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David Von Pein

Did Lee Harvey Oswald Order The Rifle? The Answer Is Yes

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Kenneth,

The number of already-debunked conspiracy myths and inaccuracies in your last post is staggering.

You totally disregard OSWALD'S handwriting on all of the various documents relating to the rifle purchase order.

You totally dismiss and/or disregard the two large bullet fragments (CE567 & 569) that were found in the front seat of the limo. And those fragments came from Rifle C2766 and no other gun (and that's the same gun with OSWALD'S prints on it and the same gun Klein's mailed to OSWALD'S post office box). I wonder how bullet fragments from the gun shipped to LHO's P.O. Box by Klein's managed to find their way into JFK's car? Any ideas on that?

You totally disregard OSWALD'S prints being on the C2766 rifle itself (the palmprint and the two fingerprints on the trigger guard; the latter were said to be OSWALD'S prints by Vincent Scalice in 1993).

You totally cast aside the fact that OSWALD had at least one card in his wallet on Nov. 22 bearing the name "Hidell" (with OSWALD'S picture on it, to boot). And yet you claim there's no evidence at all that Oswald used the name Hidell. Was this Selective Service card planted on him?

You totally ignore Vol. 6 of the HSCA re: the backyard photos, in which it is said that the gun Oswald is holding in the pictures is the C2766 rifle.

In short, you are dead wrong about----everything.

A perfect .000 batting average. Not even a foul tip. Congratulations.

Edited by David Von Pein

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Robert,

Why are you trying to jam the word "Argentine" into Kenneth Drew's mouth and posts? Kenneth never said anything about his TWO make-believe "Mausers" specifically being "Argentine" Mausers. He just said Mauser, period.

And in most of the early Nov. 22 reports on TV and radio, the commentators are calling the TSBD rifle a "German Mauser". (Except for a couple of references made by Ron Reiland and Bob Clark, who call it an "Argentine Mauser" at one point.)

It's true that one of the Dallas deputies who first saw the gun on the sixth floor on Nov. 22, Seymour Weitzman, said in his affidavit on Nov. 23 that the rifle was a "7.65 Mauser".....

Seymour-Weitzman-Affidavit

But Weitzman, of course, was incorrect about the type of gun it was, and he later said he was mistaken, as everyone can hear him say for themselves in the 1967 video I presented earlier, which includes a statement by Weitzman that a large number of conspiracy theorists have completely ignored. And the CTers who haven't ignored it usually say that Weitzman was lying in that 1967 interview with CBS. The CTers can see the shiftiness in Weitzman's eyes. But the things a CTer can "see" don't usually have any relation to reality at all.

More Mauser Talk (And Roger Craig Talk Too):

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/09/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-803.html

Dave

You frustrate me almost as much as some of these other half baked researchers. Do you ever actually read anything completely through?

Why do I call it an Argentine Mauser? For the simple fact that Seymour Weitzman identified the rifle in his statement as a "7.65 Mauser", and the only Mauser on the planet chambered for the 7.65x53mm cartridge just happens to be known worldwide as the "Argentine Mauser".

Do you get it now or do you want me to draw pictures for you?

P.S.

Ron Reiland and Bob Clark were obviously the only ones who knew their butts from a hole in the ground when it came to rifles.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

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Ron Reiland and Bob Clark were obviously the only ones who knew their butts from a hole in the ground when it came to rifles.

Yeah, right. Reiland and Clark got some inaccurate info from either the newswires or from some other source, and that suddenly makes them world-class rifle experts, right? Too funny.

Edited by David Von Pein

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3 little questions:

1. Why was the obvious discrepancy between the advertised rifle length and the length of CE139 never questioned (a response along the lines of "well, they had the rifle used by Oswald to assassinate the President so there was no need to question it." won't do)?

2. When was the check cashed, according to the WC records?

3. Did the handwriting experts examine the original documents?

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Thanks, Larry, for the post as well.

My general point, David, is that being an authority on the assassination whichever way you lean (i.e. believing in a conspiracy or not), you have some responsibility to keep up with the work of other serious researchers, especially if you continually advocate your position in order to influence others. Instigating debates over matters in which the evidence has been available since the 70's while refusing to read current research just because you have a disposition against it makes you appear hard-headed.

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Ron Reiland and Bob Clark were obviously the only ones who knew their butts from a hole in the ground when it came to rifles.

Yeah, right. Reiland and Clark got some inaccurate info from either the newswires or from some other source, and that suddenly makes them world-class rifle experts, right? Too funny.

This is precisely what everyone on this forum cannot stand about you. Even when you are obviously wrong, you cannot admit it, and resort to childish taunts.

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So, Bob P., you actually think Ron Reiland and Bob Clark examined the rifle THEMSELVES before reporting that an "Argentine" Mauser had been found in the Depository?

Neither one of those men examined the rifle for themselves. They were merely repeating the incorrect information they received from another source (or sources).

When the facts were finally confirmed via the DPD about what type of rifle it was (at approximately 6:16 PM CST on 11/22/63, as this CBS-TV footage proves), everyone then began reporting it correctly as an "Italian" rifle. The words "Mannlicher-Carcano" weren't heard until the afternoon of November 23rd, however.




=============================


GARY MACK SAID [AT 12:16 PM EDT ON 5/25/2015, VIA E-MAIL]:

Hi Dave,

You are quite correct about Reiland and Clark regarding the "Argentine" weapon. One has to read the AP and UPI wire reports - and I certainly have - to know that they distributed the misinformation early that afternoon. No individuals were named as sources, but they certainly weren't Reiland and Clark who were, respectively, in a news car on the way to Oak Cliff and [at] Parkland when the Carcano was found in the TSBD.

The only newsmen on the TSBD sixth floor when the rifle was found were Tom Alyea of WFAA and Kent Biffle of the Dallas Morning News. Weitzman identified the rifle as a Mauser while it was still on the floor and partially hidden by boxes. Later, when Lt. Day lifted it out for Capt. Fritz, Day found the rifle was an Italian weapon.

Unfortunately, either Alyea or Biffle had already gotten word out to their newsroom and the misidentification went around the world only to be repeated by Reiland and Clark before corrections appeared. Such problems are quite normal in the news profession to this day but inaccurate information gets corrected as soon as possible.

Gary


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thank you, Gary. As always.

DVP


=============================


IN A RELATED DISCUSSION IN EARLY 2014, MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

I noticed Boone, at the mock trial, said he learned the rifle was a Carcano only after the FBI had their hands on it and said it was a Carcano. He did not know Lt. Day was parading the rifle in front of the press telling them it was an Italian rifle made in 1940 on the early evening of 11-22-63...I guess.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

As far as I know, Lt. J.C. Day of the DPD never uttered a word while parading around holding the rifle over his head at 6:15 PM on November 22. Day was never interviewed by the press. He merely carried the gun in silence.

As I said in one of my forum posts recently, I don't think very many people at the DPD had an up-close look at the rifle at all on Day #1. Lt. Day, in fact, *might* have been the only person who had a really good look at it (and perhaps Captain Fritz too, who we can see via Tom Alyea's film was examining the gun up close in the TSBD).

But it was Lt. Day who took possession of the gun inside the TSBD, and it was Day who carried it out of the building, and it was Day who then locked it up in a lock box at City Hall for a few hours while he went back to the Depository to take pictures.

Lieutenant Day then went back to City Hall and started examining the rifle in greater detail. Then, close to midnight, he was told to stop working on the rifle and to turn it over to Vincent Drain of the FBI, which he did.

Ergo, the initial incorrect "Mauser" reports coming from Dallas County Deputies Weitzman and Boone became the "facts" as far as many people (and reporters thirsty for details) were concerned.


MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

I've seen a couple clips of the rifle traveling through the DPD, but never see the whole thing like I wish we did. When asked what kind of rifle it was, Day said, "6.5, apparently made in Italy 1940".

I [saw] it aired, and heard him say it on a CNN show called "The Assassination of President Kennedy" on 11-21-13.

I recorded it and just watched it again.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I don't recall that clip with Lt. Day saying something to the press. I wonder if I have it in my video collection? I'm not sure, but I'm sure going to look for it. Thanks, Michael. And my apologies for saying that Lt. Day never spoke to the press in the DPD corridors. I guess you just proved me wrong in that regard. Thank you.


MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

Why that is not included in the clips of this historic event, I do not understand.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Perhaps it is buried in my collection someplace. I don't know. But thanks for the info nonetheless.


PAT SPEER SAID:

I watched the CNN program he [Michael G.] mentions, and can verify that the quote of Day is accurate.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, Pat.

I just did a little digging into my video archives and verified for myself that at least one TV network (CBS) was most definitely identifying the assassination weapon as a 6.5-millimeter Italian rifle as of approximately 7:00 PM (Dallas time) on Friday, November 22nd.

In the video clip below, which was aired live on CBS-TV on the evening of 11/22/63, Dan Rather of CBS News clearly calls the rifle being held up by Lt. J.C. Day an "Italian 6.5-millimeter" gun. We can't hear Lt. Day say anything; we only hear Rather's narration in this clip, but it is clear from the video that Lt. Day definitely is speaking to the members of the press at the crowded City Hall. He's probably identifying the rifle in just the manner confirmed by Michael Giampaolo and Pat Speer:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-591.html#An-Italian-Gun

So the conspiracy theorists who continue to say that everybody on radio or television was labelling the murder weapon as a Mauser all the way through Day 1 (November 22nd) are proven wrong (just as I was proven wrong on this issue too) by the above video alone. And if CBS was reporting that the assassination weapon was a 6.5mm. Italian rifle during the evening of November 22nd, you can bet that most of the other TV and radio networks were reporting the very same thing at that same time as well.

Thanks again to Michael and Pat. Your confirmation of Lt. Day's statements in the 2013 CNN program prompted me to dig further myself. And the digging paid off. Much obliged.


GARY MACK SAID:

David,

The original KRLD-TV video tape of Day holding the rifle is in The Sixth Floor Museum's permanent collection and it has been licensed to many documentaries over the years. The audio track includes Day's first words which were, "There's no name on it." From there, going by memory, he says, "6.5mm, made in Italy, 1940."

As Day said in his museum's oral history, he was taking the rifle back to his office and held it overhead so reporters couldn't touch it. As the clock shows, the scene happened at 6:16pm on Friday and both AP and UPI wire services soon fed his words around the world.

Boone and Weitzman, who both worked for the Sheriff's Department, never saw the rifle again after they or it left the TSBD. One of the two reporters present, either Tom Alyea/WFAA-TV or Kent Biffle/Dallas Morning News, presumably reported the ID information to their offices, so that must be how the Mauser story started.


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, Gary.


GARY MACK SAID:

By the way, the video of Day was not shown live; the scene was recorded at KRLD and fed to CBS soon thereafter for Rather to narrate on the network.

Gary


DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yes, I know. It's obvious that Dan Rather isn't narrating a LIVE scene taking place at Dallas City Hall. That's why I phrased a portion of my forum post in this manner (knowing full well that the clock on the wall behind Lieutenant Day was showing a time of 6:16):

"CBS was most definitely identifying the assassination weapon as a 6.5-millimeter Italian rifle as of approximately 7:00 PM (Dallas time) on Friday, November 22nd."

Thanks.

DVP
January 2014 Edited by David Von Pein

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The question shouldn't be whether Oswald ordered the rifle, the question should be if and when did he pick it up?

How come not one Post Office employee recalls handing a rifle over the counter to Oswald and taking the balance of payment for the pistol?

If it happened on the day the Warren Commission said it did - Oswald was working at Jaggers/Chiles/Stoval from before the PO opened until after it closed, so when did he pick it up?

The J/C/S records also indicate that on that same day Oswald worked on the account of the Sam Bloom ad agency - the one responsible for the motorcade route and publicity for JFK's visit. Did Oswald pick up the rifle and pistol while officially working on the Bloom account?

And after the rifle left the post office, where did it go? To Oswald's apartment, where deMohrenschildt and his wife saw it in a closet?

And after leaving that apartment, how did the rifle get to New Orleans and back to Texas? In Mrs. Pane's station wagon?

And in Mrs. Paine's garage, how could the rifle have been kept in a heavy wool blanket yet leave no hair strains from the blanket?

And if it was kept in the garage until the morning of the assassination, what rifle did Oswald use to practice with, as many have testified that he did - and as his brother Robert has clearly stated - if Lee did not practice with that rifle and scope in the days and weeks leading up to the assassination, then he didn't kill JFK.

There are many problems with the rifle, but whether Oswald ordered it is not one of them.

Bill Kelly

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The question shouldn't be whether Oswald ordered the rifle, the question should be if and when did he pick it up?

So you seem to accept the fact that Oswald (using his "Hidell" alias) did order the rifle. But you can't envision a situation where Oswald could have merely gone to the post office, handed the clerk the slip he found in his P.O. Box, and then have the rifle package handed to him by the clerk??

That scenario is played out in hundreds or thousands of post offices all over the USA every day.

Plus, let me ask this simple, common-sense question.....

Why would somebody order something by mail-order and have it shipped to their post office box (whether it be a rifle or any other item) and then never go to the post office to pick up the merchandise? Why would anybody do that, Bill?

How come not one Post Office employee recalls handing a rifle over the counter to Oswald and taking the balance of payment for the pistol?

You think a clerk should have instant recall regarding every package he/she gives out to every John Doe in Dallas---even after eight months have passed? Come on.

====================

RELATED CAT FIGHT....

JAMES DiEUGENIO SAID:

Von Pein is the prime example of the Warren Commission Crazies or kamikazes. I mean, see there was never any evidence that Oswald ever picked up the handgun used to shoot Tippit at Railway Express. In fact, even more exculpatory, there was never any evidence that the FBI even went there. So how did the transaction happen?

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

How about that for sterling logic and razor-sharp evaluation of the evidence against Oswald in the Tippit murder, folks? DiEugenio is much more concerned about the lack of a paper trail that would connect Lee Harvey Oswald to the Smith & Wesson revolver that killed Officer J.D. Tippit than he is about the PROVABLE FACT that Oswald had that very same gun ON HIM (as he was trying to shoot more policemen with it) when he was arrested inside the Texas Theater just a half-hour after Officer Tippit was gunned down.

There are no words left for me to use to describe how utterly preposterous DiEugenio's thinking is regarding this matter concerning Oswald's revolver and the Railway Express.

To DiEugenio, Oswald being caught red-handed with the murder weapon in his very own hands in the movie theater on 11/22/63 is of far less importance than being able to answer the following question --- When and where did Oswald first pick up the revolver after he purchased it by mail order in early 1963?

More revolver chatter:

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/08/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-42.html

Edited by David Von Pein

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So, Bob P., you actually think Ron Reiland and Bob Clark examined the rifle THEMSELVES before reporting that an "Argentine" Mauser had been found in the Depository?

Neither one of those men examined the rifle for themselves. They were merely repeating the incorrect information they received from another source (or sources).

When the facts were finally confirmed via the DPD about what type of rifle it was (at approximately 6:16 PM CST on 11/22/63, as this CBS-TV footage proves), everyone then began reporting it correctly as an "Italian" rifle. The words "Mannlicher-Carcano" weren't heard until the afternoon of November 23rd, however.

=============================

GARY MACK SAID [AT 12:16 PM EDT ON 5/25/2015, VIA E-MAIL]:

Hi Dave,

You are quite correct about Reiland and Clark regarding the "Argentine" weapon. One has to read the AP and UPI wire reports - and I certainly have - to know that they distributed the misinformation early that afternoon. No individuals were named as sources, but they certainly weren't Reiland and Clark who were, respectively, in a news car on the way to Oak Cliff and Parkland when the Carcano was found in the TSBD.

The only newsmen on the TSBD sixth floor when the rifle was found were Tom Alyea of WFAA and Kent Biffle of the Dallas Morning News. Weitzman identified the rifle as a Mauser while it was still on the floor and partially hidden by boxes. Later, when Lt. Day lifted it out for Capt. Fritz, Day found the rifle was an Italian weapon.

Unfortunately, either Alyea or Biffle had already gotten word out to their newsroom and the misidentification went around the world only to be repeated by Reiland and Clark before corrections appeared. Such problems are quite normal in the news profession to this day but inaccurate information gets corrected as soon as possible.

Gary

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thank you, Gary. As always.

DVP

=============================

IN A RELATED DISCUSSION IN EARLY 2014, MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

I noticed Boone, at the mock trial, said he learned the rifle was a Carcano only after the FBI had their hands on it and said it was a Carcano. He did not know Lt. Day was parading the rifle in front of the press telling them it was an Italian rifle made in 1940 on the early evening of 11-22-63...I guess.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

As far as I know, Lt. J.C. Day of the DPD never uttered a word while parading around holding the rifle over his head at 6:15 PM on November 22. Day was never interviewed by the press. He merely carried the gun in silence.

As I said in one of my forum posts recently, I don't think very many people at the DPD had an up-close look at the rifle at all on Day #1. Lt. Day, in fact, *might* have been the only person who had a really good look at it (and perhaps Captain Fritz too, who we can see via Tom Alyea's film was examining the gun up close in the TSBD).

But it was Lt. Day who took possession of the gun inside the TSBD, and it was Day who carried it out of the building, and it was Day who then locked it up in a lock box at City Hall for a few hours while he went back to the Depository to take pictures.

Lieutenant Day then went back to City Hall and started examining the rifle in greater detail. Then, close to midnight, he was told to stop working on the rifle and to turn it over to Vincent Drain of the FBI, which he did.

Ergo, the initial incorrect "Mauser" reports coming from Dallas County Deputies Weitzman and Boone became the "facts" as far as many people (and reporters thirsty for details) were concerned.

MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

I've seen a couple clips of the rifle traveling through the DPD, but never see the whole thing like I wish we did. When asked what kind of rifle it was, Day said, "6.5, apparently made in Italy 1940".

I [saw] it aired, and heard him say it on a CNN show called "The Assassination of President Kennedy" on 11-21-13.

I recorded it and just watched it again.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I don't recall that clip with Lt. Day saying something to the press. I wonder if I have it in my video collection? I'm not sure, but I'm sure going to look for it. Thanks, Michael. And my apologies for saying that Lt. Day never spoke to the press in the DPD corridors. I guess you just proved me wrong in that regard. Thank you.

MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

Why that is not included in the clips of this historic event, I do not understand.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Perhaps it is buried in my collection someplace. I don't know. But thanks for the info nonetheless.

PAT SPEER SAID:

I watched the CNN program he [Michael G.] mentions, and can verify that the quote of Day is accurate.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, Pat.

I just did a little digging into my video archives and verified for myself that at least one TV network (CBS) was most definitely identifying the assassination weapon as a 6.5-millimeter Italian rifle as of approximately 7:00 PM (Dallas time) on Friday, November 22nd.

In the video clip below, which was aired live on CBS-TV on the evening of 11/22/63, Dan Rather of CBS News clearly calls the rifle being held up by Lt. J.C. Day an "Italian 6.5-millimeter" gun. We can't hear Lt. Day say anything; we only hear Rather's narration in this clip, but it is clear from the video that Lt. Day definitely is speaking to the members of the press at the crowded City Hall. He's probably identifying the rifle in just the manner confirmed by Michael Giampaolo and Pat Speer:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-591.html#An-Italian-Gun

So the conspiracy theorists who continue to say that everybody on radio or television was labelling the murder weapon as a Mauser all the way through Day 1 (November 22nd) are proven wrong (just as I was proven wrong on this issue too) by the above video alone. And if CBS was reporting that the assassination weapon was a 6.5mm. Italian rifle during the evening of November 22nd, you can bet that most of the other TV and radio networks were reporting the very same thing at that same time as well.

Thanks again to Michael and Pat. Your confirmation of Lt. Day's statements in the 2013 CNN program prompted me to dig further myself. And the digging paid off. Much obliged.

GARY MACK SAID:

David,

The original KRLD-TV video tape of Day holding the rifle is in The Sixth Floor Museum's permanent collection and it has been licensed to many documentaries over the years. The audio track includes Day's first words which were, "There's no name on it." From there, going by memory, he says, "6.5mm, made in Italy, 1940."

As Day said in his museum's oral history, he was taking the rifle back to his office and held it overhead so reporters couldn't touch it. As the clock shows, the scene happened at 6:16pm on Friday and both AP and UPI wire services soon fed his words around the world.

Boone and Weitzman, who both worked for the Sheriff's Department, never saw the rifle again after they or it left the TSBD. One of the two reporters present, either Tom Alyea/WFAA-TV or Kent Biffle/Dallas Morning News, presumably reported the ID information to their offices, so that must be how the Mauser story started.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, Gary.

GARY MACK SAID:

By the way, the video of Day was not shown live; the scene was recorded at KRLD and fed to CBS soon thereafter for Rather to narrate on the network.

Gary

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yes, I know. It's obvious that Dan Rather isn't narrating a LIVE scene taking place at Dallas City Hall. That's why I phrased a portion of my forum post in this manner (knowing full well that the clock on the wall behind Lieutenant Day was showing a time of 6:16):

"CBS was most definitely identifying the assassination weapon as a 6.5-millimeter Italian rifle as of approximately 7:00 PM (Dallas time) on Friday, November 22nd."

Thanks.

DVP

January 2014

Dave

Listen VERY closely. I know it is difficult for you to do but, make an effort.

I do not believe a Mauser rifle was found on the 6th floor. HOWEVER, the rifle Weitzman mistook the 6.5mm Carcano for was a 7.65mm Mauser. The 7.65mm Mauser just happens to be known worldwide as the 7.65mm ARGENTINE MAUSER.

Here is how Weitzman got fooled:

standard.jpg

6.5x52mm M91/38 Carcano short rifle

13828609_1.jpg?v=8CF5F36831D2F90

7.65x53mm Model 1891 Argentine Mauser carbine

P.S.

At no time did I say these newsmen had examined the rifle themselves. Why James has not banned your instigating butt is beyond me.

P.P.S.

And that goes double for your buddy Dunkel.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme

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Earth to Kenneth!.....

In my above audio clip, Alyea was speaking in 1993, yes. But he was talking about the things that happened in 1963, not 1993.

(Is it even possible that it was actually necessary for me to type out that last sentence? I guess so, because Ken is here. Incredible.)

And the DCA film shows a shotgun, not a Mauser rifle. It's no doubt a shotgun owned by the DPD.

And Weitzman has repeatedly said his initial IDing of the rifle as a Mauser was an "honest mistake".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G04azA5NFoo

""(Is it even possible that it was actually necessary for me to type out that last sentence? I guess so, because Ken is here. Incredible.)"

Yes, it may be hard for you to believe it, since you don't accept anything except from the Warren Report, but I did realize he was making the statement in 93 about his film in 63. A man that runs a sporting goods shop that sells rifles and is considered an expert on firearms, when specifically called upon to make an ID of a rifle that is suspected of being the one used to shoot at a president, does not make an "honest mistake". The only mistake that was made was that he was threatened of his job and his life if he can't figure out that he made an 'honest mistake'. See Roger Craig.

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I do not believe a Mauser rifle was found on the 6th floor. HOWEVER, the rifle Weitzman mistook the 6.5mm Carcano for was a 7.65mm Mauser. The 7.65mm Mauser just happens to be known worldwide as the 7.65mm ARGENTINE MAUSER.

Here is how Weitzman got fooled...

Good. Then we're in complete agreement that Weitzman "got fooled". Excellent. He thought the Carcano looked like a 7.65 Mauser. And even you agree that Weitzman was "fooled". So what do we have to argue about here? Looks like we're in complete agreement.

You're closer to joining the LN ranks than you think, Bob. Nice job. Because from my experience with Internet CTers, you're in the vast minority of CTers who actually have had the guts to admit that Seymour Weitzman "got fooled". I don't think I've talked to one other Internet CTer in the last five years who thinks there WASN'T a Mauser found on the sixth floor (except maybe Pat Speer). Pat, do you think a Mauser was found? I can't remember your position on that.

Anyway, thanks, Bob Prudhomme, for acknowledging the obvious -- "Weitzman got fooled".

Mauser-Carcano-Comparison.jpg

Edited by David Von Pein

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I do not believe a Mauser rifle was found on the 6th floor. HOWEVER, the rifle Weitzman mistook the 6.5mm Carcano for was a 7.65mm Mauser. The 7.65mm Mauser just happens to be known worldwide as the 7.65mm ARGENTINE MAUSER.

Here is how Weitzman got fooled...

Good. Then we're in complete agreement that Weitzman "got fooled". He thought the Carcano looked like a 7.65 Mauser. And even you agree that Weitzman was "fooled". So what do we have to argue about here? Looks like we're in complete agreement.

You're closer to joining the LN ranks than you think, Bob. Nice job.

The only argument I ever had with anyone is that although the 7.65mm Argentine Mauser was manufactured primarily in Germany, it was incorrect for anyone to call a Mauser of this calibre a "German" Mauser. The only two German Mausers were the 7mm and the 7.92mm.

Not sure I'm closer to joining your ranks, but I do get annoyed at CT's who don't do their homework and end up supporting impossible theories.

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So, Bob P., you actually think Ron Reiland and Bob Clark examined the rifle THEMSELVES before reporting that an "Argentine" Mauser had been found in the Depository?

Neither one of those men examined the rifle for themselves. They were merely repeating the incorrect information they received from another source (or sources).

When the facts were finally confirmed via the DPD about what type of rifle it was (at approximately 6:16 PM CST on 11/22/63, as this CBS-TV footage proves), everyone then began reporting it correctly as an "Italian" rifle. The words "Mannlicher-Carcano" weren't heard until the afternoon of November 23rd, however.

=============================

GARY MACK SAID [AT 12:16 PM EDT ON 5/25/2015, VIA E-MAIL]:

Hi Dave,

You are quite correct about Reiland and Clark regarding the "Argentine" weapon. One has to read the AP and UPI wire reports - and I certainly have - to know that they distributed the misinformation early that afternoon. No individuals were named as sources, but they certainly weren't Reiland and Clark who were, respectively, in a news car on the way to Oak Cliff and Parkland when the Carcano was found in the TSBD.

The only newsmen on the TSBD sixth floor when the rifle was found were Tom Alyea of WFAA and Kent Biffle of the Dallas Morning News. Weitzman identified the rifle as a Mauser while it was still on the floor and partially hidden by boxes. Later, when Lt. Day lifted it out for Capt. Fritz, Day found the rifle was an Italian weapon.

Unfortunately, either Alyea or Biffle had already gotten word out to their newsroom and the misidentification went around the world only to be repeated by Reiland and Clark before corrections appeared. Such problems are quite normal in the news profession to this day but inaccurate information gets corrected as soon as possible.

Gary

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thank you, Gary. As always.

DVP

=============================

IN A RELATED DISCUSSION IN EARLY 2014, MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

I noticed Boone, at the mock trial, said he learned the rifle was a Carcano only after the FBI had their hands on it and said it was a Carcano. He did not know Lt. Day was parading the rifle in front of the press telling them it was an Italian rifle made in 1940 on the early evening of 11-22-63...I guess.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

As far as I know, Lt. J.C. Day of the DPD never uttered a word while parading around holding the rifle over his head at 6:15 PM on November 22. Day was never interviewed by the press. He merely carried the gun in silence.

As I said in one of my forum posts recently, I don't think very many people at the DPD had an up-close look at the rifle at all on Day #1. Lt. Day, in fact, *might* have been the only person who had a really good look at it (and perhaps Captain Fritz too, who we can see via Tom Alyea's film was examining the gun up close in the TSBD).

But it was Lt. Day who took possession of the gun inside the TSBD, and it was Day who carried it out of the building, and it was Day who then locked it up in a lock box at City Hall for a few hours while he went back to the Depository to take pictures.

Lieutenant Day then went back to City Hall and started examining the rifle in greater detail. Then, close to midnight, he was told to stop working on the rifle and to turn it over to Vincent Drain of the FBI, which he did.

Ergo, the initial incorrect "Mauser" reports coming from Dallas County Deputies Weitzman and Boone became the "facts" as far as many people (and reporters thirsty for details) were concerned.

MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

I've seen a couple clips of the rifle traveling through the DPD, but never see the whole thing like I wish we did. When asked what kind of rifle it was, Day said, "6.5, apparently made in Italy 1940".

I [saw] it aired, and heard him say it on a CNN show called "The Assassination of President Kennedy" on 11-21-13.

I recorded it and just watched it again.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

I don't recall that clip with Lt. Day saying something to the press. I wonder if I have it in my video collection? I'm not sure, but I'm sure going to look for it. Thanks, Michael. And my apologies for saying that Lt. Day never spoke to the press in the DPD corridors. I guess you just proved me wrong in that regard. Thank you.

MICHAEL GIAMPAOLO SAID:

Why that is not included in the clips of this historic event, I do not understand.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Perhaps it is buried in my collection someplace. I don't know. But thanks for the info nonetheless.

PAT SPEER SAID:

I watched the CNN program he [Michael G.] mentions, and can verify that the quote of Day is accurate.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, Pat.

I just did a little digging into my video archives and verified for myself that at least one TV network (CBS) was most definitely identifying the assassination weapon as a 6.5-millimeter Italian rifle as of approximately 7:00 PM (Dallas time) on Friday, November 22nd.

In the video clip below, which was aired live on CBS-TV on the evening of 11/22/63, Dan Rather of CBS News clearly calls the rifle being held up by Lt. J.C. Day an "Italian 6.5-millimeter" gun. We can't hear Lt. Day say anything; we only hear Rather's narration in this clip, but it is clear from the video that Lt. Day definitely is speaking to the members of the press at the crowded City Hall. He's probably identifying the rifle in just the manner confirmed by Michael Giampaolo and Pat Speer:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2014/01/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-591.html#An-Italian-Gun

So the conspiracy theorists who continue to say that everybody on radio or television was labelling the murder weapon as a Mauser all the way through Day 1 (November 22nd) are proven wrong (just as I was proven wrong on this issue too) by the above video alone. And if CBS was reporting that the assassination weapon was a 6.5mm. Italian rifle during the evening of November 22nd, you can bet that most of the other TV and radio networks were reporting the very same thing at that same time as well.

Thanks again to Michael and Pat. Your confirmation of Lt. Day's statements in the 2013 CNN program prompted me to dig further myself. And the digging paid off. Much obliged.

GARY MACK SAID:

David,

The original KRLD-TV video tape of Day holding the rifle is in The Sixth Floor Museum's permanent collection and it has been licensed to many documentaries over the years. The audio track includes Day's first words which were, "There's no name on it." From there, going by memory, he says, "6.5mm, made in Italy, 1940."

As Day said in his museum's oral history, he was taking the rifle back to his office and held it overhead so reporters couldn't touch it. As the clock shows, the scene happened at 6:16pm on Friday and both AP and UPI wire services soon fed his words around the world.

Boone and Weitzman, who both worked for the Sheriff's Department, never saw the rifle again after they or it left the TSBD. One of the two reporters present, either Tom Alyea/WFAA-TV or Kent Biffle/Dallas Morning News, presumably reported the ID information to their offices, so that must be how the Mauser story started.

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Thanks, Gary.

GARY MACK SAID:

By the way, the video of Day was not shown live; the scene was recorded at KRLD and fed to CBS soon thereafter for Rather to narrate on the network.

Gary

DAVID VON PEIN SAID:

Yes, I know. It's obvious that Dan Rather isn't narrating a LIVE scene taking place at Dallas City Hall. That's why I phrased a portion of my forum post in this manner (knowing full well that the clock on the wall behind Lieutenant Day was showing a time of 6:16):

"CBS was most definitely identifying the assassination weapon as a 6.5-millimeter Italian rifle as of approximately 7:00 PM (Dallas time) on Friday, November 22nd."

Thanks.

DVP

January 2014

Dave

Listen VERY closely. I know it is difficult for you to do but, make an effort.

I do not believe a Mauser rifle was found on the 6th floor. HOWEVER, the rifle Weitzman mistook the 6.5mm Carcano for was a 7.65mm Mauser. The 7.65mm Mauser just happens to be known worldwide as the 7.65mm ARGENTINE MAUSER.

Here is how Weitzman got fooled:

standard.jpg

6.5x52mm M91/38 Carcano short rifle

13828609_1.jpg?v=8CF5F36831D2F90

7.65x53mm Model 1891 Argentine Mauser carbine

P.S.

At no time did I say these newsmen had examined the rifle themselves. Why James has not banned your instigating butt is beyond me.

P.P.S.

And that goes double for your buddy Dunkel.

Note: Robert, this isn't addressed to you. I only used it because it has so many quotes from DVP and Gary Mack, both of which have so many factual mistakes they're almost not worth anyone's time to try to enlighten them.

At no time did I hear anyone on the tapes refer to an Argentine 7.65 Mauser. I did hear Roger Craig state that Weitzman held up the rifle and pointed out the words 7.65 Mauser. GM did say " Weitzman identified the rifle as a Mauser while it was still on the floor and partially hidden by boxes." I'm not sure where he pulled that up from as in the film that Roger Craig is narrating, he clearly states that Weitzman holds up the rifle and points to the words 7.65 Mauser." It is curious to me, that according to DVP, etc that no one in the state of Texas could identify the rifle as a Manlicher Carcano. It had to go to the FBI lab in Washington DC before anyone could identify it. It is also strange that the FBI lab couldn't find any prints on it so it was sent back to Dallas and taken to the mortuary where LHO's body was and then after that visit, miraculously then LHO's palmprint was then found on it. The first time one of the video's show the words Manlicher Carcano was on the afternoon of 11/23 when Walter Cronkite murdered the pronunciation. a Car Chanto?

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