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David Von Pein

Harold Weisberg And Shots From The Sixth Floor

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Unfortunately, for whom I don't know, yes, I don't believe them. I'm a hunter (and I suppose killer) from Vermont and the US Army. If my bullets (and most were jacketed) had passed through the deer without expanding or tumbling, I'd have eaten a lot less venison. It's nonsense. If I (and 58,000 others in VietNam) had depended on that sort of thinking, we'd have figured out a way to convey to our comrades how to modify our ammo so it would have a lethal effect on our enemy. Thankfully, we didn't need to do that. I don't know what the motivation was of the authors of that segment was, but I do know that the Discovery Channel has been accused of favoring the government position on this issue (for what it's worth, not much). Don't argue ammo with me, won't work.

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DVP is the busiest man out of the Lone-Nut-xxxxx-factory. Several days ago such a government sponsored factory was discovered in Russia. Agenda: to make Putin appear a hero and smear all other politicians on twitter, facebook and hundreds of blogs and forums...a building was located, where the sole job of dozens of employees is to sit in front of there government computers and trolling all day long...they are well paid for Russian conditions: 800 Euro a month...

Though I don't no where the Lone-Nut-xxxxx-Factory in the US is located, I know were the Lone-Nut-Headquarters are. It is called 6th floor museum.

KK

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DVP,

Tell it as you believe it.

I ask only that when you parrot the Warren Report, you acknowledge that you're doing so.

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DVP,

Tell it as you believe it.

I ask only that when you parrot the Warren Report, you acknowledge that you're doing so.

And so you think that when I say something to the effect of "I think LHO acted alone", it's not already obvious to everybody here that I'm saying something that aligns with the Warren Commission's findings?

You think that I should be required to constantly "acknowledge" that obvious alignment?

That's a strange request, Jon. Where did you come up with that one? And why?

Edited by David Von Pein

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DVP is not allone. Here is another WCR parrot.

quote:

George H.W. Bush’s Eulogy for Gerald R. Ford

The New York Times
Published: January 2, 2007

Following is the transcript of the eulogy for former President Gerald R. Ford delivered today by former President George H.W. Bush in Washington, as recorded by The New York Times.

EXCERPT…

After a deluded gunman assassinated President Kennedy, our nation turned to Gerald Ford and a select handful of others to make sense of that madness. And the conspiracy theorists can say what they will, but the Warren Commission report will always have the final definitive say on this tragic matter. Why? Because Jerry Ford put his name on it and Jerry Ford’s word was always good.

close quote

But wait...there is a little difference between DVP and Poppy Bush: Poppy Bush is grinning, when he says: "After a deluded gunman assassinated President Kennedy..." here

KK

Edited by Karl Kinaski

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DVP,

Tell it as you believe it.

I ask only that when you parrot the Warren Report, you acknowledge that you're doing so.

David...

One thing I've never seen you do is to describe Oswald's PLAN... The WCR tells us that he did very little advanced planning...

This is my presentation of te WCR evidence related to his "PLAN" of being at any window in the TSBD with a rifle and ready to shoot...

How does your telling of the WCR scenario go David?

DJ

http://www.ctka.net/2014/The%20evidence%20is%20the%20conspiracy.html

Let's assume for the sake of this discussion that Oswald was indeed at the SE 6th floor window at 12:30, and shots from there are fired by him, AND that he planned to kill JFK with the Mannlicher Carcano rifle. He surely could not have killed JFK with a rifle that was not there in the first place. Oswald has a few items of information he MUST have in order to pull this off, the most important being the knowledge that the motorcade and JFK's limo would pass within shooting distance of the building. Where would he get such information, and what would that info say specifically?

Commission Exhibit 1362 is the Nov 19th Dallas Times Herald article revealing the route the motorcade would take... "The motorcade will pass thru downtown on Harwood and then west on Main, turning back to Elm at Houston and then out Stemmons Freeway to the Trade Mart" AHA! Oswald, if he read or was aware of this article would now know that the motorcade would pass directly beneath the TSBD... in essence the motorcade was bringing JFK to his doorstep... Good thing he decided to take the lower paying TSBD job in October, right?

This is TUESDAY Nov 19th. The article prefaces with the fact that the formal announcement of the trip was made in Washington DC at 4pm... Could Oswald the Lone Nut have known that JFK would pass by the TSBD before that? I don't see how. Security according to Chief Curry was not even planned until Tuesday the 19th. This must have been the evening edition of the paper.

Is there any evidence from anyone in the building or anyone close to Oswald that he knew about the motorcade route that day?

According to Marina, on the night before the assassination, she asked him about Kennedy's upcoming visit the next day. Oswald seemed totally in the dark about when or where the motorcade would pass. (WC Vol. 18, p. 638)

Junior Jarman told the Commission that he did not learn about the motorcade passing in front of the Depository until that morning at about 9 AM. About an hour later, Oswald was standing near a window looking out at the gathering crowd. He asked Jarman what the people were there for. After Jarman told him, he asked which way the motorcade was coming. Which reveals, unlike the Commission assumption, that Oswald did not read the November 19th Times Herald (WC Vol. 3, p. 201).

Between the evening of Nov 19th and Thursday Nov 21 Oswald decides to get to the home of Ruth and Michael Paine to get his rifle out of the garage and bring it to work on Friday so he can do the deed. Does he make sure to ask Texas School Book Depository colleague Wesley Frazier for a ride home that day? For if he doesn't get home by Thursday night how can he get the rifle to work Friday?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, we were standing like I said at the four-headed table about half as large as this, not, quite half as large, but anyway I was standing there getting the orders in and he said, "Could I ride home with you this afternoon?"

And I said, "Sure. You know, like I told you, you can go home with me any time you want to, like I say anytime you want to go see your wife that is all right with me."

Good thing Wesley was so accommodating... Asking Thursday for a ride home, a ride that would make or break his plan to kill JFK Friday seems cutting it a bit close... And he'd have to bring that paper bag he made to hold/hide the rifle with him... yet the man who sits by the paper dispenser never leaves his desk, eats his lunch at his desk and testifies to not being away from that area... yet somehow Oswald accomplishes this construction project with no one seeing him do it... and gets it home that Thursday in the car with Wesley... maybe hidden in his pants, or shirt, or jacket, or sweater, maybe???

Marina and Ruth are very surprised to see Oswald on that Thursday as he usually gives them fair warning...

Mr. JENNER - Let's proceed with the 21st. Did anything occur on the 21st with respect to Lee Harvey Oswald, that is a Thursday?

Mrs. PAINE - I arrived home from grocery shopping around 5:30, and he was on the front lawn. I was surprised to see him.

Mr. JENNER - You had no advance notice?

Mrs. PAINE - I had no advance notice and he had never before come without asking whether he could.

Mr. JENNER - Never before had he come to your home in that form without asking your permission to come?

Mrs. PAINE - Without asking permission; that is right.

It is here we are treated to Ruth Paine's story about the garage door and light being left on... she never sees Oswald in the garage, never hears him... and even goes on to tell reporters:

Mrs. PAINE - I said I did not see how he could have taken the gun from the garage without my knowing it.

As noted researcher Carol Hewett pointed out, evidently Ruth did not know that Marina said Lee was with her that night in her room and fell asleep. Yet somehow, he got into the garage, into the blanket, disassembled the rifle, placed it in the paper bag and made it ready for his leaving the following morning... if the OSWALD PLAN to kill JFK can even occur... maybe all this happened in the morning?

Mr. JENNER - You heard no moving about on his part prior to your awakening?

Mrs. PAINE - No moving about on his part at all when I looked when I awoke.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He then stopped talking and sat down and watched television and then went to bed. I went to bed later. It was about 9 o'clock when he went to sleep. I went to sleep about 11:30. But it seemed to me that he was not really asleep. But I didn't talk to him.

In the morning he got up, said goodbye, and left, and that I shouldn't get up--as always, I did not get up to prepare breakfast. This was quite usual.

So the entire household was awake at 9pm when Oswald goes to sleep... and there is no mention of the time or sounds involved in what Oswald needed to do to get his 40" rifle into that bag...

But he must have at some point as he walks to the Frazier's with this large bag in his possession... which we come to learn must be at least 34" long to hold the largest piece of the broken down rifle. Also in this bag are the clip, the ammo, the scope and the barrel with firing mechanism... Metal and wood adding up to 7.5 lbs, with nothing to keep it from banging into itself, tearing this bag, or anything else.

Surely the people at the Frazier household see this bag? And they do and testify to it...

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; the top with just a little bit sticking up. You know just like you grab something like that.

Mr. BALL. And he was grabbing it with his right hand at the top of the package and the package almost touched the ground?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

(this 5'9" man holding his arm at his side carrying the bag, and this 34" piece did not touch the ground...ok)

...

Mr. BALL. Now, was the length of it any similar, anywhere near similar?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, it wasn't that long, I mean it was folded down at the top as I told you. It definitely wasn't that long.

...

Mrs. RANDLE. I measured 27" last time.

Mr. BALL. You measured 27" once before?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Hmmm... maybe she didn't get a good look... what does Wesley say about this bag?

Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long.

So it appears that Oswald is able to carry a 34"-40" rifle in a bag quite a bit smaller... yet measurements can be deceiving... maybe they underestimated; they MUST HAVE since the Lone Nut Oswald did get the rifle from the garage; where it had never been seen by anyone in the house; to the TSBD on the morning of the 22nd in the back seat of Wesley's car. And was able to tuck this rifle under his arm and carry it into the TSBD... Did anyone see Oswald when he arrived that morning?

One man, Edward Shields, claims he is told by his "friends" that they see Wesley drop Oswald off at the back door... yet this is 2nd hand hearsay and virtually impossible to prove... Luckily Mr. Dougherty was not only at the back entrance when Oswald arrives, but see whether or not anything is in his hands at the time...

After the same question about Oswald is asked and answered a number of times we finally have as evidence:

Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.

Is there anyone other than Wesley and his sister that claims they see Oswald with a package, bag, rifle or anything in his hands that morning? Nope. Yet he MUST HAVE since his plan was to kill JFK as he passed by later that day... and we get back now to the timing from that day.

After slipping by everyone with the package he stows it... where? Where does Oswald place this 27 to 40 inch bag with rifle parts in it so that it is undisturbed and available when he is ready to execute his plan. Maybe behind some boxes on the 6th floor? Since he knows there is work being done up there and the place is in disarray, no one would notice it... Maybe the 1st floor domino room? A hall closet? Well, no matter, it had to have been somewhere since this same rifle (supposedly) is found on the 6th floor, fully assembled at 1:22pm.

Back now to his knowledge of the motorcade route and the timing. What information is available to this Lone Nut master planner of JFK's death as to WHEN the motorcade would pass by the TSBD? He'd have to know this to at least be looking out a window at the time so as to take a shot... right?

We come to find that Secret Service agent Winston Lawson tells Chief Curry that the luncheon was to begin at 12:15... that the plane was to land at 11:30 and after a 45 min motorcade thru Dallas, arrive at the Trade Mart. VIP invitations had been sent and received which stated the Luncheon was to start at 12 NOON.

--------------------

The luncheon invitation and the rest of the essay is at ctka.net at the link above...

My first question would be whether you see a conflict in his waiting until Thursday afternoon to ask Wesley for a ride home that night...

Not too much concern over this vital element of the plan.... taking a bus back to work with a rifle in a bag would have been tough...

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David J.,

IMO, Oswald was merely feigning ignorance when he spoke to James Jarman (and I think maybe even Harold Norman) about the motorcade route on the morning of November 22. LHO knew darn well what route the motorcade was going to take when he talked with Jarman.

As for knowing the EXACT time when JFK would pass the building ..... Well, nobody could have known the precise time. But Oswald surely knew it would have been around noon or shortly after noon. And I think the overall weight of the testimony indicates that Oswald WAS on the sixth floor from noon forward, which means he would have been up there in (or near) his sniper's perch in plenty of time.

Yes, CTers can utilize Carolyn Arnold's statements. But her account is tainted in numerous ways. And if you discard Arnold, who else do you have to keep LHO off of the sixth floor between 12:00 and 12:30? Is there anyone else? Eddie Piper won't do it. Neither will Shelley.

I think it's also important to remember that Oswald was very likely quite literally winging it for most of the day on November 22. There were so many variables and so many things that could have spelled doom for his plan to kill the President, things that he could not possibly have had control over -- like people staying on the sixth floor to watch the parade (which could have easily happened, but didn't). Plus the weather. If it kept raining, the bubble would have been on the car, making a kill shot much more problematic and uncertain.

So I believe a lot of "winging it" and "flying by the seat of his pants" was going on with Lee Oswald that whole day.

I've always said that Oswald's mindset from the beginning of the day on 11/22/63 was likely this one:

If I get a good chance to shoot at Kennedy today from my workplace, I'll take it. If I don't, so be it.

Edited by David Von Pein

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edit

Edited by Karl Kinaski

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Dale Myers lost faith in Euins after the Lost Bullet pantomime.

I4WPvye.png

_______________________________________________________________________

Last paragraph is particularly pertinent.

In a case of this magnitude there is far more than just a liberal dose of self importance mixed into the equation.

The Jackala.

http://www.ilovetexasphoto.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/01102613JACKSONbob0032-940x940.jpg

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Only a person who wants to ignore or deliberately mangle and misrepresent ALL of the following physical evidence and eyewitnesses can possibly believe that no shots at all came from the sixth floor of the TSBD:

1.) The first-day (11/22/63) interviews and affidavits and statements from several eyewitnesses, in which various witnesses told their story about having seen a gunman (or a gun) in the southeast window on the sixth floor of the Book Depository.

These witnesses include: Howard Brennan, Amos Euins, Robert Jackson, and Mal Couch (and a couple of others). And most (if not all) of these people told their eyewitness accounts within literally hours of the shooting (or even less), either via written affidavits that they filled out at the Dallas Sheriff's Department, or by way of live radio interviews, such as WFAA-TV cameraman Mal Couch's live report that was broadcast on WFAA-Radio very shortly after the assassination on 11/22/63 (which can be heard below).

The above Mal Couch interview, all by itself, totally destroys Weisberg's fantasy (or anyone else's similar fantasy theory) about NO SHOTS coming from the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building. Couch's statement on live Dallas radio on the very day of the assassination has Couch confirming (for all time) that he actually saw a rifle being pulled in from an upper floor of the TSBD.

Couch said it was the "fifth or sixth floor" of the Depository, and he also said this: "There were people underneath the rifle, who looked up to see where the shots had come from."

And that can mean only one thing: Mal Couch had to have seen the rifle protruding from the SIXTH floor of the building, because the people he saw "underneath the rifle" were on the fifth floor, a fact that is confirmed by

Tom Dillard's photograph.

Therefore, in order to believe (as Weisberg believed) that no shots were fired from the sixth floor at all, you'd have to believe in one of these two things (both of which stretch reasonable thinking to the breaking point):

Mal Couch was either a xxxx or was mistaken when he said that he saw a rifle being pulled back into the sixth-floor window.

Or:

The person who was sticking a rifle out of the sixth-floor window was not really using his rifle as an assassination weapon that day -- the gunman was merely pointing it out the window as a prop or just for "show", but he didn't really fire any shots with that rifle.

Both of the options above, of course, are just plain silly.

If you believe Harold Norman you must remember him being asked about whether or not he leaned out and looked up at the floor above, right?

In case you forgot the man himself said he did no such thing, so either he or anyone saying otherwise is a xxxx namely Couch, Jackson and FBI man who put that idea into the questioner's head.

Mr. BALL. I have one question.

On the 26th of November, an FBI agent named Kreutzer advises us in a report that he talked to you. Do you remember that?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You remember?

Mr. NORMAN. Yes; I remember talking to him. I don't know his name.

Mr. BALL. He reports that you told him that you heard a shot and that you stuck your head from the window and looked upward toward the roof but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from above you. Did you tell him that?

Mr. NORMAN. I don't recall telling him that.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever put your head out the window?

Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; I don't remember ever putting my head out the window.

What are the odds that Kreutzer interviewed Jackson and/or Couch too?

Couch reacted to Jackson's shout so the odds are like Dillard and Underwood, he saw nothing since Bob claimed it was being pulled back in the window when he saw it, before he gave the word it was gone, conveniently impossible to prove.

Look. Up in the sky. Is it a bird? Oh too late, you missed it.

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DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Mr. Norman, you have testified that you heard sounds of objects, three objects, hitting the floor above you. Is that correct?

HAROLD NORMAN: Yes, sir.

DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Mr. Norman, please describe to the best of your ability the sounds you heard?

HAROLD NORMAN: Clink, clink, clink.

DEFENSE ATTORNEY: When you heard these sounds, did you reach a conclusion as to what made them?

HAROLD NORMAN: Yes, sir.

DEFENSE ATTORNEY: What conclusion did you reach?

HAROLD NORMAN: I thought they were made by rifle shells?

DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Mr. Norman, to the best of your knowledge, did you ever previously hear rifle shells hitting the floor over your head?

HAROLD NORMAN: No, sir.

DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Mr. Norman, then why did you think the three "clink, clink, clink" noises you hear were made by rifle shells?

HAROLD NORMAN: I just assumed that's what they were.

DVP:

Norman is a lousy witness. All the way around. Use him as the foundation for your argument, if you wish. He's a weak foundation. But you know this.

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Ok...so ASSUMING Oswald knows the parade route...and ASSUMING he's already planned to shoot from the southeast corner window of the 6th floor of the TSBD...

...the invitations for the luncheon at the Trade Mart said it would begin at 12 noon. The DPD was expecting JFK to arrive by 12:15.

But something happened on the 6th floor. Bonnie Ray Williams testified that he ate his lunch in front of the windows on the 6th floor. Bonnie Ray Williams testified that no one else was on the 6th floor of the TSBD while he ate his lunch there. Bonnie Ray Williams testified that he may have been there as late as 12:15 pm.

Now, I'm not usually any more prone to speculate than any other man. BUT if Oswald's plan was to set up a sniper's nest in the window, and if he had to assemble the broken-down rifle before he could kill anyone...wouldn't he be rather antsy about Williams' presence on the 6th floor, during the exact time period JFK was SCHEDULED to pass by the TSBD?

Mr. BALL. What time do you usually quit for lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. We always quit about 5 minutes before time. During the rush season we quit about 5 minutes before time and washup.
Mr. BALL. Wash your hands and face before you eat lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. That is right.
Mr. BALL. You say quit 5 minutes before time. What is the time?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Five before 12.
Mr. BALL. Did you quit earlier this day?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe this day we quit about maybe 5 or 10 minutes, because all of us were so anxious to see the President--we quit a little ahead of time, so that we could wash up and we wanted to be sure we would not miss anything.

***

Mr. BALL. Where did you eat your lunch?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I ate my lunch--I am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, I believe.
Mr. BALL. Facing on what street?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Facing Elm Street.
Mr. McCLOY. What floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Sixth floor.
Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. DULLES. And you were all alone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler.
Mr. BALL. A two-wheeler truck, you mean?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. I remember sitting on this two-wheeler. By that time, I was through, and I got up and I just left then.

***

Mr. BALL. Did you see anyone else up there that day?

Mr. WILLIAMS. No, I did not.
Mr. BALL. How long did you stay there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I was there from--5, 10, maybe 12 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Finish your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir. No longer than it took me to finish the chicken sandwich.
Mr. BALL. Did you eat the chicken?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, I did.

***

Mr. WILLIAMS. It was after I had left the sixth floor, after I had eaten the chicken sandwich. I finished the chicken sandwich maybe 10 or 15 minutes after 12. I could say approximately what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Approximately what time was it?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Approximately 12:20, maybe.
Mr. BALL. Well, now, when you talked to the FBI on the 23d day of November, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about 12 noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about 3 minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. Now, do you think you stayed longer than 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I am sure I stayed longer than 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. Do you remember telling the FBI you only stayed 3 minutes up there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I do not remember telling them I only stayed 3 minutes.
Mr. BALL. And then on this 14th of January 1964, when you talked to Carter and Griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around 12:05 p.m., and that around 12:30 p.m. you were watching the Presidential parade. Now, do you remember telling them you went down there about 12:05 p.m.?
Mr. WILLIAMS. I remember telling the fellows that--they asked me first, they said, "How long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" I said, "Maybe 5 to 10 minutes, maybe 15 minutes." Just like I said here. I don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was 5 minutes.

*****

So Williams said that when he left the 6th floor, it was around 12:20 pm.

So Ozzie Boy had to be working feverishly to set up the sniper's nest AND assemble the rifle in the next 10 minutes.

IF you believe he did what he's accused of doing.

Seems odd to me that the men on the 5th floor could hear shell casings hitting the floor, but couldn't hear cartons of books being moved around at a hectic pace to set up the sniper's nest.

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So...nobody has a challenge for Williams' testimony?

Nobody can come to a conclusion about what he says?

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I think it is very likely that Oswald, or whomever you think took the shots on the 6th floor, was on the West side of the 6th floor with the rifle while Williams was easting his lunch. There was quite a few places to hide and avoid Williams detection, so I believe when he says nobody else was up there with him that is what he believes, but it certainly does not mean for a fact nobody else was on the 6th floor. Upon him leaving, the shooter might have realized the East window would be a better shot, or perhaps the snipers nest was already completed and they simply returned to it after Williams leaves.

As for Normans testimony, I don't find it unlikely that he could hear the shells. The floors and ceilings were not built like they would be in an office building. They were a single layer of wood, that you could visibly see through in spots. It is not beyond the realm that you could easily hear sounds such as shells being dropped on the single layer of wood above your head. It is certainly probable and I would say likely that you would hear a significant report from a rifle fired above you.

To address DVP's claims earlier in the thread about ear protection and 650 yard shot with that rifle, I have one simple question. Have you ever fired a rifle? First hand experience would tell you two things. 1) Even well trained shooters would have a very difficult time with a 650 yard shot with even a more capable rifle/scope/ammunition. The carcano round was not meant to be a long distance round, but certainly is capable within the distances shot in Dealey Plaza. 2) Rifles in the caliber and grain size of the carcano are LOUD, and even with ear protection will produce a significant report to those firing. I can assure you, a persons ears would certainly be ringing (although not rendered deaf) after three shots without protection.

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I think it is very likely that Oswald, or whomever you think took the shots on the 6th floor, was on the West side of the 6th floor with the rifle while Williams was eating his lunch. There was quite a few places to hide and avoid Williams' detection, so I believe when he says nobody else was up there with him, that is what he believes, but it certainly does not mean for a fact nobody else was on the 6th floor.

You could possibly be correct about Oswald hiding somewhere on the west side of the sixth floor as Bonnie Ray Williams was eating his lunch. I favor the likelihood that Oswald was probably hiding in the Sniper's Nest on the east side of the building during the few minutes Williams was up there eating his lunch, but it's certainly possible that LHO could have secreted himself elsewhere. There were boxes stacked all over the sixth floor.

Upon him [Williams] leaving, the shooter might have realized the East window would be a better shot, or perhaps the sniper's nest was already completed and they simply returned to it after Williams leaves.

I've speculated about a similar scenario myself....

"11:55 AM-12:05 PM (estimated) -- Oswald has the whole sixth floor to himself. This is just prior to Bonnie Ray Williams coming back up to the 6th Floor to eat his lunch. It's my belief that Lee Oswald, during this (approx.) 10-minute time period around noon or shortly after, probably went to the west end of the sixth floor (where he had his rifle hidden in the brown bag).

Oswald unwraps the rifle at the west end of the sixth floor and assembles the rifle at the west end (hence, Arnold Rowland sees a white man with a rifle at the west end of the building at approx. this time, maybe a little later, 12:15 or so, but keep in mind the approximation of all times).

It's quite possible, IMO, that Oswald initially was considering using the WEST-end window as his shooting window. But, for one reason or another, he decided that a window on the EAST end of the sixth floor would better serve his purposes.

Perhaps he was mentally factoring in the angles and trajectories in his head, and possibly realized that an east-end perch would be a better one, especially since the Secret Service agents would all have their backs to him when he began firing, if he decided to wait until after the cars had turned the Elm/Houston corner....which, IMO, Oswald definitely had in his mind to do, due to the pre-arranged way the rifle-rest boxes were constructed (i.e., in a "Rifle Always Pointing West/Southwest" manner).

It's also possible that, as Oswald mulled over potential shooting locations, he realized that a goodly number of boxes were already down on the east end of the 6th Floor, which would make constructing a makeshift "Nest" all the easier for him.

Now, I cannot fully explain why Oswald wanted to take the empty paper bag WITH HIM to the east end from the west end via this scenario I'm laying out here....but I've got to assume (naturally) that he DID do just that after assembling the rifle on the west end.

Perhaps--just perhaps--Oswald had it in his mind that he would be able to re-insert the weapon back into that bag and, just maybe, get the incriminating rifle out of the building the same way he smuggled it in--in the brown paper package that supposedly contained those never-found "curtain rods".

Yes, that last part is fairly weak...I'll admit that. I don't much like that idea either. For, Oswald would surely have known that he wouldn't have the time (or want to take time) to dismantle the rifle AFTER shooting at the President.

But, then too, who can know what crazy thoughts might be swimming through the head of a person who is contemplating murdering a U.S. President from his very own place of employment? That's a difficult type of mind to thoroughly probe and to figure out indeed." -- DVP; April 2007

More "Timeline Talk" here:

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/06/oswald-timeline-part-1.html

As for [Harold] Norman's testimony, I don't find it unlikely that he could hear the shells. The floors and ceilings were not built like they would be in an office building. They were a single layer of wood, that you could visibly see through in spots. It is not beyond the realm that you could easily hear sounds such as shells being dropped on the single layer of wood above your head. It is certainly probable and I would say likely that you would hear a significant report from a rifle fired above you.

There is also the fact that the Warren Commission conducted four separate "Shell Dropping" tests throughout the year 1964 (on March 20, May 9, June 7, and September 6). The last three of those tests were done with various members of the Warren Commission present each time. Here's what the Commissioners heard....

"All seven of the Commissioners clearly heard the shells drop to the floor." -- Warren Report; Page 71

To address DVP's claims earlier in the thread about ear protection and 650 yard shot with that rifle, I have one simple question. Have you ever fired a rifle? First hand experience would tell you two things. 1) Even well trained shooters would have a very difficult time with a 650 yard shot with even a more capable rifle/scope/ammunition. The carcano round was not meant to be a long distance round, but certainly is capable within the distances shot in Dealey Plaza. 2) Rifles in the caliber and grain size of the carcano are LOUD, and even with ear protection will produce a significant report to those firing. I can assure you, a persons ears would certainly be ringing (although not rendered deaf) after three shots without protection.

Well, Michael, I'm certainly no expert on rifles (or the levels of sound emitted by such weapons). And, no, I have never fired a rifle in my life.

But all of your comments in your last post make sense to me.

Thank you.

Edited by David Von Pein

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