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J. Raymond Carroll

Prayer Man: A Memo to James Gordon

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Greetings James:


Hope all is well in Jolly Old Blighty. Right now I could do with some English weather because it is over 80 degrees most days and humid EVERY day on Long Island.


I am writing to you because of something I just read on the ROKC (Greg Parker) forum. As you probably know, the folks down under like to cast scorn on the Ed. Forum, but on this one issue I agree with them. They say that the Prayer Man thread should be PERMANENTLY PINNED at the top of the forum, and I will tell you why I agree.


Like yourself, I have been studying this case for a long time and it is my opinion that the discovery of Prayer Man is the most important discovery in the history of this case, much more important than the public release of the Zapruder film, important though that was.


A recent poll on the ROKC site found that 80% identify Prayer Man as Lee Oswald.


I mailed a printout of BIll Kelly's thread (Oz Leaving TSBD) to Marina telling her that I believe it proves Lee's innocence, but got no response.


But we know that Marina has long become convinced of Lee's innocence, so in this instance I believe the legal maxim SILENCE SIGNIFIES CONSENT applies, and that Marina agrees that Her husband is Prayer Man.


Anyway, I think it is a travesty of justice that Bill Kelly's thread ( of course it really belongs to the one and only Sean Murphy) should be lost as one among thousands of threads.


Thank you James, and I am sure I speak here for many JFK researchers in asking you to PERMANTLY PIN THAT THREAD!




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A recent poll on the ROKC site found that 80% identify Prayer Man as Lee Oswald.// CARROLL

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THATS IT, PRAYERMAN IS Lovelady holding binoculars // gaal ( I suspect that in general its best to go opposite consensus at ROKC site for the truth.)

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The Evidence is indisputable that Lovelady had left the scene when this scene was filmed

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The Evidence is indisputable that Lovelady had left the scene when this scene was filmed

What evidence would that be, Raymond?

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If you are not too lazy Robert, go back and read the original thread!

It is all laid out there for every ignoramus to see.

Edited by J. Raymond Carroll

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With all respect, the thread is almost two years old and maybe with the exception of a day or two, it's always been on the first page here anyway. What else is there to talk about? A lot of people think it looks a lot like Oswald; I don't think it's that striking of a resemblance, but it could be him. It's just too blurry to tell for sure, and I'm not sure we will ever have a remedy for that. From my understanding, even with future technology, you can't create something out of nothing, i.e. you can't extrapolate pixels that aren't there, but I could be wrong.

My main problem with the whole premise is that if it were Oswald, wouldn't someone have remembered him there and said something?

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My main problem with the whole premise is that if it were Oswald, wouldn't someone have remembered him there and said something?

Exactly, Brian. Not even Oswald himself said he was on the front steps at 12:30. In fact, Oswald himself destroys the "Prayer Man" theory. And, of course, all veteran CTers know about this statement coming out of the mouth of Lee Oswald himself, but they'll just look the other way and ignore it....

REPORTER -- "Did you shoot the President?"

LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "I work in that building."

REPORTER -- "Were you in the building at the time?"

LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir."

~~~~~~~~~~~

I've actually argued with some CTers who are so desperate to put Oswald in the TSBD doorway that they argue that when Oswald admitted to being IN THE BUILDING at the time of the shooting, they'll go to the absurd extreme of suggesting that the doorway area of the TSBD doesn't qualify as being OUTSIDE the building; it still should be considered INSIDE the building. Therefore, Oswald wasn't lying when he said what he said about being INSIDE at 12:30. Funny, isn't it?

As a parallel, does anybody in the world consider themselves to be INSIDE their house when they're sitting on their their front porch?

Edited by David Von Pein

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Raymond,

The issue of pining is a difficult one. Members ROKC have repeatedly asked for the thread to be pinned. However if we pin one thread we are in danger of being requested to pin others.

I concur the thread is an important one, and if members want it on page one then just bump it as I have just done.

With regard to Sean Murphy when we get the Lancer archive restored = as we still intend to do - then members will have access to Sean's original work.

I believe that Sean has changed his email address. I did contact him with the email address we have. I am sure he would have replied to me - even if he had other interests and no longer intended to contribute. The fact I got no response suggests we no longer have his current email address.

James.

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That's a ridiculous assertion, Raymond. The burden of proof is on someone to prove it's someone other than Oswald? Why?

Members of this forum collectively know an enormous amount about the case. But it's pompous to think that we know that much, like exactly who was standing on the steps of the depository exactly at that minute and just because the testimonies and literature don't mention the prayer man figure, it couldn't have just been a regular bystander.

Edit for context: Raymond either deleted his earlier post or it was deleted by a moderator, but he said the burden of proof was on Oswald accusers to prove Prayer Man was someone other than Oswald.

Edited by Brian Schmidt

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If you are not too lazy Robert, go back and read the original thread!

It is all laid out there for every ignoramus to see.

Don't blow me off like that, Raymond, and don't refer to me as an "ignoramus".

According to the WC testimony of both Lovelady AND Shelley, they stayed on the steps of the TSBD for 3-4 minutes after the last shot, and only left the steps after Gloria Cavalry returned to the steps, from her position down by where the shooting took place, with news of the assassination.

I have yet to see any proof to the contrary.

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With all respect, the thread is almost two years old and maybe with the exception of a day or two, it's always been on the first page here anyway. What else is there to talk about? A lot of people think it looks a lot like Oswald; I don't think it's that striking of a resemblance, but it could be him. It's just too blurry to tell for sure, and I'm not sure we will ever have a remedy for that. From my understanding, even with future technology, you can't create something out of nothing, i.e. you can't extrapolate pixels that aren't there, but I could be wrong.

My main problem with the whole premise is that if it were Oswald, wouldn't someone have remembered him there and said something?

A cop in a white motorcycle helmet supposedly ran up the steps of the TSBD, and no one, including Frazier, recalls that either. Yet everyone seems to accept that Baker entered the front of the TSBD.

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My main problem with the whole premise is that if it were Oswald, wouldn't someone have remembered him there and said something?

Exactly, Brian. Not even Oswald himself said he was on the front steps at 12:30. In fact, Oswald himself destroys the "Prayer Man" theory. And, of course, all veteran CTers know about this statement coming out of the mouth of Lee Oswald himself, but they'll just look the other way and ignore it....

REPORTER -- "Did you shoot the President?"

LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "I work in that building."

REPORTER -- "Were you in the building at the time?"

LEE HARVEY OSWALD -- "Naturally, if I work in that building, yes, sir."

~~~~~~~~~~~

I've actually argued with some CTers who are so desperate to put Oswald in the TSBD doorway that they argue that when Oswald admitted to being IN THE BUILDING at the time of the shooting, they'll go to the absurd extreme of suggesting that the doorway area of the TSBD doesn't qualify as being OUTSIDE the building; it still should be considered INSIDE the building. Therefore, Oswald wasn't lying when he said what he said about being INSIDE at 12:30. Funny, isn't it?

As a parallel, does anybody in the world consider themselves to be INSIDE their house when they're sitting on their their front porch?

We have no idea exactly what Oswald said. All we have are Fritz's notes, written several days after the assassination.

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Raymond,

The issue of pinning is a difficult one. Members ROKC have repeatedly asked for the thread to be pinned. However if we pin one thread we are in danger of being requested to pin others.

James.

James, Thank you for your prompt response.

I assure you, after studying the JFK case for many years, you will never ever find a more important discovery than Prayer Man.

It is the greatest discovery in the history of the case.

To leave it as a needle in a haystack, instead of The EDUCATION FORUM'S most important contribution to the case is a very sad waste IMHO.

It is a bad idea to keep bumping the the thread since most of the best data is at the very beginning. The thread should have been stopped and Pinned even before the Baker/Oz lunchroom issue got going. That should have been a separate thread, IMO.

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We have no idea exactly what Oswald said. All we have are Fritz's notes, written several days after the assassination.

Are you for real, Bob?

I just posted a video in my last post in which Oswald says the exact words I quoted in text form above. Are you not aware of the words Oswald said to the live TV audience just PRIOR to uttering his famous "I'm just a patsy" lie?

In the short space of just 27 seconds in this video, Oswald tells numerous provable lies. And we don't need a single note from Captain Fritz to confirm those lies either. But one thing he told the truth about here, of course, is when he admits to being inside the building at the time the President was shot....

Edited by David Von Pein

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We have no idea exactly what Oswald said. All we have are Fritz's notes, written several days after the assassination.

Are you for real, Bob?

I just posted a video in my last post in which Oswald says the exact words I quoted in text form above. Are you not aware of the words Oswald said to the live TV audience just PRIOR to uttering his famous "I'm just a patsy" lie?

In the short space of just 27 seconds in this video, Oswald tells numerous provable lies. And we don't need a single note from Captain Fritz to confirm those lies either. But one thing he told the truth about here, of course, is when he admits to being inside the building at the time the President was shot....

Ever occur to you that he was not answering the question, "Did you shoot the President?" and was, instead, answering another reporter?

I mean, c'mon Dave, if someone asked you if you shot the President, would you reply with "I work in that building"? What kind of an answer is that?

And if the first two are not connected, it's quite likely that Oswald was not referring to the shooting of the President when he responded to "Were you in the building at the time?"

Just because the microphone we are listening to picked up the question about shooting the President, does not mean Oswald heard and responded to it.

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