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James DiEugenio

Did Oswald order the Rifle: Almost Certainly Not

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If you read his thread saying that Oswald sure did order the rifle, Davey used Bugliosi to certify that he did. Now, like the mad dog prosecutor Vince Bugliosi was, he was all in for convicting Oswald--with any and all evidence he could get. Including the most discredited stuff one can imagine. But he usually did a tap dance around problems with that evidence. All you have to do is read, for example, his section on Kennedy's brain. Which, as Stringer said, are not the pics he took of the brain. (But somehow Vince left that out of his text.)

Well, Vince also is "all in" with the rifle. He writes a chapter on it in RH. He wants to use everything he can to try and show Oswald ordered it. And like other things that work against him, he actually says: So what if its the wrong rifle? (And it is the wrong rifle. With Vince, wrong rifle, wrong brain =so what?))

Well, Vince says that there were two Klein's magazine ads found at the Paine household, specifically in the garage. And he pretty much leaves it at that.

Smart move Vince. I never said Vince was dumb. Now let us explain why he does not tell the whole story about this "discovery". Which Martha Moyer did tell in her fine article "Ordering the Rifle."

First of all, the DPD said they found this on the 23rd. Which is the day Harry Holmes sent his secretary out to find ads for Klein's in magazines. He said he found two, American Rifleman and Field and Stream. Which, no surprise, is where the two ads the DPD say they found came from.

Except, what Vince does not say is that there were two differing stories as to where the ads are found. The one Vince uses says that the ads were found in a small box in Ruth's garage marked "miscellaneous photos and maps". Hmm. The ads were neither maps nor pictures. They were literally ads.

Why does Vince use this source? Because as Martha notes, the other one is even worse. This source says--please sit down before you read this:

The ads were found on the bedside table in Marina's bedroom!

Yep, Oswald kept those ads for about 8 months. He then transported them from apartment to apartment to apartment to apartment, even to New Orleans and back. He then left them at the Paine garage, but took them out the night before he shot Kennedy. He then was looking at them in bed while watching TV with Marina. He fell asleep, and on the day he was going to kill Kennedy, he forgot to pick them up and left them in plain sight. Right before he picked up the rifle he had ordered from them, and used to kill Kennedy!

LOL ROTF :hotorwot

Can you believe this stuff? Apparently Vince did. And so does his acolyte Von Pein. Any objective jury would be sitting there with mouths agape if any prosecutor had the chutzpah to present this nuttiness to them. But there's more.

These cut out ads were not on the DPD inventory assembled for the FBI on the 26th. Nor according to Martha, are they on the original DPD inventory. And guess what, when Curry published his book in 1969, he used a different ad. From which he omitted credit, which he did not usually do. And when Gary Savage did his book, in the 90's, he used an ad from Guns and Ammo to show how Oswald ordered the rifle. Needless to say, Adrian Alba handed over about five magazines he said could have been used to the FBi on the 23rd. All three of the above plus two more.

In other words, the DPD, Holmes and the FBI were hunting down any and all magazine ads after the fact. Anything to convict Oswald. And they got plenty of them. Only Vince would leave all that detail out. And only DVP would make like a parakeet and mimic it without pointing out any of the problems with it.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Let us start backwards. That always helps in this case because it sets off the evidence more dramatically. In this case, for Oswald to have ordered the rifle and used it, he had to pick it up, right?

The official story says that Oswald picked up the rifle on. . . . . .???????!!!!!!!

Well, that is one problem. There is no date ever given as to when Oswald picked up the rifle.

Read the WR, pages 118-22. You will find nothing in that regard. Not even acknowledgement of the fact that they do not know when he did so. They just say he picked it up during the time period he had the box.

So this leads to a question: How often did postal workers deliver 3-5 foot long rifle boxes from Klein's to people who rented boxes? Did it happen every day? Unlikely. Every week, I doubt it. Maybe every other week? Once a month? I would lean toward the last.

Then why did no postal worker recall the transaction on 11/22/63 when Oswald's name flashed on the TV screen that evening?

What makes this even more puzzling is this: There were FBI informants infiltrated throughout the Dallas post office to inform on suspected communists who were getting leftist literature in their boxes. (Reclaiming Parkland, p. 62)

Duh, what about a rifle from one of the largest arms dealers in America? Would not that be a suspicious mail order item for a commie like Oswald?

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Again, working backwards:

The official story says that Oswald picked up the rifle at his PO box on an unknown date.

Except, this would have been highly improbable.


Because the rifle was not ordered in Oswald's name. The official story has the rifle ordered under the alias Hidell.

This created an enormous problem for the WC.

See, there was a postal regulation that said mail could not be delivered to a PO box unless the mail matched the box holder's name.

Therefore, under this regulation, the rifle should have been returned to Klein's marked "addessee unknown".

How does the WR dodge this one? Through lies and alteration of evidence.

Harry Holmes, an FBI informant, was called by the WC to say the regulation only applied to mail and not merchandise. The problem was he showed up with no regulation book or regulation citation in his hands to prove this was so. (Reclaiming Parkland, p. 61) If it was so, would he not have cited such a source, and would not the Commission have brought in like say the Postmaster General to testify to this exception? But the FBI , who coordinated the witness agendas and supplied background info on them, knew they could trust Holmes. And boy did Harry lie his head off for them.

He also said that Oswald probably allowed for someone else to pick up mail for him. That would have been marked down in Part 3 of the box application form. The only problem with Harry saying that was this: there was no part 3 available. So Harry told another lie. He said that that it was SOP to dispose of those applications once the box expired. And the WR repeats this lie. (see page 121)

How bad was the WC? This bad. Young Stewart Galanor wrote a letter to the post office HQ in Washington in 1966. A man named Ralph Rea wrote back and said that in all post office branches in 1963 no one should get mail not addressed to him; and that the mail application in all parts should be retained for two years after the box was closed. Further, that delivery receipts for firearms and statements by shippers of firearms should be held for four years. (See Galanor, Cover Up, Documents 37-38)

Just how bad of a perjurer was Holmes? And just how bad was the FBI?

Regarding the latter, the FBI knew that the box application did not include permission for anyone else to get mail from Oswald's box in Dallas. (Reclaiming Parkland,p. 61) Concerning the former, after his death, Holmes' family contacted JFK Lancer Group. They apologized for what he did and tried to chalk it up to the pressures of the Cold War. (ibid)

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Now, when Holmes testified to Wesley Liebeler, he lied and said that Oswald could have written down a name on the box form, and that person could have picked up the rifle.

Here is my question: If we go by Mr. Ralph Rea, and not the lying Harry Holmes, would not Oswald have had to prove he was Hidell? In other words, since the box was not in Hidell's name, Oswald would have had to have shown he also went by Hidell, right?

And would not something like that have gone up to the immediate supervisor?

And you are going to say that no one in the post office remembered that either? Even when it was revealed in the news that Oswald used the alias Hidell in New Orleans and in Dallas to order the rifle?

And let us stay with this absurdity.

How did the FBI know about the Hidell alias?

Through Oswald!!

When Oswald was arrested in New Orleans, he called for the FBI to interview him. (Think about that one a minute. An arrested communist wants to be interviewed by the FBI.) Oswald wanted DeBrueys, but Quigley showed up. Quigley picked up a lot of the stuff confiscated by Martello from Oswald. One of these things was the FPCC card with the Hidell alias on it.

Now, recall, this is August. And Oswald understood what Quigley was doing since he spent over an hour with him. (What did they talk about, what life was like in the USSR?) So Oswald knew that the New Orleans FBI had this card. In other words, he knows that the alias will trace right back to him in FBI files! What he was too cheap to buy a different rifle to shoot Kennedy with?

Oswald had an IQ of about 112. He was not an idiot. But yet this is the kind of junk the WC wants us to buy.

Your kryptonite is back Davey. You should not have called me a clown.

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Go Jim!

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Now, let us take a look at the other side of the transaction: the official story for Oswald ordering the rifle.

As Bill Kelly points out, Oswald was working at JCS at this time.

JCS billed their clients by using time cards. Oswald worked on nine jobs that day until 12:15 AM. (Armstrong, Harvey and Lee p. 450)

By the markings on the envelope the money order had to be purchased before noon.

So either these time cards are fakes and JCS way lying to its customers, or Oswald did not leave work that day in time to mail the money order.

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Now, the official story says that somehow Oswald left work and he walked down to the post office, which was not next door. It was eleven blocks away, more than one mile.

Now if anyone has ever walked a mile, only in the WR can you traverse such a distance in a matter of a few minutes. In the real world, outside the WR, when you walk over a mile, i t takes something like 14-15 minutes. That is if you are tall and walk fast. Well, we don't know how fast Oswald walked, but we know he was not tall.

But this means he would have been missing from work for about 30 minutes. Again, the time cards present a serious problem.

But then, from the zone 12 on the envelope, it indicates that Oswald did not mail the money order from the post office, but from a mail box quite a distance away. (ibid, p. 450) Now, this creates another serious problem, and Davey tried everything in the world to admit this was not true. That the 12 referred to something else. But both Greg Parker and John Armstrong demonstrated that such was the case. In fact, John actually interviewed an old retired postal worker and showed him the envelope. He said the 12 was the zone number.

So now, Oswald is gone form work even longer and does something illogical.

But that is not the worst part about this segment of the transaction. This is the worst part.

The money order was flown to Chicago, was then delivered off the plane and taken to the main post office and then transported to the branch office and then delivered to Klein's and Klein's then sorted it out according to type of currency and then took it to the bank and then the bank stamped it deposited.........

All in the time span of, drum roll please:

24 hours!

I call this the SR 71 money order delivery. Because to do all this, that is the type of plane one would need. Except for the facts that:

1.) SR 71 was never used for mail delivery

2.) Even with that type of plane you still could not do all those things in 24 hours.

I mean even with computers and sensors you cannot do those things today. Back then there were no zip codes and no computers or sensors.

Science Fiction.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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As Ray Gallagher noted in his seminal article, for Probe "...the bank deposit slip, the extra copy provided by the bank at the time of transfer reads February 15, 1963 not March 13--one month before Oswald sent the coupon...Of course if the February date is correct, then C2766 could not be the correct serial number on the rifle in the so called backyard photographs."

But on top of that discrepancy, the alleged money order deposited by Kleins' at First National bank of Chicago has none of the endorsements that the vice president of the bank, Robert WIlmouth, says it should have on it. There should be at least three other stamps on the back of the money order as the money order progressed through the banking system. They are not there. But WIlmouth never testified to the WC itself. Further the FBI did not find Oswald's latent fingerprints on the money order. (RP, p. 58)

As John Armstorng demonstrated, checks deposited by Oswald do have those stamps on them.

David Josephs has recently discovered some other important info about the money order. It may have been found in two locations.

Hmm, maybe Armstrong was right, there were two Oswalds and they got their signals crossed, huh Davey?

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At 3: 30 PM, on 11/23 Harry Holmes (who else) contacted his superior in Fort Worth and said that postal money order No. 2,202,130, 462 in the amount of 21.45 had been used to pay for the rifle.

The problem with this is that Armstrong computed how many money orders the post office was selling per week. And this number was way too high to have been issued in March of 1963. That number should not have been sold until late in 1964.

Harry was the first and only person in Dallas-Fort Worth to figure out the number of the money order.

The money order was found in Alexandria VA. Question: How could it have been found there if it had not been passed through the system? If it had, it would have the proper stamps on it.

I think we need another apology from Harry's family.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Now , I could go on and on in this regard.

The amount of evidence indicating that Oswald did not order the rifle and did not pick it up is very formidable.

But to top it all off there is this:

Its the wrong rifle!

That is, the rifle the WC says Oswald ordered, is not the rifle in evidence.

Now Davey and his consultant Gary Mack are shameless in this regard.

They say, well, Klein's was out of the 36 inch model and sent Oswald the 40.2 inch model.

Sure, and the WC was so positive that happened that they had the officers from Klein's testify to that effect.

Go ahead and find any testimony from any Klein's employee that says this was their policy in the volumes. Then tell me about.


(Sound of crickets in the night.)

And as anyone familiar with this aspect knows, the WC understood the problem with the wrong rifle. That is why they avoided it in the WR. But, for one, David Belin understood the discrepancy. So if it could have been easily explained away, why was it not?

No problem for the late David Belin.

DVP and Gary Mack will stoop even lower than you did.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Let me sum up the central problem with all this.

In any homicide case, you may have one or two anomalies in the overall case, even when the defendant is guilty.

But in looking at the above, you have anomaly backed up to anomaly backed on to another anomaly to anomaly etc. Until all you really have are anomalies. On both sides of the transaction.

And recall, this is just the rifle purchase.

As David Josephs will show, you have a similar evidentiary record with the hand gun.

I don't have to tell anyone about all the problems with say CE 399, and the back wound into Kennedy. Jim Gordon has done a a fine job on that. Let's not get to the head wound. We will be here all night.

But every where you look in this case, this is what you get.

So for Von Pein and Ayton to title their book, Beyond Reasonable Doubt, was that supposed to be satirical?

There is no piece of physical evidence in this case that proves Oswald killed Kennedy beyond reasonable doubt. And recall, in 1963 the standard was beyond reasonable doubt to a moral certainty.

This is why lawyer after lawyer has looked at the case and said, it simply does not add up. The latest being Jeremy Gunn of the ARRB at Stanford. See if you can find that info at Davey's site. We taped his whole talk for Probe. This is a trained lawyer who spent nearly four years looking at the declassified record. His examination of Stringer was a masterly performance. See if you find that particular interview on Davey's site.

The point is this: once presented with the totality of the evidence, not the WC version of it, or Bugliosi's version, there is room for much reasonable doubt.

Too much. And the WC knew it.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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Given all of the evidence presented HERE, plus adding in just a small amount of common sense to go with it, can any reasonable person really come to a conclusion that Lee Harvey Oswald did not own and possess Rifle #C2766 (CE139) in the year 1963?

I'll answer that last question myself -- No, they cannot.

Lots more Rifle Talk below.....





Edited by David Von Pein

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DVP : I'll answer that last question myself -- No, they cannot.

​Davey we have just seen what your opinion means. And VInce's.

​When confronted with the whole story, it means very little.

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