote an official memo about the problem of someone impersonating Oswald a few years before the assassination. It's doubtful that the director of the FBI would be wasting time writing memos about a wife-beating, minimum wage loser, or that anyone, anywhere, would be interested in impersonating such a nonentity.

Not to nitpick, but that phrase is open to other interpretations. There are a number of instances in intelligence lore of enemy agent using the birth certificates of others to create false identities. The Rudolf Abel case has a couple of them, and that was only a short time before Oswald's trip to the USSR. IF that's what Hoover meant, we could paraphrase it as "We should check and make sure that the guy using this birth certificate is really Oswald, not a Soviet agent who obtained it somewhere." It was among the possibilities.

We can't rule out other logical possibilities to help bolster the case. There's some degree of ambiguity in what Hoover said.

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The part that I'm wondering about is that, whenever Oswald's name is mentioned in the same sentence with "military intel," everyone automatically goes with ONI simply because Oswald was a Marine. But even today, there are Navy and Air Force personnel serving on Army bases and elsewhere. If I was going to "hide" Oswald in a military intel unit, I'd find a way to get him attached to Army intel...because, just as most people here look at it, it's not an OBVIOUS place for him. So folks looking for records on Oswald probably also wouldn't think to check for a file in the archives of the Army.

Because ONI is the "obvious" place for him, not Army intel.

And if you have an operative you want to further distance from his real operation, why not downgrade his discharge from "honorable," to divert even more suspicion?

Just a theory, mind you...

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Stephen,

How would we logically explain the Navy Department memo that revealed Ruth Paine's interest in the Oswald family, from 1957? I don't see any ambiguity there.

We may never know what agency Oswald was associated with, but everything about his background and short life suggests he must have been employed by one of them. He certainly wasn't a lone rebel-Marxist without a cause.

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Stephen,

How would we logically explain the Navy Department memo that revealed Ruth Paine's interest in the Oswald family, from 1957? I don't see any ambiguity there.

We may never know what agency Oswald was associated with, but everything about his background and short life suggests he must have been employed by one of them. He certainly wasn't a lone rebel-Marxist without a cause.

I'm sure you see my point about the Hoover statement. I would like to see the Navy memo, if you could link it.

I can agree with your word "suggests," but not with "must have."

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I would like to see that memo too Don.

Jon - you mention Angleton and his group looking for who was manipulating Oswald. Wasn't it that very group that segregated Oswald's CIA files, and made sure to keep the real Oswald Intel for that small group?

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Stephen,

The Navy memo was referenced by Mary Bancroft, close friend of Michael Paine's parents, and Allen Dulles's mistress, in her autobiography. It was referred to again by Jim DiEugenio in Destiny Betrayed, and he credited researcher Michael Levy with first obtaining it. Perhaps he has a link to a copy of the actual memo, or knows who does.

I understand what you're saying in regards to Hoover's statement, but this leads us into the whole quagmire of the Oswald defection. Then we have the ridiculous diary and alleged suicide attempt, and most importantly his re-emergence into America, at the height of the Cold War, with little difficulty or interest from the intelligence community.

However we look at it, there had to be a lot more to Lee Harvey Oswald than an embittered Marxist who barely eked out a living. As Richard Schweiker put it years ago, "the fingerprints of intelligence" were all over Oswald.

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I'm confused. I found a reference in DiEugenio's book to Bancroft knowing Ruth's family; and I found a separate reference to Michael Levy, but I don't see anything about 1957 or a Navy memo. Do you know the page?

Do I infer correctly that you think Paine was some sort of government agent?

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I believe DiEugenio's reference was on page 343.

I think that both the Paines had backgrounds that would lead reasonable people to suspect they were connected in some way to American Intelligence.

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I hope somebody can find that document....I spent a long time looking for it and found nothing but dead ends. Until I see it I'm taking it as a myth...

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Where is that memo or interview in which someone at CIA refers to RP as a "w***e," not in the sexual sense, but in Agency parlance for an asset that would do anything, whether untruthful or unlawful, for the Agency out of patriotism. I think this was cited in an older thread.

Edited by David Andrews

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Jon and Thomas - you have both circled the difficulties of Armstrong's theory well I think. It doesnt make sense that there were two parallel lives from childhood on, yet that is what Armstrong suggests. But maybe there was an 'Oswald Project' run by an intelligence agency. I read about half or Armstrongs book, and just don't have the wherewithal to fact check all of the sightings of family members, multiple school records, etc. its either genius research or? But Thomas makes the point that I got stuck on too. Unless we are talking about some Boys from Brazil scenario it just seems too incredible. But an Oswald project seems completely plausible.

Many of the docs related to his being paid by the CIA (and other CIA docs) have "Oswald Project" as a "cc". When I find one in my files I will post. https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=1017644 is a link to a reference to the Oswald Project...

Paul -

I HAVE checked the sources, have checked the relationships and have checked the evidence over the past 2+ years with the help of almost daily conversations with John.

There are indeed two ways to look at it: Time moving forward with the connections being established and time looking backward with the evidence created to fit a need - or a combination of them both.

The evidence the WCR offers regarding his schooling in NYC for Sept 1952 thru Jan 1954 completely ignores Harvey's time at the Youth House detention center for skipping school so often. LEE did not miss school and when you take the time to simply add up the numbers and look at the dates... it is an obviously evidence which has been created for a reason.

With the many hundreds of thousands of immigrants coming to the US after WWII, many from eastern europe, finding someone to play the part would not be too hard.... plus they really didn't look all that much alike at that age.

BronxZooHARVEYandLEEin6thgrade-close-up_

The boy on the right, LEE, is shown in the fall of 1951, 6th grade. He was considered a leader of his class, a fighter who never backed down and was one of the largest boys in the class at over 5 feet and 100lbs.

CE1384 is the health card showing both May 1953 and Sept 1953 Height and Weight.

It states this boy is 5 foot 4 inches tall and weighs 114 lbs.

The boy on the left, as claimed by ROBERT OSWALD, went to the Bronx zoo with him in the summer of 1953.

I contacted the zoo to find out the height of these guard rails... the boy on the left cannot possibly be LEE Oswald from NOLA who moved to NYC in the summer of 1952.

There is of course mountains of evidence whcih illustrates the existence of these two boys. What we find is that after that summer, we do not see too many more photos of LEE (in the school yearbook), only Harvey except for the military and the 1959 passport.

I defend the work because it is the Evidence which gives the conspiracy away, not an Armstrong theory. That he went the extra step like Lane, Lifton and others to interview the witnesses both already done and those ignored to corroborate the real story. Maybe in 2014 mindset it would be very difficult to pull off... in 1952-63 and in the years soon afterward, not nearly as hard.

My guess would be Nagell's group the MID... yet the number of 3 letter orgs within the military is mind-dumbing... The ONI and MID are the two oldest US intelligence agencies. In my humble opinion the CIA was created to insulate the ONI/MID from prying eyes as operations became more black after WWII. Everyone blames the CIA for everything when in reality the ONI and MID among others are the actual culprits.

Oswald-Harveysquareshoulders-LEEdroppeds

ROBERT lies about when he was even in NYC with John Pic and Lee Pic places him in NYC in 1952 when Robert claims it was not until 1953.

Mr. PIC - So they moved out in about September 1952, maybe it was late September, early October, somewhere around there, so from about somewhere between September of 1952 and January 1953, my brother Robert came to New York on leave, and we were all invited up to the Bronx

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir; we were corresponding infrequently, I would say--not very many letters between I and Lee direct when I was in the service, especially the first part of my tour in the service.

In 1952, after traveling from Camp Pendleton, Calif., to Jacksonville, Fla. I did have a 10-day leave. They were in New York City at that time.

Mr. JENNER. This was then some time in 1953, I take it?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir--1952.

Mr. JENNER. 1952?

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. This was----

Mr. JENNER. You mean your mother and Lee that is the period of time they were in New York City?

Mr. OSWALD. That's correct.

Mr. JENNER. Living there.

Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Did you see them?

Mr. OSWALD. No, sir; not at that time. I spent my leave in Fort Worth, because I did not feel I had enough time to travel to New York and down to Jacksonville, Fla. After completing metalsmith school at Millington, Tenn., I took a 10-day leave.

Mr. JENNER. Fix the time.

Mr. OSWALD. This was July or August of 1953. I had my orders to go to Miami, Fla. I took a 10-day leave and left Millington, Tenn., by car and came to New York City and spent 10 days in New York with Lee, mother, John, and his family.

Mr. JENNER. Where did you stay?

Mr. OSWALD. At mother's apartment, with Lee, in the Bronx some place I do not recall the address.

Do you remember any of the places at which you took snapshots of Lee during this 10-day leave?

Mr. OSWALD. The Bronx Zoo I believe was about the only time I can recall taking any pictures of him.

BronxZooHARVEYfullpicturewithheighestima

Edited by David Josephs

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David, I looked at the document you linked and that Oswald Project is pretty clearly a post assassination research project...at least it seems that way to me at first glance. Do you have any pre assassination documents referencing an Oswald project?

Second, could you clarify what MID organization you mean, the Army Intel MID organization was disbanded in 1903 but various units especially in the Far East had military intelligence detachments, were you referring to one of them?

-- thanks, Larry

Edited by Larry Hancock

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David, I looked at the document you linked and that Oswald Project is pretty clearly a post assassination research project...at least it seems that way to me at first glance. Do you have any pre assassination documents referencing an Oswald project?

Second, could you clarify what MID organization you mean, the Army Intel MID organization was disbanded in 1903 but various units especially in the Far East had military intelligence detachments, where you referring to one of them?

-- thanks, Larry

I thought I had seen "Lee HENRY OSWALD P-" on a number of Mexico based docs and then the entire Wilcott thing which he relates as the payments prior to the assassination as payments into the Oswald Project.

winscottOct16saysOswaldseesKotikovandthe

This is according to the US ARMY MILITARY INTELLIGENCE HISTORY - A SOURCEBOOK (pdf)

In terms of the MID - yes, it did end in some respects in 1902 yet:

In 1903, Secretary of War Elihu Root established

the General Staff with three divisions. The MID was its Second Division.

4 This demonstrated that the stature of intelligence had grown, and its function had become institutionalized at the highest level within the Army for the first time. The MID was a key contributor to the Army.s planning for the Cuban operation. This was the first real mission that tested the proficiency of the new General Staff. The official U.S. Army intelligence history

states that the excellent planning by the Second Division, MID, and the Third or War College Division,

.should have served to silence forever any lingering doubts about the desirability of a General Staff Corps

being formed in the United States Army..5

And then it was Sherman Miles who ran and expanded MID during WWII

On September 1, 1939, he was promoted to Brigadier General and served as military attaché in London for half a

year before returning to the U.S., where he became a senior member of George C. Marshall's general staff. In the

General Staff, Miles was "Assistant Chief of Staff G-2", i.e., the head of the Military Intelligence Division (MID).[15]

In October 1918 the MID published the first Army-wide intelligence training literature titled Provisional Combat Intelligence Manual

To meet the growing demand for trained intelligence specialists in the field, the Military Intelligence

Training Center (MITC) was authorized in May 1942, but did not begin operations at Camp Ritchie,

Maryland, until 19 June 1942. It was staffed largely by MID staff and MI Reserve officers

Was Nagell not in MID or claim to be?

.

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