Jump to content
The Education Forum
  • Announcements

    • Evan Burton

      OPEN REGISTRATION BY EMAIL ONLY !!! PLEASE CLICK ON THIS TITLE FOR INFORMATION REQUIRED FOR REGISTRATION!:   06/03/2017

      We have 5 requirements for registration: 1.Sign up with your real name. (This will be your Username) 2.A valid email address 3.Your agreement to the Terms of Use, seen here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21403. 4. Your photo for use as an avatar  5.. A brief biography. We will post these for you, and send you your password. We cannot approve membership until we receive these. If you are interested, please send an email to: edforumbusiness@outlook.com We look forward to having you as a part of the Forum! Sincerely, The Education Forum Team
David Von Pein

John Connally's Lapel

Recommended Posts

Take a look at this very clear version of Z-Film frame 317....and notice the complete lack of an injury (or any blood even) at the BACK of President Kennedy's head. There's no wound in the rear of the head visible whatsoever.....

Z317.png

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now, Dave, let's put our thinking caps on, and go over what we are looking at here. Even if the tie did move to the right, and James seems to have some good evidence it did not, what do you think would make the upper section of Connally's tie jump to the right, in the space of one frame?

I mean, seriously, Dave, this is even harder to swallow than the lapel flipping out, simply because debris had hit the inside of his coat.

A tie is merely a piece of cloth, attached only at the collar of the shirt. It hangs down, completely independent of everything around it.

Explain to me how a bullet passing through Connally's coat and shirt, in the vicinity of his right nipple, can make his tie move sideways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For Pete sake, Bob, I never implied that the BULLET directly was responsible for the tie movement. The tie is bulging outward at the exact same instant the shoulder shrugging/flinching is beginning---at Z225. When Connally flinched his shoulders, it affected his necktie too. The bullet didn't directly cause the tie to move--but Connally's flinching sure as heck did. And as I said previously, that tie bulge is perfectly consistent with the flinching and shoulder hiking we see in Z225. They are "in harmony" with each other.

Don't tell me YOU can't see the tie moving in the various clips I provided earlier, Bob. You aren't going to deny that John Connally's tie IS moving around at Z225, are you? Take a look again....
110a.+Z224-Z225+Toggling+Clip.gif

Z-Film-Clip-SBT-In-Motion---3.gif

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think DVP understands the technology involved in the examination James is making. Therefore, he must ridicule it.

Sometimes what we THINK we see isn't what is actually recorded. It is the ability of the mind to "fill in the blanks" without other evidence that allows the mind to "see" motion when a series of images is played in a certain sequence.

So let's work with what actually IS in the images of the frames that make up the Z-film, and then move forward from there. I'm looking forward to discovering what James finds. The difference is, if James finds evidence that supports DVP's claims, I know that he will acknowledge that DVP was correct. I don't believe that DVP would do the same if he was examining the film and found evidence that James was right.

Oh, who am I kidding? DVP won't examine the film in the same degree of detail. It simply won't happen. He'll stick with someone else's GIF even if there is proof that the frames have been corrupted.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For Pete sake, Bob, I never implied that the BULLET directly was responsible for the tie movement. The tie is bulging outward at the exact same instant the shoulder shrugging/flinching is beginning---at Z225. When Connally flinched his shoulders, it affected his necktie too. The bullet didn't directly cause the tie to move--but Connally's flinching sure as heck did. And as I said previously, that tie bulge is perfectly consistent with the flinching and shoulder hiking we see in Z225. They are "in harmony" with each other.

Don't tell me YOU can't see the tie moving in the various clips I provided earlier, Bob. You aren't going to deny that John Connally's tie IS moving around at Z225, are you? Take a look again....

110aZ224-Z225TogglingClip.gif

Z-FilmClipSBTInMotion3.gif

Dave

Now, I just put on a tie and shirt a minute ago, plus a suit coat. I've been trying every type of flinch and shrug I can think of and, you know what? That stupid tie just hangs there limp as a sausage.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

David,

Maybe you should not be scolding fellow forum members until you have done some homework.

You say to Robert “Don’t tell me YOU can't see the tie moving in the various clips I provided earlier, Bob. You aren't going to deny that John Connally's tie IS moving around at Z225, are you? Take a look again…” In doing so you are suggesting that he ought to see what is evident if only he looked.

What you are seeing is a consequence that between Z 223 and Z 224 the colour and well as the position of the tie and the silver roof support clash.

In Z224 the roof support cuts through the tie so that we only see the upper and lower parts of the tie. In-between is the roof support.

These frames shown through a gif suggest the tie is moving when actually it is not. The shape of the tie has changes because of this clash.

You really ought to do your homework.

James.

The Tie part 1:- Z 223

Z%20223%20and%20Tie%20and%20Roof%20top_z

The Tie Part 2:- Z 224

Z%20224%20the%20Tie%20Part%202_zpsaycqsj

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That lower gif shows the window glass. The 'shadow' is a reflection traversing it. (Further, the lollypop costella frames are not good to use for anything like this. They are amongst the most altered frames available. Costella has applied various 'corrections' to already poor frames that distorts, compresses and combines, color and position values creating new pixels that removes data and introcuces artificial artefacts to the frames.)

Note of James's observation re roof support and tie.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John,

Thanks I agree completely. I had forgotten that we were also looking through glass and - aside from what Costella did to the frames - this has added a further distortion.

Thanks.

James.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is getting more hysterical with each passing hour.

James provides further proof that he's lost in the woods. James now seems to think that I think Connally's tie is moving between 223 and 224. I never claimed any such thing. The tie isn't moving (or "bulging") between 223 and 224, and I have never said it was. The tie is bulging outward, without a doubt, between Z224 and Z225, just like I've been saying all along. Why James is moving the time period up to 223-224 is anyone's guess. ~shrug~

110a.+Z224-Z225+Toggling+Clip.gif

The way things are going now, it looks like it will only be a few days more before James Gordon will be denying the existence of John B. Connally in the car at all.

And once again I want to point out to James my previous posts in this thread [Posts 104 and 105] which feature SIX different "versions" of the Z-Film and Z-Film GIF clips, which I collected over the years from multiple different sources. They are not from the exact same source that James thinks contains "corrupt" frames. And one of those six sources is the 1998 MPI digital version of the Z-Film. And surely James isn't going to say that MPI's version consists of "corrupt" frames. Are you, Jim?

And in all six of those Zapruder Film examples that I provided, Governor Connally's reactions between Z224 and Z227 can be seen. Every single one. So Jim will have to call ALL SIX sources "corrupt" in order for Connally's tie NOT to be moving at Z224-Z225 and for Connally's shoulders NOT to be flinching at Z224-Z225 and for Connally's right arm NOT to be jerked skyward at Z225-Z226.

Good luck with all that, Jim.

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems obvious to me that JFK and Connally are reacting to being shot at the same time. The lapel of Connally's jacket clearly pops out. How can it be a shadow, so localised and well defined, that appears in such a short time frame? If someone can answer that without resorting to suggesting that the Zapruder film is a cartoon (an argument that is pathetic and has already been destroyed) I'd love to hear it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

David,

I hope to reply in detail today.

I am quite surprised by your post 114. Throughout this thread I have been very detailed in my criticisms of this frame sequence from 222 - 230. This frame sequence is - as I understand it - central to the issue whether John Connally was injured at the same time as JFK. I am embarrassed by your lack of detailed responses. All you appear to be able to do is insult. Suggesting that at some point I will argue that John Connally was not even in the car is quite pathetic. Members, including myself, have made a series of detailed criticisms of this footage and what it means and all you can do is make comments that reflect more on you than they do on myself and the membership of this forum.

I am also really surprised at the quality of the video clips you are issuing as evidence. The clip referenced in post 114 is amongst the poorest I have seen. Earlier you supplied a clear clip and I will be using that to argue my case. Clips, such as the one in 114, are too poor to be able to establish anything. As regards the tie. I understood that to bunch is also to make a movement. I note you have made no response to the post earlier today where it was pointed out why to some it may appear that the tie has bunched. This has been one of your staple arguments as to why John Connally was wounded at this time. Two members - including myself - have made clear why that impression was an allusion and you are unable to make a response.

All you are reduced to is making jokes and insulting.

James.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, Jim, when you can't even get the frame numbers right, you (of course) will not be able to see the tie bulge for yourself. In Post 111, you seem to think the "tie bulge" is occurring between 223 and 224. Why on Earth did you suggest that? I never claimed any such thing. The tie is moving in the 224-225 clip.

But I'm enjoying seeing all the CTers in "Full Fledged Denial" mode in this thread. I've seen the SBT denial bit being done before, of course, on many other forums. But this thread takes the cake. I have provided clip after clip showing exactly the same JBC reactions. And yet you still cling to the absurd notion that all of those clips are "corrupt" --- even the MPI version!

Pathetic.

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pehaps DVP, would care to comment on Dr Carrico's words.

"The throat wound was located just below the Adam's apple and just above the knot of the tie.

Dr Carrico, who saw Kennedy's throat wound before it was distorted during a tracheotomy and before the President's shirt and tie were roomed, was asked to point to his own throat. His questioner clarified the location for the record.

Mr Dulles: And you put your hand right above where your tie is?

Dr Carrico: Yes, sir.

Edited by Ray Mitcham

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Big deal, Ray.

It's not like Carrico ran up to JFK's throat wound with a tape measure during those critical moments when the doctors were trying desperately to save the President's life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Big deal, Ray.

It's not like Carrico ran up to JFK's throat wound with a tape measure during those critical moments when the doctors were trying desperately to save the President's life.

You don't need a tape measure to see that a wound is above a tie.

p.s. you never explained how a bullet could cause two slits in a shirt, and in places that don't match the overlap.

Keep pushing.

Edited by Ray Mitcham

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×