The Most Important Error the FBI told the Warren Commission about the Rifle

[Glenn Nall]

Most 6.5mm rifles shoot a bullet .264" in diameter, while the Carcano shoots a bullet .268" (.2677" actually) in diameter. However, 6.65 mm works out to .2618"

Robert, please explain? am i having some math issues?

6.5mm = .268" &

6.65mm (bigger) = .2618" (smaller) ?

Edited July 23, 2015 by Glenn Nall

[Kenneth Drew]

"Posted 10 July 2015 - 11:26 PM

Gary Murr, on 30 Jun 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

One should also be aware in reading this bumped thread that the WCC did not make 6.5mm Carcano ammunition that was "loaded with...bullets that were .264" in diameter." As I believe I indicated elsewhere in a thread on this forum, the 6.5mm Carcano ammunition manufactured by the WCC, and in particular the bullet component, was constructed utilizing specifications from Italian ballistic drawings/schematics supplied to Western by the U. S. Army Ordnance Department, diagrams acquired by the army as part of the massive quantities of "paperwork" confiscated by Allied forces during their liberation of Europe in 1944, 1945. I possess 60 rounds of this ammunition, from three different lot numbers, and the average bullet diameter size is just slightly over .2677".

Following the assassination, SA Robert A. Frazier of the FBI had in his possession CE399, a 6.5mm Carcano bullet made by the Western Cartridge Co., plus the unfired 6.5mm Carcano cartridge found in C2766, also made by the Western Cartridge Co. On top of this, the FBI also purchased several boxes of WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridges.

As part of his testimony to the WC, Frazier stated the dimensions of these WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullets that he had measured in his laboratory.

What diameter do you think he found the WCC bullets to be, and do you believe his measuring was accurate?"

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Some very interesting discussions but, I have yet to receive a reply to my question, although I am sure this post has been read many times.

Robert, are you going to give us the answer soon?

I guess I'm going to have to answer the question myself, as the person it is directed towards is not responding. If you're interested, I have bumped an old thread of mine titled "How a Popular Misconception Gave Away a Lie by the FBI". It deals with the Carcano ammunition, CE399 and FBI SA Robert A. Frazier.

From the Warren Commission testimony of SA Robert A. Frazier, FBI, describing the spent 6.5mm Carcano bullet referred to as CE 399:

"Mr. FRAZIER - The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters The diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches."

While I believe Frazier actually obtained the figure of 6.65 mm by measuring (or guessing), he likely obtained the diameter of .267" (actually .2677") and the length of 1.185" from a text, as these are correct dimensions but do not match the above photo, as do his diameter and land impression width measurements.

It should be pointed out here that the diameter of 6.65 mm Frazier obtained is impossible for a 6.5mm Carcano bullet. Most 6.5mm rifles shoot a bullet .264" in diameter, while the Carcano shoots a bullet .268" (.2677" actually) in diameter. However, 6.65 mm works out to .2618" and, outside of one experimental Swiss cartridge made for NATO, there is not a rifle I know that shoots a bullet this diameter. It would be easy to forgive Frazier this mistake and blame it on the fact CE 399 was flattened but, Frazier not only had the unfired bullet found in the chamber of C2766 to measure, the FBI also purchased WCC 6.5mm ammo. How Frazier came up with a diameter of 6.65 mm is still a mystery.

If we convert the length measurement of 1.185" to Metric, we get a length of 30.099 mm or 30 mm. Measuring the length of the bullet in the photo, I get 28.5 mm.

Once again, not a 6.5mm Carcano bullet."

As pointed out, the bullet measured in millimeters by Frazier, converts from 6.65 mm to .2618 inches.

Before anyone points out that CE 399 was slighty flattened at the base and difficut to measure, let me remind everyone that not only did Frazier have the pristine unfired bullet left in the chamber of C2766 to measure, he also went out and purchased several boxes of Western Cartridge Co. 6.5mm Carcano ammunition from the same lot as the cartridges allegedly purchased by Oswald.

Before anyone points out that CE 399 was slighty flattened at the base and difficut to measure, C=2πr will solve for the diameter of the bullet even if it is misshapen a little

[Glenn Nall]

oh - right. a diameter is a diameter, perfect circle or not.

[Mark Knight]

The sling on the rifle in the photo with the holster look similar, the sling on the rifle in the BYP doesn't seem to even resemble it. look at the photo in comment 260

I believe the entire Alba situation was used to suggest the sling was made for Oswald as opposed to provided and atached to the rifle by whoever it was that left it on the 6th floor.

I'd suggest that either no sling was sent and this other thing was used - some say it looks like a rope, I think it may be the cloth standard sling that Klein's says they send with rifles tha do not request a specific sling....

Point remain..

The BYPs are composites... the black clothing seen in the image was never found in Oswald's possessions...

I've seen the original, as have a few people who do the looking. While Roscoe White may have helped create the final product, I do not think it is he in the photo... there are other names to consider - but since the sources are unconfirmed I'll just leave it at that.

THAT rifle - I do believe I am in the process of proving via this essay I'm trying to finish - was never at Klein's along with the other 100 rifles in that shipment. In fact, there is not one shred of evidence which support that Klein's ever shipped or had in inventory these rilfes... only that 10 of 520 packing slips - one of which with C2766 listed - were used to create the evidence that Klein's rec'd that shipment.

I will prove otherwise. It's called "closed loop evidence" . As long as the evidence corroborates itself it can be believed. If it does not corroborate with any other process or order of shipment received (or that info is never offered to corroborate) we have a tautological presentation of evidence...

Slip #3620 with carton #3376 = Feb shipment = VC document = Blank Order = Hidell = Oswald

Except the only shipment related by the man who originally offered the slips is to June 1962 not Feb 1963.

And as much as DVP and other LNers cannot fathom it, each and every item in Evidence IS the conspiracy, NOT the investigation of the event... except for JFK's shirt and JAcket - there is no way to spin that to incriminate Oswald.

In a private email, Gerry Hemming--the man who once listed Klein's Sporting Goods as a former employer on one job application--told me to look towards Montreal as the source for C2766. But, Hemming being a notorious BSer, I never knew whether to take Hemming seriously on this point.

Even the late Tom Purvis believed that C2766 was meant to signal folks in high places to "circle the wagons" as if it was an "incoming" round...and Purvis believed it was the murder weapon.

Just thought I'd toss those two "nuggets" out there for the people who may not have been exposed to those theories before. Whether they're nuggets of gold or meadow muffins, I can't say with any authority.

[Mark Knight]

Most 6.5mm rifles shoot a bullet .264" in diameter, while the Carcano shoots a bullet .268" (.2677" actually) in diameter. However, 6.65 mm works out to .2618"

Robert, please explain? am i having some math issues?

6.5mm = .268" &

6.65mm (bigger) = .2618" (smaller) ?

The bullet diameter is .268"

The rifle barrel bore diameter is 6.5mm, which is .2559".

Now, Robert...show us again how the rifling in the barrel affects the ability to shoot a .268" bullet through a .256" bore.

[Glenn Nall]

i think what i'm asking is,

if 6.5mm converts to .268 inches ("6.5mm rifles shoot a bullet .264" in diameter, while the Carcano shoots a bullet .268"), how does a larger metric number, 6.65mm, convert to a smaller standard measurement, .2618 inches ("However, 6.65 mm works out to .2618")...?

Edited July 23, 2015 by Glenn Nall

[Robert Prudhomme]

Glenn

Look at this diagram of the inside of a rifle barrel:

Depicted are the riflings; in this case there are four rifings, just as inside of the 6.5mm carcano barrel. The raised portions are called "lands" and the distance from one land to an opposite land is called the "bore diameter". The widest portions are called "grooves" and the distance from one groove to an opposing groove is called the "groove diameter". The groove diameter is also the diameter of the bullet.

In the case of the 6.5mm Carcano, the bore (bore diameter) is 6.5 mm or .2559". The groove diameter is 6.8 mm or .268" (.2677") and this corresponds to the diameter of the Carcano bullet.

Frazier measured the Western Cartridge Co. bullets and found them to be 6.65 mm in diameter. Converting 6.65 mm from Metric equals .2618".

Have you read the other thread I bumped yet?

[Robert Prudhomme]

In case you are having trouble with this, think of the .30-06 cartridge and the .308 cartridge. Both rifles shoot a .30 calibre bullet and both rifles have a bore of .300".

The groove diameter of both rifles is .308", meaning each groove is .004" deep.

Just to confuse everyone, the .30-06 (introduced in 1906) went with the bore designation while the .308 went with the bullet diameter designation.

[Glenn Nall]

see, this is what was throwing me:

6.5 mm = .2559"

6.65mm = .2618"

the numbers both grow in the same direction - UP.

when i saw "6.5mm rifles shoot a bullet .264" in diameter, while the Carcano shoots a bullet .268" What i saw was 6.5mm = .264" or = .268" which are both HIGHER than .2618" because the 6.5 designation you refer to is the bore width and the bullet is actually the groove width (6.8 in this case). and 6.65 refers to "who knows" since it complies with neither land nor groove in a 6.5mm Carcano rifle (happens to be right in the middle, doesn't it).

out of curiosity, is it that the MC grooves are deeper than other 6.5's since the bullets are 2 different sizes?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Yes, the Carcano (no Mannlicher in front of it) has unusually deep rifling grooves, compared to other 6.5mm calibre rifles. This is one of the reasons this rifle also had "progressive" or "gain" twist rifling, as opposed to the normal "standard" twist riflings prevalent on the majority of rifles, although the progressive twist rifling was replaced with standard twist rifling with the introduction of the short rifle (Oswald's alleged weapon) in 1938.

[Robert Prudhomme]

see, this is what was throwing me:

6.5 mm = .2559"

6.65mm = .2618"

the numbers both grow in the same direction - UP.

when i saw "6.5mm rifles shoot a bullet .264" in diameter, while the Carcano shoots a bullet .268" What i saw was 6.5mm = .264" or = .268" which are both HIGHER than .2618" because the 6.5 designation you refer to is the bore width and the bullet is actually the groove width (6.8 in this case). and 6.65 refers to "who knows" since it complies with neither land nor groove in a 6.5mm Carcano rifle (happens to be right in the middle, doesn't it).

out of curiosity, is it that the MC grooves are deeper than other 6.5's since the bullets are 2 different sizes?

If Frazier was telling the truth, the WCC cartridges were loaded with bullets .2618" in diameter, This would have seriously affected the accuracy of C2766.

[Robert Prudhomme]

"Posted 10 July 2015 - 11:26 PM

Gary Murr, on 30 Jun 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

One should also be aware in reading this bumped thread that the WCC did not make 6.5mm Carcano ammunition that was "loaded with...bullets that were .264" in diameter." As I believe I indicated elsewhere in a thread on this forum, the 6.5mm Carcano ammunition manufactured by the WCC, and in particular the bullet component, was constructed utilizing specifications from Italian ballistic drawings/schematics supplied to Western by the U. S. Army Ordnance Department, diagrams acquired by the army as part of the massive quantities of "paperwork" confiscated by Allied forces during their liberation of Europe in 1944, 1945. I possess 60 rounds of this ammunition, from three different lot numbers, and the average bullet diameter size is just slightly over .2677".

Following the assassination, SA Robert A. Frazier of the FBI had in his possession CE399, a 6.5mm Carcano bullet made by the Western Cartridge Co., plus the unfired 6.5mm Carcano cartridge found in C2766, also made by the Western Cartridge Co. On top of this, the FBI also purchased several boxes of WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridges.

As part of his testimony to the WC, Frazier stated the dimensions of these WCC 6.5mm Carcano bullets that he had measured in his laboratory.

What diameter do you think he found the WCC bullets to be, and do you believe his measuring was accurate?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some very interesting discussions but, I have yet to receive a reply to my question, although I am sure this post has been read many times.

Robert, are you going to give us the answer soon?

I guess I'm going to have to answer the question myself, as the person it is directed towards is not responding. If you're interested, I have bumped an old thread of mine titled "How a Popular Misconception Gave Away a Lie by the FBI". It deals with the Carcano ammunition, CE399 and FBI SA Robert A. Frazier.

From the Warren Commission testimony of SA Robert A. Frazier, FBI, describing the spent 6.5mm Carcano bullet referred to as CE 399:

"Mr. FRAZIER - The bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. Its diameter is 6.65 millimeters. The length--possibly it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters The diameter is .267 inches, and a length of 1.185, or approximately 1.2 inches."

While I believe Frazier actually obtained the figure of 6.65 mm by measuring (or guessing), he likely obtained the diameter of .267" (actually .2677") and the length of 1.185" from a text, as these are correct dimensions but do not match the above photo, as do his diameter and land impression width measurements.

It should be pointed out here that the diameter of 6.65 mm Frazier obtained is impossible for a 6.5mm Carcano bullet. Most 6.5mm rifles shoot a bullet .264" in diameter, while the Carcano shoots a bullet .268" (.2677" actually) in diameter. However, 6.65 mm works out to .2618" and, outside of one experimental Swiss cartridge made for NATO, there is not a rifle I know that shoots a bullet this diameter. It would be easy to forgive Frazier this mistake and blame it on the fact CE 399 was flattened but, Frazier not only had the unfired bullet found in the chamber of C2766 to measure, the FBI also purchased WCC 6.5mm ammo. How Frazier came up with a diameter of 6.65 mm is still a mystery.

If we convert the length measurement of 1.185" to Metric, we get a length of 30.099 mm or 30 mm. Measuring the length of the bullet in the photo, I get 28.5 mm.

Once again, not a 6.5mm Carcano bullet."

As pointed out, the bullet measured in millimeters by Frazier, converts from 6.65 mm to .2618 inches.

Before anyone points out that CE 399 was slighty flattened at the base and difficut to measure, let me remind everyone that not only did Frazier have the pristine unfired bullet left in the chamber of C2766 to measure, he also went out and purchased several boxes of Western Cartridge Co. 6.5mm Carcano ammunition from the same lot as the cartridges allegedly purchased by Oswald.

Before anyone points out that CE 399 was slighty flattened at the base and difficut to measure, C=2πr will solve for the diameter of the bullet even if it is misshapen a little

Precisely, Ken but, with a plethora of pristine bullets still in the box for Frazier to measure with his Vernier caliper, why even bother measuring CE 399?

[Kenneth Drew]

Just to prove it was the same size.