The "Wound Ballistics Of 6.5-mm. Mannlicher-Carcano Ammunition" Report

[Glenn Nall]

nicely put, Dave - some reasoning I can agree with.

"put at least one bullet into JFK's car on 11/22/63"

which is contrary to your assertion that three empty shells virtually proved three shots were fired from the 6th floor, and is exactly the argument I used in rebuttal.

while i still hold that there's no proof putting CE399 in the limo, I feel that you've made great progress and am looking forward to more in our next session.

[Glenn Nall]

The clip wasn't initially found at the scene, was it? That meant manual loading of each round.

This reminds me of another point - that there was a 4th live round in the chamber - and that if this was indeed manually loaded, seems kind of odd to me that a person who'd just shot AT the president 3X would take the time to load the 4th if he was done shooting and needing to be on the 2nd floor for his date with the coke machine in, what, 2 and a half minutes? 15 minutes? can't remember.

Still...

[Robert Prudhomme]

"1) The Carcano clip holds 6 rounds. It is ejected following the firing of the last round. You can't put a partially loaded clip into a Carcano. It must be a full clip (with all 6 rounds). So where did the other 3 rounds go? Surely an assassin would have arrived on scene with a full clip."

This is not actually true. It has been demonstrated that a Carcano clip can be loaded into the rifle with any number of cartridges in it, although more care must be taken when inserting it.

"3) Unlike those on a Springfield, Mouser or M1 Garand rifle, the iron sights on the Carcano are fixed. Nor does the Carcano have a barleycorn-type front sight. This is no small problem. You can't adjust for windage and other factors. Even after zeroing in the sights for the specific task at hand, if they aren't perfectly dialed in (and how could they be?), there's nothing you can do about it. That is to say, they are not adjustable sights. If and when you discover how far "off" they are all you can do is smack them with a hammer a few times and keep your fingers crossed. In polite lingo such sights are "unreliable for precision shooting." In layman's parlance, they are crap."

While the rear sight is fixed on the M91/38 Carcano, allowing no adjustment for elevation or windage, there is room for some windage adjustment on the front "blade" sight. Seen below are front blade sights for the Carcano, and below that, the front sight on a Carcano.

As can be seen, the trapezoidal base of the sight fits into a matching groove on the sight mount and is a very tight fit. By tapping the sight either left or right with a hammer and punch, adjustments can be made for windage. However, this is a tricky business, requiring a skilled hand and the use of a good gun vise at a test range. This task was most times left to the regimental armourer.

As rifle barrels wear (or corrode), back pressure on propellant gases starts to become lost, and the muzzle velocity drops accordingly. As the fixed rear sight on the M91/38 was zeroed at 200 metres, a slower muzzle velocity could start making shots aimed at 200 metres drop short of the aimed target. I'm not sure if they were available for the Carcano but, many military rifles had available replaceable front blade sights in varying heights. As the rifle loses muzzle velocity, simply replace the front blade sight with a shorter model, thus bringing the tip of the barrel up while aiming, and lobbing the bullet in a higher parabola.

In a pinch, a small flat file works, too.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Greg Burnham]

All of the stuff in Greg Burnham's Post #175 becomes meaningless fodder for conspiracy denialists when we realize this fact....

No, David. That is incorrect. It is evidence that is exculpatory in nature.

FACT:

1) Oswald displayed no black eye.

CONCLUSION:

He did not fire the weapon at all or he did not utilize the scope if he did.

FACT:

2) The clip was not ejected from the Carcano after the last round was fired.

CONCLUSION:

a] The clip still contained rounds after the shooting stopped (that were presumably pried out later) and have never been accounted for

b] or the accused assassin arrived in the sniper's nest with a half empty clip to murder the President of the United States and a weapon/ammo malfunction caused a round to jam preventing the clip from ejecting

FACT:

3) It was literally impossible for the accused (or anyone else) to properly utilize the iron sights in order to target the victim with any precision due to the limits of the weapon

CONCLUSION:

a] If that rifle was the actual weapon used to murder President John F Kennedy and it was fired from the so-called "sniper's nest," no matter the identity of the assassin, the outcome was, quite literally, the product of blind luck.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Greg Burnham

[Greg Burnham]

I'm not going to further argue the details. My assertions are based on first hand knowledge as well as information received from experts on the subject. You can split hairs with someone else, Bob.

[David Von Pein]

nicely put, Dave - some reasoning I can agree with.

"put at least one bullet into JFK's car on 11/22/63"

which is contrary to your assertion that three empty shells virtually proved three shots were fired from the 6th floor, and is exactly the argument I used in rebuttal.

while i still hold that there's no proof putting CE399 in the limo, I feel that you've made great progress and am looking forward to more in our next session.

Glenn,

I don't think my remark about "at least one bullet" being put into JFK's car is "contrary" to my additional thinking about three shots coming from the Sniper's Nest (and all from LHO's rifle, as proven by those three shells themselves).

I worded that statement the way I did in that post -- "put at least one bullet into JFK's car on 11/22/63" -- because I knew I would get slapped in the face by CTers if I even DARED say that TWO bullets positively were fired into the limousine. (So I decided to tack on the stuff about CE399 at the end of that post, after the prefacing remark of "...And when we sensibly talk about CE399".)

But from the limited POV of Bullets being found inside the limousine that can be tied to the C2766 rifle, I am, of course, forced to stop at just ONE bullet POSITIVELY being pumped into the car by that rifle, because I believe Oswald's first shot missed the whole car and therefore could not be recovered at all, and CE399 was found outside the automobile--in the hospital.

The CE567/569 fragments are devastating blows to the CTers who continue to insist that NO SHOTS whatsoever were fired from the C2766 rifle on Nov. 22. What those CTers are therefore forced to do is what they do with CE399 as well --- they'll just pretend those two front-seat bullet fragments were planted (or that the "real" fragments--from a different rifle--were disposed of and then replaced with two banged-all-to-hell fragments fired from Oswald's rifle).

Frankly, the "Everything's Fake In This Case" refrain has been laughably out of tune for decades (as far as I'm concerned anyway). It's just a crutch and a cop-out for CTers to use to try and--yet again--exonerate Mr. Oswald. (IMHO.)

Edited June 26, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

I'm not going to further argue the details. My assertions are based on first hand knowledge as well as information received from experts on the subject. You can split hairs with someone else, Bob.

And that's why I left your forum, Greg. You know it all after talking to that BS'er Hemming, and no one can tell you anything now.

[Glenn Nall]

"But from the limited POV of Bullets being found inside the limousine that can be tied to the C2766 rifle, ---"

which is what's known as proof, as opposed to not proven

"---I am, of course, forced to stop at just ONE bullet POSITIVELY being pumped into the car by that rifle, because I believe Oswald's first shot missed the whole car and therefore could not be recovered at all, and CE399 was found outside the automobile--in the hospital."

all of this being my point exactly, of course.

unless you can tell me how a bullet that could not be recovered at all can be shown to have been POSITIVELY shot AT the limo from C2766, then you cannot say that the three shells POSITIVELY contained the bullets that are found in the limo. (aside from CE399)

all you did was inadvertently agree with logic. i know it was an accident, but you did it.

and THIS CTer has never once implied that he thinks everything is fake. I'm of a minimalist philosophy - the fewer moving parts, the more likely.

[Pat Speer]

"hit the tree" ... ? what have I missed? first I've heard of any tree getting hit (i saw where some filmmakers 'proved' a shot from 6th floor hit the green (now) street light right outside the window by finding a bullet hole in it - did ya'll see that...?)

what's the evidence of a tree getting shot?

i agree, tho, that that theory is less nuts the most nutters' theories.

In his 1992 book Case Closed, Gerald Posner proposed that the first shot hit the tree, was stripped of its jacket, and continued on down the street to wound Tague. Posner's book was widely praised by the mainstream media. His theory has since been repeated in TV shows, articles, and hundreds if not thousands of posts online.

One of the many problems with this theory, as I pointed out, is that the tree was not blocking Kennedy when Posner claims the first shot was fired.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Pat Speer

[Ian Lloyd]

Working entirely from memory here...Didn't Tom Purvis conclude that a shot did strike a tree limb, causing the bullet to tumble and enter JFK's back backwards? I believe he corresponded with an FBI examiner(?), Heidberger(?), on this?

[David Von Pein]

Unless you can tell me how a bullet that could not be recovered at all can be shown to have been POSITIVELY shot AT the limo from C2766, then you cannot say that the three shells POSITIVELY contained the bullets that are found in the limo. (aside from CE399)

Shouldn't just plain ordinary common sense and deductive reasoning spell out the answer here, Glenn? It sure does for me.

Why can't any conspiracy theorist manage to perform this fourth-grade math? ....

1.) A bullet from Rifle C2766 (split in two parts) was recovered in the President's car.

2.) A whole bullet from Rifle C2766 was found in Parkland Hospital (which is where the two limo victims were taken right after the shooting occurred). [Let the booing and hissing from the "Planted Bullet" brigade begin.]

3.) Three spent bullet shell casings from Rifle C2766 were found on the sixth floor of the Book Depository.

4.) No whole bullets were recovered from the bodies of either of the two victims. (Only tiny fragments were recovered from Kennedy's and Connally's bodies.)

5.) The enormous majority of the earwitnesses heard exactly THREE shots being fired at the Presidential motorcade in Dealey Plaza.

Therefore, given the above starting points, please explain to me why I should NOT conclude that ALL of the shots fired on 11/22/63 (three in number) came from the C2766 Mannlicher-Carcano rifle?

Edited June 26, 2015 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

...and THIS CTer has never once implied that he thinks everything is fake.

Good. Then Oswald's almost certainly guilty, isn't he? (Under such conditions, how could he not be?)

To use your own words....

...all you did was inadvertently agree with logic. I know it was an accident, but you did it.

Edited June 26, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

"hit the tree" ... ? what have I missed? first I've heard of any tree getting hit (i saw where some filmmakers 'proved' a shot from 6th floor hit the green (now) street light right outside the window by finding a bullet hole in it - did ya'll see that...?)

what's the evidence of a tree getting shot?

i agree, tho, that that theory is less nuts the most nutters' theories.

In his 1992 book Case Closed, Gerald Posner proposed that the first shot hit the tree, was stripped of its jacket, and continued on down the street to wound Tague. Posner's book was widely praised by the mainstream media. His theory has since been repeated in TV shows, articles, and hundreds if not thousands of posts online.

One of the many problems with this theory, as I pointed out, is that the tree was not blocking Kennedy when Posner claims the first shot was fired.

The other problem with Posner's theory is that, in tests, Carcano FMJ bullets reputedly went through 48" of pine lumber without deformation. And we are supposed to believe that a Carcano FMJ bullet had its jacket stripped from it after hitting a tree branch? Or a skull?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Working entirely from memory here...Didn't Tom Purvis conclude that a shot did strike a tree limb, causing the bullet to tumble and enter JFK's back backwards? I believe he corresponded with an FBI examiner(?), Heidberger(?), on this?

Yes, that was one of Purvis's theories, ridiculous as it was. Just think what the odds are that a bullet tumbling end over end should happen to, just at the moment of entry into JFK's back, present the base of the bullet forward. Of course, this bullet would have to stop tumbling once it contacted JFK's skin, or it would continue to tumble as it was entering his back, and leave a large messy entrance wound.

File this one under "B" for bullsh*t.

[Kenneth Drew]

nicely put, Dave - some reasoning I can agree with.

"put at least one bullet into JFK's car on 11/22/63"

which is contrary to your assertion that three empty shells virtually proved three shots were fired from the 6th floor, and is exactly the argument I used in rebuttal.

while i still hold that there's no proof putting CE399 in the limo, I feel that you've made great progress and am looking forward to more in our next session.

Glenn,

I don't think my remark about "at least one bullet" being put into JFK's car is "contrary" to my additional thinking about three shots coming from the Sniper's Nest (and all from LHO's rifle, as proven by those three shells themselves).

I worded that statement the way I did in that post -- "put at least one bullet into JFK's car on 11/22/63" -- because I knew I would get slapped in the face by CTers if I even DARED say that TWO bullets positively were fired into the limousine. (So I decided to tack on the stuff about CE399 at the end of that post, after the prefacing remark of "...And when we sensibly talk about CE399".)

But from the limited POV of Bullets being found inside the limousine that can be tied to the C2766 rifle, I am, of course, forced to stop at just ONE bullet POSITIVELY being pumped into the car by that rifle, because I believe Oswald's first shot missed the whole car and therefore could not be recovered at all, and CE399 was found outside the automobile--in the hospital.

The CE567/569 fragments are devastating blows to the CTers who continue to insist that NO SHOTS whatsoever were fired from the C2766 rifle on Nov. 22. What those CTers are therefore forced to do is what they do with CE399 as well --- they'll just pretend those two front-seat bullet fragments were planted (or that the "real" fragments--from a different rifle--were disposed of and then replaced with two banged-all-to-hell fragments fired from Oswald's rifle).

Frankly, the "Everything's Fake In This Case" refrain has been laughably out of tune for decades (as far as I'm concerned anyway). It's just a crutch and a cop-out for CTers to use to try and--yet again--exonerate Mr. Oswald. (IMHO.)

Sorry DVP but your statement "put at least one bullet into JFK's car on 11/22/63" is not more accurate than any other that attempts to put a bullet from 2766 in the limo. Just didn't happen. There is not and never has been any proof that any piece of a bullet was fired in that weapon on that day. Quit making up stuff.