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John Simkin

Greald Ford and CIA Files

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In C. David Heymann’s book, RFK: A Candid Biography of Robert F. Kennedy (1998), he writes:

"In May 1997, Gerald Ford publicly admitted that in 1975, while president of the United States, he had suppressed certain FBI and CIA surveillance reports that indicated that JFK had been caught in a crossfire in Dallas, and that John Roselli and Carlos Marcello had orchestrated the assassination plot."

Does anyone else know about this?

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In C. David Heymann’s book, RFK: A Candid Biography of Robert F. Kennedy (1998), he writes:

"In May 1997, Gerald Ford publicly admitted that in 1975, while president of the United States, he had suppressed certain FBI and CIA surveillance reports that indicated that JFK had been caught in a crossfire in Dallas, and that John Roselli and Carlos Marcello had orchestrated the assassination plot."

Does anyone else know about this?

John,

I've never heard of any of this, and I follow the Ford Presidential Library files

pretty closely, as you know...keep this thread alive. I will try to track

the whole statement down...this (if true) strongly supports our friend

Tosh Plumlee.

Note Ford purportedly mentions CIA surveillance reports and John Roselli, both

of which would have been prominent in the De-Briefing of Tosh and Sergio

at JM wave by Tracy Barnes and Wm. Harvey. The crossfire, if attributed to Ford,

Is a huge confirmation of a forward shooter, or shooters, and of course,

it brings Carlos Marcello back to top of the list...a warning, though, this

could be back up cover story for the original blown cover story (LHO)

Shanet

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Maybe Heymann is referring to suppression of reports by Ford's Rockefeller Commission. If the commission suppressed such reports, was Ford that closely involved?

In any case, if what Heymann says is true, it's mystifying that Ford's admission escaped everyone's notice except Heymann's. For Heymann not to cite some source for his statement is pretty shoddy work.

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In C. David Heymann’s book, RFK: A Candid Biography of Robert F. Kennedy (1998), he writes:

"In May 1997, Gerald Ford publicly admitted that in 1975, while president of the United States, he had suppressed certain FBI and CIA surveillance reports that indicated that JFK had been caught in a crossfire in Dallas, and that John Roselli and Carlos Marcello had orchestrated the assassination plot."

Does anyone else know about this?

Interesting because also in 1997 is when Pres. Clinton announced that all FBI files be removed involved with JFK assassintion and be for for public seeing. Any admission from Pres. Ford would have been needed at that time.

I don't know the exact date of when Pres. Clinton made that announcement in 1997, does anyone know that date? Tried to find it in the book they gave me, there seems to have been a lot of papers released at certain times starting in 1994 if I do have that correct on this.

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Ron

You are probably on to something.

Ford ran quite a bit of CIA material past his Vice President's special commission,

this could be the source of this attribution. Remember Colby spilled the beans and the Rockefeller and Church committees picked over the files released by Colby and otherwise leaked to Congress and journalists like Seymour Hersh.

But this sounds like direct Warren Commission material he suppressed, although he could have learned about it later.

shanet

Maybe Heymann is referring to suppression of reports by Ford's Rockefeller Commission. If the commission suppressed such reports, was Ford that closely involved?

In any case, if what Heymann says is true, it's mystifying that Ford's admission  escaped everyone's notice except Heymann's. For Heymann not to cite some source for his statement is pretty shoddy work.

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In C. David Heymann’s book, RFK: A Candid Biography of Robert F. Kennedy (1998), he writes:

"In May 1997, Gerald Ford publicly admitted that in 1975, while president of the United States, he had suppressed certain FBI and CIA surveillance reports that indicated that JFK had been caught in a crossfire in Dallas, and that John Roselli and Carlos Marcello had orchestrated the assassination plot."

Does anyone else know about this?

John,

I've never heard of any of this, and I follow the Ford Presidential Library files

pretty closely, as you know...keep this thread alive. I will try to track

the whole statement down...this (if true) strongly supports our friend

Tosh Plumlee.

Note Ford purportedly mentions CIA surveillance reports and John Roselli, both

of which would have been prominent in the De-Briefing of Tosh and Sergio

at JM wave by Tracy Barnes and Wm. Harvey. The crossfire, if attributed to Ford,

Is a huge confirmation of a forward shooter, or shooters, and of course,

it brings Carlos Marcello back to top of the list...a warning, though, this

could be back up cover story for the original blown cover story (LHO)

Shanet

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In C. David Heymann’s book, RFK: A Candid Biography of Robert F. Kennedy (1998), he writes:

"In May 1997, Gerald Ford publicly admitted that in 1975, while president of the United States, he had suppressed certain FBI and CIA surveillance reports that indicated that JFK had been caught in a crossfire in Dallas, and that John Roselli and Carlos Marcello had orchestrated the assassination plot."

Does anyone else know about this?

John,

I've never heard of any of this, and I follow the Ford Presidential Library files

pretty closely, as you know...keep this thread alive. I will try to track

the whole statement down...this (if true) strongly supports our friend

Tosh Plumlee.

Note Ford purportedly mentions CIA surveillance reports and John Roselli, both

of which would have been prominent in the De-Briefing of Tosh and Sergio

at JM wave by Tracy Barnes and Wm. Harvey. The crossfire, if attributed to Ford,

Is a huge confirmation of a forward shooter, or shooters, and of course,

it brings Carlos Marcello back to top of the list...a warning, though, this

could be back up cover story for the original blown cover story (LHO)

Shanet

Shanet: Not sure if this will help. And I am not sure about what Ford said. However, perhaps the following might help. Now I know when I say this some out there will say I'm nuts and my information is false. Its not. But so be it. Keep in mind all the CIA/Kennedy records are not released as of this date. If I remember correctly 2023 most of the complete CIA files will be released pertaining as to what the CIA knew and when.

Within these files are two documents attributed to President Ford and his statements. I find it strange this information was withheld from the WC and Fords statements and information he had received was classified a matter of National Security, after 1976. Soon after that Rosellie was killed.

The FBI had Rosellie under surveillance for most of the sixties and many times in the early mid seventies. However what is not known is Rosellie had a double that was used to throw the FBI off. Thus allowing Rosellie to come and go at ease, without being tailed. J Hoover knew of this arrangement and was part of the CIA cover plan. His SAC's were not. Question where did Rosellie "come and go" and why did he need a CIA double dispatched from WAVE station to cover for him? Rosellie already knew that ambush was already in the pipe. Rosellie is the one who leaked ( the rumor) this information to Military Intel Pentagon..

YA, YA, I know I'm Crazy, but let me continue. Rosellie was also a double agent for Military and worked into the crime families information pipe line and relayed this back to Hover and MI through WAVE Station and the CIA's Cuban desk.. There is a story here... but because it fits into the PIGEON birth format everyone misses it. If its not in black and white and you can't crumple it in your hand then there is nothing there... so It did not happen... I know that. But let me ramble, while I can... Its as good as what I have heard over the years. But what do I really know? Rosellie was working a deal with the United States Government. He was gonna be a free man with another name and ID even be relocated at government expense.

The question (about what President Ford had said) came up at a close door session with Congressman Tom Downing and others on his staff. On two separate occasions they sent investigators to two or three different locations through out the country.., one in Phoenix Arizona, one to Miami, one to New Orleans. This was shortly before the HSCA was formed (not sure if it was "Rick Feeney who came to Phoenix or not; can't remember. However Bob Morrow had received the reports from Phoenix because he was trying to get on Downings investigative staff at the time and was working with Feeney in order to get appointed as an investigator into the JFK assassination. ( Morrow had been talking about his past counterfit Paso deal in Cuba and Nixion's letter getting him off the hook with the Department of Justice; he was working various staff members at the time.., staff members who were looking into the Kennedy mater)

The question came up about the CIA information that President Ford had seen. And when the information was first available. The Congressman then tried to get the Miami and Dallas dispatches. They were quickly classified and withheld as a National Security matter It was said there release would jeopardies methods and operatives. Those two reports were sealed until, I think 2023.

Now did Ford say that, what was in that book?... I think he did and quickly withdrew his statement after being briefed that he had just released classified National Security subject matter held by the CIA and the Military INTEL... Why was it so important to hold this information back... Because the other document that President Ford saw while in office was the one where MI and the CIA sent a team to abort the assassination... If that is true then THEY knew, perhaps not all the ins and outs and the whos and whos nots.. but they knew. Now does that make a conspiracy? We will not know until 2023 and all concerned will be really dead.

But what do I know?. I am not allowed to "speculate" or have "opinions". Pilots are not allowed those luxuries. Hope you find something in here that will help your leg work... The best to you Tosh Plumlee :tomatoes:tomatoes

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I won't know if I don't ask.

Do you think the materials that you are referring to were the same materials that were to be used by the Senate Committee for the hearing of Roselli? Roselli and Sam G. were both killed just prior to those hearings.

Those materials are highly restrictive materials still but are out.

But not sure if that is what you are talking about or it is something else.

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I won't know if I don't ask.

Do you think the materials that you are referring to were the same materials that were to be used by the Senate Committee for the hearing of Roselli?  Roselli and Sam G. were both killed just prior to those hearings.

Those materials are highly restrictive materials still but are out.

But not sure if that is what you are talking about or it is something else.

Nancy: Thats a good start. I'm not sure if that is the document, but the other two documents are the ones they were looking for... Of course it will be said that ALL the requested information was released. The letter I was refering to was the earlier one Congressman Tom Downing wrote asking for much the same thing. The only material released was about the Castro assassination... nothing about the information Rosellie had concerning a hit on the President. I am sure that information is still locked away somewhere. Thanks for your interest. Tosh

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Ok This set of papers was under the names of Roselli and Sam G. It starts out with just prior to Bay of Pigs and goes up to Watergate. They were all grouped together. It didn't have to much about JFK in it. Some but not alot.

As I stated these papers all grouped together are still classified highly restrictive materials.

Hope I don't get to much static on this for saying this.

These papers to any researcher can't make just a one page at random copy of the materials of this file. If are coded just a researcher on their card they would have to make a copy of all of the papers it would take them days to do that. So it is a deterant. No one would want to do that. Cost a lot to do it and very time filling. They can but it would be hard to do that. They don't have fast copy machine's down at the archieves and to do just one page is more than an at home machine.

I could make a copy of just one page of this. I am coded much different than most.

It did discuss the means to try to kill Castro, in these files.

Now that I know what to look for someday when I do go down again I will have these files pulled again and look for the paper that you are talking about to know for sure if this is that file. I will look for the name you just stated. Thanks.

Any help like this can help me out to move on faster with this.

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If anyone can identify some specific documents pertaining to Roselli that are still being held confidential until some future date I would love to see the list so we can try to get them via FOIA.

Roselli's testimony to the Committees is released and available, it is extremely lengthy though. In addition you can find literally thousands of pages of FBI documents on Roselli on the WEB including surveillance documents. These documents pretty well detail the FBI's position on Roselli - unfortunately large portions pertaining to his business contacts and associates was redacted by the FBI. The documents in this release came from a FOIA and cover a period of some 20 years.

There is a hole in the documents as far as the FBI surveillance goes and that hole is from the September - November time frame in 1963; a related hole appears to be the lack of any reports from SAC Miami on Roselli.

Beyond that, there are a host of CIA IG, Church committee and State Department documents that detail his part in the Castro assassination plot - including correspondance between the FBI and CIA on his role. Most of this is on the CIA segregated CD's available from the ARRC - I mention that because it is a huge amount of paper and the CD's are definitely the easiest way to get it. Also these documents contain all the details of the FBI and Dade country investigation of his murder.

-- Larry

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If anyone can identify some specific documents pertaining to Roselli that are still being held confidential until some future date I would love to see the list so we can try to get them via FOIA.

Roselli's testimony to the Committees is released and available,  it is extremely lengthy though.  In addition you can find literally thousands of pages of FBI documents on Roselli on the WEB including surveillance documents.  These documents pretty well detail the FBI's position on Roselli - unfortunately large portions pertaining to his business contacts and associates was redacted by the FBI.  The documents in this release came from a FOIA and cover a period of some 20 years.

There is a hole in the documents as far as the FBI surveillance goes and that hole is from the September - November time frame in 1963;  a related hole appears to be the lack of any reports from SAC Miami on Roselli.

Beyond that,  there are a host of CIA IG,  Church committee and State Department documents that detail his part in the Castro assassination plot - including correspondance between the FBI and CIA on his role.  Most of this is on the CIA segregated CD's available from the ARRC - I mention that because it is a huge amount of paper and the CD's are definitely the easiest way to get it.  Also these documents contain all the details of the FBI and Dade country investigation of his murder.

-- Larry

Larry: Good points. But my point being that there is still information sealed and It could be important, I think... I only stated that investigators I know were looking into what Ford said, or knew as far back as 1974-75. His statement was made after that, I think... I happen to think the Tom Downing information before the HSCA was formed might shed new light on the Rosellie matter and the reason for an ABORT TEAM.

I believe documentation was released to the public only what was wanted and specified in the request. That information was provided. I ask what was left out? That information would compromise on going operators and their operations and besides it was not spacificaly ask for only the Castro assassination matter was given out to a later investigative committee. Now I know if there are no documents then it did not happen and we should'nt go there. But I think going through another angle is important. I have only tried to point that other angle out..

Congressmen Tom Downing, one of the first people who tried to get a committee formed to look into the assassination. What information did his researchers provide in hopes of getting a committee budgeted? That might prove or disprove what was written in the book referenced as to what Ford said. Because nothing has surfaced by now does not mean it did not happen.

If documents were available on some matters then a lot of us ops boys would be DEAD, like Rosellie and others and we would have been dead by the time the information hit the public. Some of us out there still do not understand how it works.... we don't take names and addresses in our game... We don't, or did'nt, care. One other point. What do I have to gain by trying to get what I THINK I know out there in Never Never land. I am not writing a book or want to be in books. If I am I don't care whats written. Its nothing but trouble for me. Its like fighting with a pack of wolves. Do you think I like that? I am only trying to help in my own way and in my own memory... in my own time.

Thanks again Larry. I am working on those questions you ask... but as you know I have to be careful as to how I answer them because they have to check with known facts and documents or I have to leave it out; and I do have to PROBE my memory... I do not read books or have access to the vast material that is out there. As I have said... "I was just a little old pilot... I piled it here and I piled it over there. I piled it whereever they wanted it piled..." It was all their BS anyway Have a good one Tosh :unsure::D

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Hi Tosh, thanks for the post. I do think its important that somebody try to some up with the source what you described in regard to C. David Heymann’s book, RFK: A Candid Biography of Robert F. Kennedy (1998). Hopefully somebody can come up with a copy and let us know - that would be a heck of a bombshell for a writer to throw into a book and not cite a source for it.

As many forum members know, I certainly belive that Roselli aided and abetted the conspiracy as one of the organizers of the attack - not only that but there is evidence to suggest that he was directly involved not only into bringing Ruby into the plot and perhaps more importantly in covering up Ruby's associations and actually managing Belli's defense of Ruby in a manner to take Ruby out of circulation and get him convicted. There are also some very specific holes in the FBI surveillance and records on Roselli.

My goal for some time now has been to point them out and get others involved in trying to run down the specific holes that we do know about.

I appreciate your taking time on the questions I sent and I won't pester you on any of them until you are ready - I have been investigating the Texas Military Intelligence leads you provided with little luck so far. We actually do have pretty solid documentation on Fourth Army and the MI units attached to it because of all the background work the ARRB did but so far no luck in turning up the specific detachements or individuals you referenced.

-- Larry

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If anyone can identify some specific documents pertaining to Roselli that are still being held confidential until some future date I would love to see the list so we can try to get them via FOIA.

Roselli's testimony to the Committees is released and available,  it is extremely lengthy though.  In addition you can find literally thousands of pages of FBI documents on Roselli on the WEB including surveillance documents.   These documents pretty well detail the FBI's position on Roselli - unfortunately large portions pertaining to his business contacts and associates was redacted by the FBI.   The documents in this release came from a FOIA and cover a period of some 20 years.

There is a hole in the documents as far as the FBI surveillance goes and that hole is from the September - November time frame in 1963;  a related hole appears to be the lack of any reports from SAC Miami on Roselli.

Beyond that,  there are a host of CIA IG,  Church committee and State Department documents that detail his part in the Castro assassination plot - including correspondance between the FBI and CIA on his role.   Most of this is on the CIA segregated CD's available from the ARRC - I mention that because it is a huge amount of paper and the CD's are definitely the easiest way to get it.  Also these documents contain all the details of the FBI and Dade country investigation of his murder.

-- Larry

Larry: Good points. But my point being that there is still information sealed and It could be important, I think... I only stated that investigators I know were looking into what Ford said, or knew as far back as 1974-75. His statement was made after that, I think... I happen to think the Tom Downing information before the HSCA was formed might shed new light on the Rosellie matter and the reason for an ABORT TEAM.

I believe documentation was released to the public only what was wanted and specified in the request. That information was provided. I ask what was left out? That information would compromise on going operators and their operations and besides it was not spacificaly ask for only the Castro assassination matter was given out to a later investigative committee. Now I know if there are no documents then it did not happen and we should'nt go there. But I think going through another angle is important. I have only tried to point that other angle out..

Congressmen Tom Downing, one of the first people who tried to get a committee formed to look into the assassination. What information did his researchers provide in hopes of getting a committee budgeted? That might prove or disprove what was written in the book referenced as to what Ford said. Because nothing has surfaced by now does not mean it did not happen.

If documents were available on some matters then a lot of us ops boys would be DEAD, like Rosellie and others and we would have been dead by the time the information hit the public. Some of us out there still do not understand how it works.... we don't take names and addresses in our game... We don't, or did'nt, care. One other point. What do I have to gain by trying to get what I THINK I know out there in Never Never land. I am not writing a book or want to be in books. If I am I don't care whats written. Its nothing but trouble for me. Its like fighting with a pack of wolves. Do you think I like that? I am only trying to help in my own way and in my own memory... in my own time.

Thanks again Larry. I am working on those questions you ask... but as you know I have to be careful as to how I answer them because they have to check with known facts and documents or I have to leave it out; and I do have to PROBE my memory... I do not read books or have access to the vast material that is out there. As I have said... "I was just a little old pilot... I piled it here and I piled it over there. I piled it whereever they wanted it piled..." It was all their BS anyway Have a good one Tosh :unsure::D

Hey, Tosh

A here is one from the time I was a pilot to go along with what you said

at the end of your message above;

I used to be a pilot

And flew just everywhere

I'd pilot here and pilot there

All in careful glee

Then one day in '62

In inverted flight I flew

Under a bridge and over a hedge

And piled up my old J-3

But saved from the wreck

And settling dust and debris

Was the the pilot called ol' self destruct

The pilot I used to be!

{c} by Harry Dean

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