Why Does DVP Rattle Cages Here?

[Pat Speer]

LOL

Mark Lane: Mr. Baker, do you know the difference between a stair well and a lunch room?

Baker: Yes.

Lane: Let me show you a picture of a stairwell. (Shows him a stairwell in the TSBD)

Now, let me show you the lunchroom on the second floor.

Did you have any problem seeing those?

Baker: No.

Lane: Now, if I showed you the third floor stairwell or the fourth, do you think they would look different?

Baker: No.

Lane: Now, let me show you the photo of the lunch room again. Do you notice there is a door ajar here, do you notice the furniture, do you notice the soda machine?

Baker: Yes.

Lane: Now did you notice any of those things on the stair well photo?

Baker: No.

Lane: Have you ever in your entire life seen a stair well with this kind of furniture in it?

Baker: No.

Lane: Was there any door window on the stairwell that you looked through to see Oswald?

Baker: No.

Lane: So how could you possibly confuse one with the other?

Baker: Well, it wasn't easy. But I wanted to keep my job. I mean you saw what happened to Roger Craig.

Hi Jim

I've never seen this exchange between Mark Lane and Baker before. When did it take place?

You've obviously scared DVP quite badly by posting it. When he completely ignores something, you know it is Kryptonite to him.

How about it, Davey? Kind of an odd statement Baker makes right at the end there, eh what?

Jim made it up. I suspect he was trying to be funny.

[Pat Speer]

It's a matter of timing, Dave, plus the fact Oswald was seen by a receptionist on the 2nd floor. Whomever Baker saw on the 4th floor (wearing a jacket that Oswald did not own) could not have been LHO, as he could not be seen by the receptionist PLUS be on the 4th floor.

Add to this it would look very suspicious for Oswald to have descended only two storeys in the time it took Baker to make his way to the 4th floor.

Fritz's notes, written to appear to be hastily jotted down during an interview, were actually written a week after the assassination. Bogus, and not a reliable source.

Why was Truly's affidavit taken on the 23rd, while almost every other TSBD gave their affidavits on the 22nd?

Not only was the interview with Curry filmed on the 23rd, at no point does Curry say where the encounter with Baker and Oswald took place. It could have been at the front door, for all we know. No matter, by the 23rd, the conspiracy was taking shape nicely. If this interview with Curry had taken place on the afternoon of the 22nd, I might take you seriously.

You got nothin', Dave.

You lost me on the line I've highlighted, Bob. Where did you get this? If I recall, Fritz's notes were only discovered after his death.

So why in heck would he make bogus notes, and write them in a manner suggesting they were original notes, and then fail to do anything with them?

From the Warren Commission testimony of Capt. J.W. "Will" Fritz, Dallas Police Dept:

"Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember whether there was anyone else right at that time or not.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to Oswald and what he said to you?

Mr. FRITZ. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said to me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning those questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these notes and things that I have made I would have to make several days later, and the questions may be in the wrong place."

Yes, the notes were only discovered after Fritz's death. I would estimate he wrote them, and wrote them in the manner he did, just on the off chance any agency ever demanded to see them. As it turned out, such a demand never arose.

The mere fact the notes were written "several days later", once the alteration of evidence was well under way, calls into question their authenticity. As you yourself said, why make bogus notes, and attempt to make them appear hastily jotted down, several days after the assassination?

I think there may be something to this. The notes could have been created when Fritz was writing his report, with him trying to remember the questions he asked and then writing down the responses he received. This might help explain why the notes for these interviews were written on the same pages and in the same manner. It would also throw the argument Fritz's notes prove Oswald said he was "out front with Bill Shelley" at the time of the shots into the dumper.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Pat Speer

[David Von Pein]

You've obviously scared DVP quite badly by posting it. When he completely ignores something, you know it is Kryptonite to him.

Oh, that's not true at all. I ignore a whole lot of the junk you CTers post. I ignore most of it, in fact.

But, anyway, the "Lane/Baker" exchange that Jim D. posted was obviously just invented by Jim entirely. It was Jim's "What if Mark Lane had cross-examined Marrion Baker on the witness stand?" exercise.

I've performed several similar exercises with Vince Bugliosi in the role as prosecutor in "simulated" courtroom questioning. Such as this one (which is a simulation that assumes the Warren Commission had ALSO investigated the JFK case, even though a court trial was taking place too; but, it's just make-believe stuff anyway)....

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "Mrs. Markham, did you provide verbal testimony before

the Warren Commission panel in the year 1964, telling them what you

saw on Tenth Street in Oak Cliff/Dallas on November 22nd, 1963, as a

police officer was shot dead before your eyes?"

MRS. MARKHAM -- "Yes, sir."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "And did you tell the Commission at that time, in

1964, that the man you saw shoot and kill Officer J.D. Tippit in Oak

Cliff had "bushy" hair and was "stocky" in build?"

MRS. MARKHAM -- "No, sir...I did not say those things."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "Did you positively identify Officer Tippit's killer

as a man named Lee Harvey Oswald?"

MRS. MARKHAM -- "Yes, sir. I did."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "I now offer for this court's approval, as an exhibit,

a tape recording containing a telephone conversation said to have been

recorded by Mr. Mark Lane on March 2nd, 1964, just a little more than

three months after the assassination of President Kennedy and the

murder of Officer Tippit. I'd like to have that tape marked as an

official exhibit and I'd also like to play that tape for the jury, if

it pleases the court?"

THE COURT -- "The exhibit will be so marked. You may play the tape,

Mr. Bugliosi."

[Playing tape...A transcript of the tape recording can be found HERE.]

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "Now, Mrs. Markham, after just now having heard that

taped telephone conversation, do you recognize the female voice on the

recording as being your own voice?"

MRS. MARKHAM -- "Yes, that is me."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "Now, does the playing of this recording here in the

courtroom today refresh in your own mind that taped conversation that

you had in early March of 1964 with the lead defense attorney in this

case--Mr. Mark Lane--who is currently seated in front of you at the

defense counsel table?"

MRS. MARKHAM -- "Yes, I can recall the conversation now."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "Now, to reiterate a key point brought out on that

tape, did you at any time EVER say to any reporters who might have

interviewed you following November 22nd, 1963, that Officer Tippit's

killer was "stocky", "heavy", or a person who possessed "bushy hair"?"

MRS. MARKHAM -- "No, sir. I do not ever recall having used those words

to describe the man I saw shoot the policeman."

MR. BUGLIOSI -- "Thank you, Mrs. Markham. No further questions at this

time."

Edited July 17, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Robert Prudhomme]

LOL

Mark Lane: Mr. Baker, do you know the difference between a stair well and a lunch room?

Baker: Yes.

Lane: Let me show you a picture of a stairwell. (Shows him a stairwell in the TSBD)

Now, let me show you the lunchroom on the second floor.

Did you have any problem seeing those?

Baker: No.

Lane: Now, if I showed you the third floor stairwell or the fourth, do you think they would look different?

Baker: No.

Lane: Now, let me show you the photo of the lunch room again. Do you notice there is a door ajar here, do you notice the furniture, do you notice the soda machine?

Baker: Yes.

Lane: Now did you notice any of those things on the stair well photo?

Baker: No.

Lane: Have you ever in your entire life seen a stair well with this kind of furniture in it?

Baker: No.

Lane: Was there any door window on the stairwell that you looked through to see Oswald?

Baker: No.

Lane: So how could you possibly confuse one with the other?

Baker: Well, it wasn't easy. But I wanted to keep my job. I mean you saw what happened to Roger Craig.

Hi Jim

I've never seen this exchange between Mark Lane and Baker before. When did it take place?

You've obviously scared DVP quite badly by posting it. When he completely ignores something, you know it is Kryptonite to him.

How about it, Davey? Kind of an odd statement Baker makes right at the end there, eh what?

Jim made it up. I suspect he was trying to be funny.

I see. I wish people would give a little warning to tell us when something is not genuine.

[Robert Prudhomme]

It's a matter of timing, Dave, plus the fact Oswald was seen by a receptionist on the 2nd floor. Whomever Baker saw on the 4th floor (wearing a jacket that Oswald did not own) could not have been LHO, as he could not be seen by the receptionist PLUS be on the 4th floor.

Add to this it would look very suspicious for Oswald to have descended only two storeys in the time it took Baker to make his way to the 4th floor.

Fritz's notes, written to appear to be hastily jotted down during an interview, were actually written a week after the assassination. Bogus, and not a reliable source.

Why was Truly's affidavit taken on the 23rd, while almost every other TSBD gave their affidavits on the 22nd?

Not only was the interview with Curry filmed on the 23rd, at no point does Curry say where the encounter with Baker and Oswald took place. It could have been at the front door, for all we know. No matter, by the 23rd, the conspiracy was taking shape nicely. If this interview with Curry had taken place on the afternoon of the 22nd, I might take you seriously.

You got nothin', Dave.

You lost me on the line I've highlighted, Bob. Where did you get this? If I recall, Fritz's notes were only discovered after his death.

So why in heck would he make bogus notes, and write them in a manner suggesting they were original notes, and then fail to do anything with them?

From the Warren Commission testimony of Capt. J.W. "Will" Fritz, Dallas Police Dept:

"Mr. FRITZ. I don't remember whether there was anyone else right at that time or not.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what you said to Oswald and what he said to you?

Mr. FRITZ. I can remember the thing that I said to him and what he said to me, but I will have trouble telling you which period of questioning those questions were in because I kept no notes at the time, and these notes and things that I have made I would have to make several days later, and the questions may be in the wrong place."

Yes, the notes were only discovered after Fritz's death. I would estimate he wrote them, and wrote them in the manner he did, just on the off chance any agency ever demanded to see them. As it turned out, such a demand never arose.

The mere fact the notes were written "several days later", once the alteration of evidence was well under way, calls into question their authenticity. As you yourself said, why make bogus notes, and attempt to make them appear hastily jotted down, several days after the assassination?

I think there may be something to this. The notes could have been created when Fritz was writing his report, with him trying to remember the questions he asked and then writing down the responses he received. This might help explain why the notes for these interviews were written on the same pages and in the same manner. It would also throw the argument Fritz's notes prove Oswald said he was "out front with Bill Shelley" at the time of the shots into the dumper.

Or Fritz, in the days following the assassination, was in close contact with high ranking investigators from the FBI, SS, etc. and may have been a little embarrassed about not having taken any notes at the interrogation. (or not having a stenographer or tape recorder present either) He may have made his notes, several days later, to appear as if they were hastily jotted down at the interrogation, just in case he was ever pressed for them. As he was never asked for them, it is quite obvious why he never volunteered them. There were people present at the investigation that might have remarked, "Hey, Will, I was there the whole time. I don't recall you taking any notes."

Unfortunately, it would also throw the 2nd floor encounter with Baker into the dumpster, as well. Part of Fritz's notes say "claims 2nd floor Coke when off came in". We all know that Baker denied seeing a Coke in Oswald's hand. Did Fritz's notes get written before the Coke was written out of the story?

[Mark Knight]

So then...the term "second floor encounter" is nowhere to be found in the newspaper page you used to prove a "second floor encounter." Thank goodness; I though my eyes had failed me.

While I believe you DID intend to mislead by using the phrase, "second floor encounter" in conjunction with the newspaper page, I'll let you off the hook since I cannot prove intent.

I resent the implication in that remark, Mr. Knight. I NEVER deliberately misquote people, or newspapers, or anything else, with an intent to deceive. Never have. Never will.

I fully explained the reason I utilized the quote marks in that previous post. And I even cited TWO previous recent examples where I did exactly the same thing (and I certainly wasn't quoting the DMN in those posts; ergo, those quote marks were there for a different purpose---the very same purpose I intended in the DMN post).

Resent all you want.

I'm simply surprised you didn't double down, and use your "anyone with half a brain" argument...as in, "Anyone with half a brain could see they were talking about the second floor lunchroom encounter," despite the fact there was no mention of the second floor at all. I'm totally SHOCKED that you failed to go there with your "explanation." That wasn't like you at all.

You're the one who has built these expectations of your style of debate...based entirely, of course, on your style of debate.

And I still believe that, had Tommy and I not called you on this, that's exactly where you would have left things.

[David Von Pein]

Mark,

Actually, that "anyone with half a brain" argument isn't too bad. Maybe I should have used those words. (But this being a moderated forum, I'm always walking on eggshells, of course, so such a comment might not fly too well here. So I'm always careful not to heap on the insults in large doses.)

But, yes, since the SUM TOTAL of the Baker & Truly & Oswald (through Fritz) statements positively indicates that the "encounter" did take place on the SECOND floor and no other floor of the Book Depository, you could, indeed, look upon that previous post of mine that you seem to have a problem with (where I put "second-floor encounter" in quotation marks) as representing substitute wording in lieu of using these precise words Mark Knight just now used....

" "Anyone with half a brain could see they were talking about the second floor lunchroom encounter," despite the fact there was no mention of the second floor at all." -- M. Knight; 7/17/15

Not bad, Mark. In fact, given the obvious fact that the encounter did occur on the second floor, that quote of yours above fits like a glove. Thanks.

Edited July 17, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Kenneth Drew]

Name one CTer that has stated that they don't believe ANY encounter occurred between Truly Baker and Oswald. I don't believe you can come up with a name.

Huh? Are you really this thick, Ken? Really?

Try DiEugenio for starters....

"Baker never saw Oswald." -- James DiEugenio; July 13, 2015

And, as I said, it's obvious Prudhomme thinks there was no Baker/Truly/Oswald encounter at all (as I proved in my previous post about this, which you obviously totally ignored).

And it's fairly clear that Mark Knight doesn't believe in the Baker/Oswald meeting either. If he did, he wouldn't be fighting so hard to win an argument in this thread. He would be keeping silent. But he's not.

And Tommy Graves is also a member of the "No Baker/LHO Encounter At All" club, as we can see HERE.

Pat Speer, however, is a reasonable CTer (and getting more reasonable by the day, based on several of his very good posts here at EF recently). He believes that Baker encountered Oswald, just as all other rational people do.

So, you're still batting a perfect .000, Ken. Somebody should have benched you for the whole season while you were still down in Florida for spring training.

while you were still down in Florida for spring training. So you have evidence I was in Florida for spring training? I'd say it's about as good as most of your 'evidence'.

[Kenneth Drew]

That's kinda like Tippet was killed at 1:05...

Irony alert!

Kenny is punishing the DMN for inaccurate reporting in a post in which he mangles Tippit's name.

Ken must take lessons in being a punching bag.

Kenny is punishing the DMN for inaccurate reporting in a post in which he mangles Tippit's name. I've seen it spelled several ways over the years, when you post a certified copy of his birth certificate with the correct spelling, I'll go with that. You don't want me to start pointing out every time you have a 'misspelled' word, do you?

[Kenneth Drew]

LOL

Mark Lane: Mr. Baker, do you know the difference between a stair well and a lunch room?

Baker: Yes.

Lane: Let me show you a picture of a stairwell. (Shows him a stairwell in the TSBD)

Now, let me show you the lunchroom on the second floor.

Did you have any problem seeing those?

Baker: No.

Lane: Now, if I showed you the third floor stairwell or the fourth, do you think they would look different?

Baker: No.

Lane: Now, let me show you the photo of the lunch room again. Do you notice there is a door ajar here, do you notice the furniture, do you notice the soda machine?

Baker: Yes.

Lane: Now did you notice any of those things on the stair well photo?

Baker: No.

Lane: Have you ever in your entire life seen a stair well with this kind of furniture in it?

Baker: No.

Lane: Was there any door window on the stairwell that you looked through to see Oswald?

Baker: No.

Lane: So how could you possibly confuse one with the other?

Baker: Well, it wasn't easy. But I wanted to keep my job. I mean you saw what happened to Roger Craig.

Hi Jim

I've never seen this exchange between Mark Lane and Baker before. When did it take place?

You've obviously scared DVP quite badly by posting it. When he completely ignores something, you know it is Kryptonite to him.

How about it, Davey? Kind of an odd statement Baker makes right at the end there, eh what?

Jim made it up. I suspect he was trying to be funny.

I see. I wish people would give a little warning to tell us when something is not genuine.

I see. I wish people would give a little warning to tell us when something is not genuine. Ok, here's a warning. If DVP says it, it's likely made up.

[David Von Pein]

I've seen it [J.D. Tippit's last name] spelled several ways over the years...

Only because people are too lazy to confirm the correct spelling.

A quick way to recall how to spell Tippit's name is to remember this---

His last name is spelled exactly the same BACKWARD as it is FORWARD.

...when you post a certified copy of his birth certificate with the correct spelling, I'll go with that.

Maybe Tippit's gravestone will give you a hint....

You don't want me to start pointing out every time you have a 'misspelled' word, do you?

Good luck with that task.

Edited July 17, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Kenneth Drew]

Mark,

Actually, that "anyone with half a brain" argument isn't too bad. Maybe I should have used those words. (But this being a moderated forum, I'm always walking on eggshells, of course, so such a comment might not fly too well here. So I'm always careful not to heap on the insults in large doses.)

But, yes, since the SUM TOTAL of the Baker & Truly & Oswald (through Fritz) statements positively indicates that the "encounter" did take place on the SECOND floor and no other floor of the Book Depository, you could, indeed, look upon that previous post of mine that you seem to have a problem with (where I put "second-floor encounter" in quotation marks) as representing substitute wording in lieu of using these precise words Mark Knight just now used....

" "Anyone with half a brain could see they were talking about the second floor lunchroom encounter," despite the fact there was no mention of the second floor at all." -- M. Knight; 7/17/15

Not bad, Mark. In fact, given the obvious fact that the encounter did occur on the second floor, that quote of yours above fits like a glove. Thanks.

Actually, that "anyone with half a brain" argument isn't too bad. But the argument with you is when you have your two brain cells rubbing together.

[Kenneth Drew]

I've seen it [J.D. Tippit's last name] spelled several ways over the years...

Only because people are too lazy to confirm the correct spelling.

A quick way to recall how to spell Tippit's name is to remember this---

His last name is spelled exactly the same BACKWARD as it is FORWARD.

...when you post a certified copy of his birth certificate with the correct spelling, I'll go with that.

Maybe Tippit's gravestone will give you a hint....

You don't want me to start pointing out every time you have a 'misspelled' word, do you?

Good luck with that task.

A quick way to recall how to spell Tippit's name is to remember this---

His last name is spelled exactly the same BACKWARD as it is FORWARD. So when I'm writing and Tippit's name comes up, I'm supposed to remember that there is a saying I'm supposed to remember to know the correct way to spell it? So when you spell it backwards, do you still put the s at the end or does it go at the beginning? Oh, and one other difference, the first t is capital, the last one is not. If you reverse the spelling it would start with a small t, that would be incorrect.

Maybe Tippit's gravestone will give you a hint.... not likely unless you show us a certified birth certificate that shows it spelled the same as the tombstone.

Edited July 17, 2015 by Kenneth Drew

[David Von Pein]

So when I'm writing and Tippit's name comes up, I'm supposed to remember that there is a saying I'm supposed to remember to know the correct way to spell it?

Yes. Exactly.

It's just a little memory trick. Kind of like the "trick" regarding the EF posts of somebody named Kenneth Drew, who keeps posting bogus nonsense about how DVP has never posted a single solitary piece of evidence to support Lee Harvey Oswald's guilt. When I see such a post by Kenny Drew, my "memory trick" automatically comes to the forefront. (Unfortunately, this being a moderated forum, I can't post what that memory trick entails. Sorry.)

So when you spell it backwards, do you still put the s at the end or does it go at the beginning?

Huh? You think his name has an S at the end, do you?

Oh, and one other difference, the first t is capital, the last one is not...

Well, Duh!!

Kenny, The Picker Of Nits strikes again.

Edited July 17, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Kenneth Drew]

So when I'm writing and Tippit's name comes up, I'm supposed to remember that there is a saying I'm supposed to remember to know the correct way to spell it?

Yes. Exactly.

So when you spell it backwards, do you still put the s at the end or does it go at the beginning?

Huh? You think his name has an S at the end, do you?

Oh, and one other difference, the first t is capital, the last one is not...

Well, Duh!!

Kenny, The Picker Of Nits strikes again.

Oh, and one other difference, the first t is capital, the last one is not...

Well, Duh!! Obviously your two cells weren't sparking when you wrote that. So if the name starts with a capital letter one way and a small letter the other way then they are not the same and it would have been a waste of time to remember your saying.

so when I'm writing and Tippit's name comes up, You're the one that put the s on the end.