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Glenn Nall

I've never seen this film before, similar to Z, but...

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wow. so not only is the removal, and obviously the disappearance, of the sign suspicious, but the fact that no one even knows when it was removed is suspicious, as well as is the Commission's almost complete lack of interest.

how mysterious.

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I've heard many CTers claim that the Stemmons sign was removed the day after the assassination, which is nonsense. The two pictures below were taken during the WC re-enactment in Dealey Plaza on May 24, 1964 (6 months and 2 days after JFK was killed), and it sure looks like BOTH the Stemmons and R.L. Thornton signs are the same ones that were there on Nov. 22. If they are different signs, I sure can't tell the difference....

Dealey-Plaza-May-24-1964.jpg

Photo-Taken-During-Warren-Commission-Ree

And here are the two signs on 11/24/63....

Dealey-Plaza-November-1963--002.jpg

And here's the Stemmons sign on 11/25/63....

Praying-In-Dealey-Plaza-Dallas-Texas-Nov

Edited by David Von Pein

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they're clearly the same signs - the right post is leaning just as it is in some of the pics from 11/22.

probably the reality is that you've heard a few CTers say that and less studied ones at that. but sure, "many" sounds better.

but they've fixed the bullet hole in the "O", and that guy's tie wasn't like that in Betzner, and those Nuns weren't there in Zapruder, so clearly SOMETHING's going on here...

Edited by Glenn Nall

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...and those Nuns weren't there in Zapruder...

An example of the "Conspiracy Mind" at work.....

The second nun from the left in that Nov. 25 picture bears a striking resemblance to Sister Mary Stigmata in the movie

"The Blues Brothers":

The-Blues-Brothers-016.png

And based upon the fact that Stigmata was in Dallas on Nov. 25, 1963, just three days after the assassination, coupled with the fact that she was a Catholic nun and John F. Kennedy was a Catholic, I think it's reasonable to conclude that Sister Stigmata (aka Kathleen Freemen) probably was packing a rod deep within the sewer system of Dealey Plaza at 12:30 PM CST on 11/22/63, and she utilized her status as a "Woman Of The Cloth" to avoid any suspicion by the authorities, and that it was Stigmata (and not Jimmy Files or Mac Wallace or Lumpy Rutherford) who fired the fatal shot into President Kennedy's brain from the storm drain on Elm Street.

And after performing the grisly deed, Stigmata concealed the murder weapon under her vestments, hitched a ride back to Jack Ruby's apartment with David Ferrie, and waited until the heat was off before returning to her regular church duties at The Church Of The Holy Hit Man in Clay Shaw's hometown of Kentwood, Louisiana.

Case solved. It couldn't have happened any other way given the evidence of the nuns praying in the Plaza on Monday, November 25th, 1963.

Praying-In-Dealey-Plaza-Dallas-Texas-Nov

Edited by David Von Pein

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edit

Edited by Karl Kinaski

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they're clearly the same signs - the right post is leaning just as it is in some of the pics from 11/22.

probably the reality is that you've heard a few CTers say that and less studied ones at that. but sure, "many" sounds better.

but they've fixed the bullet hole in the "O", and that guy's tie wasn't like that in Betzner, and those Nuns weren't there in Zapruder, so clearly SOMETHING's going on here...

Von Pein clearly has issues with WCR testimony unless, of course, it supports his and/or Meyer's & DaBug's Reclaiming History tripe!

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interesting - may I try to understand this...?

they're saying that shot 3 was fired at Frame 375? that 2 was at 313? and that far lamp post would have been in frame 375, only in reality it had already come and gone, right?

i have noted that DVP is curiously silent on this...

The preface to WCD298 is strangely criptic and the images used in the WCR removes the strings and never shows the limo at the base of the stairs - Commission Document 298 - FBI Letter from Director of 20 Jan 1964 with Visual Aides Brochure

CD298Preface-nary-wcdocs-25_0004_0006_zp

The problem with DVP's response is that we all know it was early... this model was completed and presented to the WC by the FBI in early January...

The question remains David... CE875 tells us that the final shot was NOT at 4+65 (465f feet) from a fixed point up Elm, but 4 feet past 5+00 or 504 feet from that same fixed point up Elm. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134#relPageId=897&tab=page

CE875%20and%20CE884%20conflicting%20SS%2

The FBI's model puts a shot 40 feet past Z313 (465 + 40 = 505)

These are the measurements the FBI provided plotted onto DP

From what information David did both the SS and FBI determine a shot hit 40 feet further down Elm than the Muchmore, Zfilm, Nix, Moorman images suggest?

FBIshotrecreationcd298-andactualmeasurem

Edited by David Josephs

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I saw Executive Action after it came out; But the assassination sequence, I don't even remember; could the film be from that movie?

I thought so too looks around that date but surprisingly not one single actor stepped on the sacred ground of DP for EA let alone dozens of extras.

Not one, even when you think that has to be an actor in DP, it's not, check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAw4PF1akpw

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Glenn,

That obviously was a fairly early evaluation (and OPINION) concerning the timing of the three shots, which was put together for the Warren Commission shortly after the WC began doing its work on the case. And the timing of the shots as seen in that FBI report (CD298) is quite clearly in error. The last shot is now widely believed to be the head shot, which is quite clearly occurring at Z313.

While you're 'making things up' tell us why that first shot, fired at that 'angle' downward and missed, went on to strike the curb near the underpass and hitting Tague? Take that downward angle and put the rifle in the shooter's hand in the 6th floor window. That's what re-creations are for, so you can 'change' the things that don't fit. (now that's total freedom DVP, something you don't have.

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hmmm - how long after the shooting was the SF Sign removed?

these reenactors seem to be using a close replica of the limo - the govt didn't, right? why not, i'm just curious...

see emphasis...

"Whitewash 11..The Report on the Warren Commission"........Harold Weisberg 1966..

Page 4......

"The Commission staff was not unaware of this, for although there is no indication it ever heeded it's own unavoidable proof or wondered why anyone would dream of destroying evidence in the assassination of an American President, the whole story was blurted out by Emmett J.Hudson, ( witness to the killing )groundskeeper of Dealey Plaza, in his belated testimony of July 22,1964, almost two months after the Commission had originally scheduled the end of it's work..( first mentioned page 45..WhiteWash.) .

Not only were the hedges and shrubbery trimmed, thus destroying all the projection points essential to photographic analysis, but all the road signs absolutely vital in any reconstruction had been moved-------All Three Of Them--------Zapruder had filmed over the top of the center sign ( Stemmons) ..Two of the signs were entirely removed. The one over which Zapruder filmed was replaced, and there is no reason to believe it's replacement is in exactly the same location in the ground or at exactly the same height above it.

Unless both of these conditions, plus the angle of the sign toward Zapruder's lens , were exactly identical with conditions when he took his pictures, no precise reconstruction is possible..

All this funny business with the signs got on the record by accident, not through the dilligence of the Commission or it's counsel. Wesley J.Liebeler was questioning Hudson. Not until eight months to the day after the assassination, but finally Hudson was being questioned. He volunteered this testimony: "Now, they have moved some of those signs. They have moved that R.L. Thornton Freeway sign and put up a Stemmons sign ".....It was this "Stemmons" sign over which Zapruder photographed.

"They have? They have moved it?" Liebeler asked, his cool nonchalance preserved in cood type.

"Yes, sir." replied Hudson.

"That might explain it", Liebeler then said. at the same time, without even seeming so to intend, preserving for both the Commission and history the certain knowledge that the two photographs about which he was interrogating Hudson, one taken at the time of the assassination and the other after it, were not in agreement. ....And here the accidental interest of the Commission in the destruction and multilation of the most essential evidence ended"..................

Page 130:

"When Hudson reaffirmed his testimony ( and the landscaping also was altered, with the destruction of essential photo-intelligence and analysis reference points in the backgrounds of the pictures)..., the complacent assistant counsel replied, ""That might explain it, because this picture here, No 18, was taken after the assassination and this one was taken at the time----No. 1..""

The "after" refers to the official reconstruction of the crime!.....Hudson's unanticipated blurting out of what is obvious from the most cursory examination of the photographs evidence marks the beginning and the end of the Commission's interest."

**************

I have read various times of sign removal... from near immediately after the assassination (and replaced soon thereafter) to weeks and even months after the assassination...

Hudson's unanticipated blurting out of what is obvious from the most cursory examination of the photographs evidence marks the beginning and the end of the Commission's interest." Surely no one is under the impression that the Warren Commission was after the 'truth'?

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...and those Nuns weren't there in Zapruder...

An example of the "Conspiracy Mind" at work.....

The second nun from the left in that Nov. 25 picture bears a striking resemblance to Sister Mary Stigmata in the movie

"The Blues Brothers":

The-Blues-Brothers-016.png

And based upon the fact that Stigmata was in Dallas on Nov. 25, 1963, just three days after the assassination, coupled with the fact that she was a Catholic nun and John F. Kennedy was a Catholic, I think it's reasonable to conclude that Sister Stigmata (aka Kathleen Freemen) probably was packing a rod deep within the sewer system of Dealey Plaza at 12:30 PM CST on 11/22/63, and she utilized her status as a "Woman Of The Cloth" to avoid any suspicion by the authorities, and that it was Stigmata (and not Jimmy Files or Mac Wallace or Lumpy Rutherford) who fired the fatal shot into President Kennedy's brain from the storm drain on Elm Street.

And after performing the grisly deed, Stigmata concealed the murder weapon under her vestments, hitched a ride back to Jack Ruby's apartment with David Ferrie, and waited until the heat was off before returning to her regular church duties at The Church Of The Holy Hit Man in Clay Shaw's hometown of Kentwood, Louisiana.

Case solved. It couldn't have happened any other way given the evidence of the nuns praying in the Plaza on Monday, November 25th, 1963.

Praying-In-Dealey-Plaza-Dallas-Texas-Nov

Nutter's fiction follows:

That's not the way it went down. She was wearing her habit to hide the Manlicher Carcano and the Mauser that were found in the sniper's nest. She also had the 36" brown bag with Mac Wallaces fingerprints on it. She was the one firing from the sniper's nest. She was small enough she could fit and additionally the black habit would have been hard to see. Brennan said she waved out the window at him, and he waved back. The Catholic church was upset at JFK's cavorting and they sent the sister to make it right.

Footnote: DVP, since you don't have total freedom to make up stuff, we all have to assume you believe what you wrote about the Nuns.

Edited by Kenneth Drew

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DVP, since you don't have total freedom to make up stuff, we all have to assume you believe what you wrote about the Nuns.

Yeah, Ken. It's either that or maybe I was having a bit of a giggle at the expense of crazy JFK conspiracy theories.

Which of those two options is likely the correct one?

Edited by David Von Pein

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DVP, since you don't have total freedom to make up stuff, we all have to assume you believe what you wrote about the Nuns.

Yeah, Ken. It's either that or maybe I was having a bit of a giggle at the expense of crazy JFK conspiracy theories.

Which of those two options is likely the correct one?

Sorry DVP, but you don't have the freedom to have a bit of a giggle, you are only allowed to put up the truth, no frivolity allowed.

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That Clip , though it appeared in the Stone Movie JFK, was used by Stone but not filmed by him. Nobody in the research community is able to track down the origin of that Clip. Who made it, when, for what purpose? Obviously it is cut out of a longer clip ... 

Edited by Karl Kinaski

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On 6/30/2015 at 11:50 AM, David Von Pein said:

Glenn,

That obviously was a fairly early evaluation (and OPINION) concerning the timing of the three shots, which was put together for the Warren Commission shortly after the WC began doing its work on the case. And the timing of the shots as seen in that FBI report (CD298) is quite clearly in error. The last shot is now widely believed to be the head shot, which is quite clearly occurring at Z313.

Luckily we had someone befriend ROBERT WEST and get from him the notes related to the 3 surveys done prior to the WC which in turn was prompted by a memo from Redlich to Rankin on April 27, 1964...

In each of these 3 surveys, shot #2 is found to have been in relatively the same spot based on vertical distances along the sloping Elm.
The Survey Plat which is shown in ce585 still shows the location for 3 shots hitting a target on Elm.  The final Survey done in May/June 1964 and related to ce884 is overlaid on ce585 showing the shots in relation to the yellow curbs.  The first curb with Moorman & Hill, 2nd Curb by Altgens and 3rd curb near the manhole cover.

Time/Life survey Nov 26th, SS/FBI Dec 2, 3, 4 creates WCD298 and ce875, February 7, 1964 FBI survey plat jives with other two regarding shot location for #2 at z313 4+65 and another shot when the bumper of the limo is over 4+96.  The same FBI agents: Shaneyfelt, Gauthier, Frazier, Rogge and Thompson who were involved in the Dec and Feb reenactments concluding a shot down by the stairs are involved with the WC and their desire to find out what exactly happened - despite the FBI and SS agreeing with the information in WCD298.

Maybe a reading of that memo would help clear things up?  How is it that by April 27, 1964 the Warren Commission does not know if the FBI/SS described scenarios are even physically possible...  what were the first three surveys about?  and why does the final survey contradict their earlier work dramatically?

C'mon Dave, this is direct evidence of the manipulation of evidence related to the shots, the zfilm and even Altgens' statements.  Attached as well is a composite showing how badly these recreations were related to Altgens...

 

  • April 27, 1964
     

MEMORANDUM

TO:    J. Lee Rankin

FROM:    Norman Redlich


    The purpose of this memorandum is to explain the reasons why
certain members of the staff feel that it is important to take certain
on-site photographs in connection with the location of the approximate
points at which the three bullets struck the occupants of the
Presidential limousine.

    Our report presumably will state that the President was hit by
the first bullet, Governor Connally by the second, and the President
by the third and fatal bullet.  The report will also conclude that the
bullets were fired by one person located in the sixth floor southeast
corner window of the TSBD building.

    As our investigation now stands, however, we have not shown
that these events could possibly have occurred in the manner suggested
above.
 All we have is a reasonable hypothesis which appears to be
supported by the medical testimony but which has not been checked out
against the physical facts at the scene of the assassination.

    Our examination of the Zapruder films shows that the fatal
third shot struck the President at a point which we can locate with
reasonable accuracy on the ground.  We can do this because we know the
exact frame (no. 313) in the film at which the third shot hit the
President and we know the location of the photographer.  By lining up
fixed objects in the movie frame where this shot occurs we feel that
we have determined the approximate location of this shot.  This can be
verified by a photo of the same spot from the point where Zapruder was
standing.

    We have the testimony of Governor and Mrs. Connally that the
Governor was hit with the second bullet at a point which we probably
cannot fix with precision.  We feel we have established, however, with
the help of medical testimony, that the shot which hit the Governor
did not come after frame 240 on the Zapruder film.  The governor feels
that it came around 230, which is certainly consistent with our
observations of the film and with the doctor's testimony.  Since the
President was shot at frame 313, this would leave a time of at least 4
seconds between the two shots, certainly ample for even an
inexperienced marksman.

    Prior to our last viewing of the films with Governor Connally
we had assumed that the President was hit while he was concealed
behind the sign which occurs between frames 215-225.  We have expert
testimony to the effect that a skilled marksman would require a
minimum 2 seconds between shots with this rifle.  Since the camera
operates at 18 1/3 frames per second, there would have to be a minimum
of 40 frames between shots.  It is apparent, therefore, that if
Governor Connally was even as late as frame 240, the President would
have to have been hit no later than frame 190 and probably even
earlier.

    We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine
whether the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to
frame 190.  We could locate the position on the ground which
corresponds to this frame and it would then be our intent to establish
by photography that the assassin would have fired the first shot at the
President prior to this point.  Our intention is not to establish the point with complete accuracy,
but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin.

    I had always assumed that our final report would be
accompanied by a surveyor's diagram which would indicate the
approximate location of the three shots.  We certainly cannot prepare
such a diagram without establishing that we are describing an
occurrence which is physically possible
.  Our failure to do this will,
in my opinion, place this Report in jeopardy since it is a certainty
that others will examine the Zapruder films and raise the same
questions which have been raised by our examination of the films.  If
we do not attempt to answer these observable facts, others may answer
them with facts which challenge our most basic assumptions, or with
fanciful theories based on our unwillingness to test our assumptions
by the investigatory methods available to us.

    I should add that the facts which we now have in our possession, submitted to us in separate reports from the FBI and Secret Service,
are totally incorrect and, if left uncorrected, will present a completely misleading picture.

 
    It may well be that this project should be undertaken by the
FBI and Secret Service with our assistance instead of being done as a
staff project.  The important thing is that the project be undertaken
expeditiously.

 

Shot 2 - z313 per all the surveys at 4+65.3 and 418.35 ele.jpg

CE 585 shows shots 2 and 3 with z313 inbetween.jpg

Altgens-recreation-and-the-vast-difference-in-JFK-location.gif

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