Why Does DVP Rattle Cages Here?

[Glenn Nall]

there's no inbetween with him - a person is either accurate or they're a l-i-a-r. this is why using reason with him is pointless.

[Glenn Nall]

I would just like to comment that I appreciate knowing the thoughts of people who disagree with me. Usually, their debate makes mine stronger and that's a good thing. I see Mr. Von Pein this way. He has never been rude to me in the years we've been on the same forums. I applaud his passion in his belief. What I would like to ask you all and him is this. If one were to find DPD reports, coroner photos, or FBI letters and files at this late date, would they be guffawed as tainted evidence or would they be accepted? With so many local Dallas people dying day by day (Just recently, Bill Alexander, Bobby Joe Dale and H.B. McClain) some evidence could likely be found later by members of their family. How will the community take this in your estimation? Thanks in advance for your replies.

i'm always glad to see something contemporary, Gayle, and I take everything I come across at face value, considering the source where possible. I'd like to think that any reasonable person would take it item by item. no one WANTS the stuff to be tainted. but caution is necessary.

[Thomas Graves]

So, Tommy, are you really suggesting that Baker DIDN'T see the real Lee Oswald on the 2nd floor of the TSBD? Is that what you're saying?

And btw, Oswald's weight at his autopsy was estimated at "150 pounds". Not 131-132 lbs.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0013a.htm

His "estimated weight" at autopsy was 150 pounds. Nice round number. Kinda non committal right in the middle like that.

Whereas his cadaver was an exactly-measured 5' 9 1/2" "tall" and weighed an exact 131 pounds on 11/25/63 when his fingerprints were taken by the Dallas Police Department.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=961#relPageId=389&tab=page

Look how skinny he is here. He sure doesn't look like he packing 150 pounds on his 5' 9 1/2" frame, does he?

--Tommy

Edited July 13, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[David Von Pein]

His [Lee Harvey Oswald's] "estimated weight" at autopsy was 150 pounds. Nice round number. Kinda non committal right in the middle like that.

Whereas his cadaver was an exactly-measured 5' 9 1/2" "tall" and weighed an exact 131 pounds on 11/25/63 when his fingerprints were taken by the Dallas Police Department.

You're a bit mixed up, Tommy. On 11/25/63, Oswald was already six feet under at Rose Hill Cemetery in Fort Worth. (Well, actually, he was buried on that exact day.) And nobody took Lee's fingerprints on Nov. 25. Those prints were taken of the living Oswald on Nov. 22.

Commission Exhibit No. 630 [below] was dated "11-25-63", after his death, yes. But his prints most certainly weren't taken on Nov. 25.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0156a.htm

It's obvious that some of the info on that fingerprint card (CE630) was acquired when Oswald was still alive. Note the "Refused To Sign" remark on the same document. And I doubt that refers to Oswald's corpse. Most dead people wouldn't be able to "refuse to sign" anything. Because they're dead.

So the "131 lbs." weight figure on his fingerprint card couldn't possibly have been obtained on Nov. 25 either. LHO was in a casket the whole day. And the autopsy report's "estimated 150 pounds" weight is the only official weight figure I know of for LHO after his death. And if they weighed the corpse on a scale, why the need to "estimate" the weight in the official autopsy report? Makes no sense.

Edited July 13, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Glenn Nall]

so, D., you're trying to say he gained 19 lbs since he gave those fingerprints and then died...?

i wanna hear how that happened.

(if i gotta gain 20 lbs when I die then i KNOW i don't want to!)

Edited July 13, 2015 by Glenn Nall

[Pat Speer]

[...]

I'm asking because it's nutty to think Marrion Baker saw anyone OTHER than Lee Oswald on 11/22/63 on the SECOND FLOOR. That's a FACT confirmed by Roy S. Truly.

Is Truly a l-i-a-r too, Tommy?

A trained observer like a police officer who mistakes a 5' 9" / 5' 10," 135-pound man for a 165-pound man is either incompetent or a prevaricator, David.

Which do you prefer?

Robert Prudhomme has recently shown that Baker didn't run up the TSBD front steps in the Darnell film, but Truly testified that he followed Baker through the front door.

To nip this argument in the bud, yes, David, I believe that Baker and Truly prevaricated about their "Oswald encounter."

--Tommy

I've read a lot regarding eyewitness testimony, Tommy, and there's nothing to your contention Baker would be less likely to misjudge a man's size than a non-police officer. Motorcycle cops are not "trained" to guess people's weight anymore than bank tellers or grease monkeys.

[Thomas Graves]

His "estimated weight" at autopsy was 150 pounds. Nice round number. Kinda non committal right in the middle like that.

Whereas his cadaver was an exactly-measured 5' 9 1/2" "tall" and weighed an exact 131 pounds on 11/25/63 when his fingerprints were taken by the Dallas Police Department.

You're a bit mixed up, Tommy. On 11/25/63, Oswald was already six feet under at Rose Hill Cemetery in Fort Worth. (Well, actually, he was buried on that exact day.) And nobody took Lee's fingerprints on Nov. 25. Those prints were taken of the living Oswald on Nov. 22.

CE630 [below] was dated "11-25-63", after his death, yes. But his prints most certainly weren't taken on Nov. 25.

It's obvious that some of the info on that fingerprint card (CE630) was acquired when Oswald was still alive. Note the "Refused To Sign" remark on the same document. And I doubt that refers to Oswald's corpse. Most dead people wouldn't be able to "refuse to sign" anything. Because they're dead.

So the "131 lbs." weight figure on his fingerprint card couldn't possibly have been obtained on Nov. 25 either. And the autopsy report's "estimated 150 pounds" weight is the only official weight figure I know of for LHO after his death. And if they weighed the corpse on a scale, why the need to "estimate" the weight in the official autopsy report? Makes no sense.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh17/html/WH_Vol17_0156a.htm

OK, David. Touche. LOL!

So, when do you think Oswald was measured as being 5' 9 1/2" tall and weighing 131 pounds by the Dallas Police Department? Wasn't this the first time he'd been "booked" at the DPD?

If they took his fingerprints when he was still alive on 11/22/63, isn't it reasonable to assume that that's when they measured his height and weight, too?

Regardless, the "131 pounds" sounds like a more exact measurement that the garden-variety "estimated 150 pounds," wouldn't you agree, especially when written in conjunction with the height of 69.5 inches (5' 9 1/2") ?

Assuming Oswald was 5' 9 1/2" tall, do you think he weighs 150 pounds in the photo below?

How could the trained observer, police officer Marion Baker, think that the guy below weighed 165 pounds? How could Howard Brennan think the guy below weighed 160 to 170 pounds? How could the mysterious witness who claimed to have seen the "165 pound" assassin running away from the rear of the TSBD believe that the man he saw was the guy below?

--Tommy

Hey, I have an idea! Let's have a poll!

How many members think Oswald weighed closer to 131 pounds than 150 pounds on 11/22/63?

I say he weighed much closer to 131. Like spot on.

Please see my new thread: "How Much Do You Think Oswald Weighed On 11/22/63?"

Edited July 13, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[David Von Pein]

So, when do you think Oswald was measured as being 5' 9 1/2" tall and weighing 131 pounds by the Dallas Police Department?

I really don't know. I'm puzzled by those figures too (69.5 inches and 131 lbs. exactly). I was looking through the WC exhibits relating to the cards that Oswald had on him when he was arrested, and I was thinking that one of those cards might have had that height and weight information on them. But I didn't find any such document or card. But I'm thinking there might be one.

But I suppose it's also possible the DPD put Oswald on a scale and also measured his height as part of the routine procedure when booking a suspect who has been arrested. (Is it routine to "weigh in" the suspects after they're arrested? I haven't the foggiest idea. But maybe they did. That info could be in the WC testimony of some DPD personnel, I suppose.)

But the whole topic about Marrion Baker seeing somebody OTHER than the real Lee Oswald on the 2nd floor is simply CTer desperation in full-fledged panic mode. Nothing more than that.

As I proved earlier, it was certainly possible for a person to stare right at Lee Harvey Oswald and guess his AGE and WEIGHT incorrectly. And Marrion L. Baker's 11/22/63 affidavit is the PROOF that that did happen. And, as fate would have it, Howard Brennan said the sixth-floor assassin was around 30 years of age and weighed about 165 to 175 pounds....perfectly matching Baker's inaccurate guesses with respect to the real Lee Harvey Oswald. And Mr. Oswald just happened to be a man whose fingerprints (and bullet shells) littered the exact same place where Brennan saw his "30-year-old, 165- to 175-pound" assassin in the window firing a rifle.

How 'bout that for coincidence?

Edited July 13, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Thomas Graves]

So, when do you think Oswald was measured as being 5' 9 1/2" tall and weighing 131 pounds by the Dallas Police Department?

I really don't know. I'm puzzled by those figures too (69.5 inches and 131 lbs. exactly). I was looking through the WC exhibits relating to the cards that Oswald had on him when he was arrested, and I was thinking that one of those cards might have had that height and weight information on them. But I didn't find any such document or card. But I'm thinking there might be one.

But I suppose it's also possible the DPD put Oswald on a scale and also measured his height as part of the routine procedure when booking a suspect who has been arrested. (Is it routine to "weigh in" the suspects after they're arrested? I haven't the foggiest idea. But maybe they did. That info could be in the WC testimony of some DPD personnel, I suppose.)

But the whole topic about Marrion Baker seeing somebody OTHER than the real Lee Oswald on the 2nd floor is simply CTer desperation in full-fledged panic mode. Nothing more than that.

As I proved earlier, it was certainly possible for a person to stare right at Lee Harvey Oswald and guess his AGE and WEIGHT incorrectly. And Baker's 11/22 affidavit is the PROOF that that did happen. And, as fate would have it, Howard Brennan said the sixth-floor assassin was around 30 years of age and weighed about 160 to 170 pounds....perfectly matching Baker's inaccurate guesses with respect to the real Lee Harvey Oswald....who is a man (Oswald, that is) whose fingerprints (and bullet shells) littered the exact same place where Brennan saw his "30-year-old, 160 to 170-pound" assassin in the window firing a rifle.

How 'bout that for coincidence?

David,

Thanks for admitting you don't have the foggiest idea about those measurements of Oswald that were written on his fingerprint card on 11/22/63.

Just because Baker said the man he encountered on the 2nd floor (Oswald?) or more likely on the 4th floor (Tan Jacket Man / Brown Coat Man?) weighed "about 165 pounds" and this figure seemed to dovetail with key witness Howard Leslie Brennan's "calculations" of "160 to 170 pounds" for the assassin (even though he "viewed," from far below and at a horrible angle, the assassin, standing and shooting through an impossible-to-shoot-through-from-a-standing-position dirty, partially-opened, low widow) doesn't necessarily mean that Baker and Brennan were both talking about Oswald or that the descriptions they gave even supported each other's description of Oswald / The Assassin.

It's more plausible, IMHO, that Baker and Brennan were coached, maybe even beforehand, on the descriptions (based on a 1960 Lee Harvey Oswald FBI / CIA "marked card" in which Oswald was described as being a Robert E. Webster-like 5' 10", 165 pounds) they were to give the authorities in order to incriminate Oswald, or that Baker was talking about the probable assassin (Tan jacket man / Brown Coat Man) he'd encountered (and whom Truly may have innocently or criminally vouched for) on the fourth floor. As for Brennan, I think he was either guessing (accurately as it turned out, about Tan Jacket Man / Brown Coat man at the sixth-floor window) or had been coached on what to say according to (luckily for us - inaccurate) Oswald "marked card" information in a nearly-bungled attempt to incriminate Oswald. I say "luckily for us" because if this interpretation is correct, it points us in the direction of the FBI and the CIA and Army Intel. The FBI, after all, had helped the CIA create the "marked card" in the first place when they interviewed Marguerite Oswald about seven months after her son had "defected" to Russia and in so doing falsely ascribed to her the incorrect Lee Harvey Oswald Webster-like measurements http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=6665&relPageId=8 which were passed on to the CIA's Ann Egerter of CI/SIG and Bill Bright of SR/6/Biographics who quickly integrated the Oswald "marked card" biometrics into the CIA's computerized Central Registry. (It's interesting to note that Marguerite said after the assassination that her son, Lee Harvey Oswald, "never weighed more than 150 pounds in his life." Well, she should know. How likely is it that she told the FBI's John W. Fain that LHO weighed 165 pounds?)

For more background on the Oswald "marked card" and some other interesting stuff, see "Part 5: The Double Dangle" from The JFK Case: The Twelve Who Built The Oswald Legend by Bill Simpich: http://www.opednews.com/articles/THE-JFK-CASE--THE-TWELVE-by-Bill-Simpich-101226-568.html

It's interesting to note that facially Webster and Oswald looked alike, making Webster's biometrics ideally-suited to ascribe to Oswald in a "dangle" - "marked card" operation :

--Tommy

PS Here's Brennan's testimony: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/brennan.htm

The pertinent part:

Mr. BELIN. Could you describe the man you saw in the window on the sixth floor?

Mr. BRENNAN. To my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly 5-foot 10.

Mr. BELIN. About what weight?

Mr. BRENNAN. Oh, at--I calculated, I think, from 160 to 170 pounds.

PPS I wouldn't call a man who was 5' 10" and 160 to 170 pounds "slender."

Edited July 13, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

I'm asking because it's nutty to think Marrion Baker saw anyone OTHER than Lee Oswald on 11/22/63 on the SECOND FLOOR. That's a FACT confirmed by Roy S. Truly.

Is Truly a l-i-a-r too, Tommy?

A trained observer like a police officer who mistakes a 5' 9" / 5' 10," 135-pound man for a 165-pound man is either incompetent or a prevaricator, David.

Which do you prefer?

Robert Prudhomme has recently shown that Baker didn't run up the TSBD front steps in the Darnell film, but Truly testified that he followed Baker through the front door.

To nip this argument in the bud, yes, David, I believe that Baker and Truly prevaricated about their "Oswald encounter."

--Tommy

I've read a lot regarding eyewitness testimony, Tommy, and there's nothing to your contention Baker would be less likely to misjudge a man's size than a non-police officer. Motorcycle cops are not "trained" to guess people's weight anymore than bank tellers or grease monkeys.

Are cops trained (or at least encouraged) to be good observers, Pat?

Do they have to write lots of reports about the people they have to deal with in criminal situations?

Aren't they expected to describe these people accurately in their reports?

Are you aware of your own height and weight?

When you meet someone who is significantly lighter or heavier than you, do you take notice, Pat?

If so, don't you think that Baker, looking for the sniper about a minute-and-a-half after the final shot would have been even more likely than you or I to take note of the fact that the "Oswald" he allegedly confronted in the second-floor lunch room was really only a puny 131-ish lbs?

Do you think you would have described the 5'9" - 5'10" Lee Harvey Oswald as weighing "about 165 pounds" if you had confronted him like Baker claimed he'd encountered him on 11/22/63?

--Tommy

Edited July 13, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Pat Speer]

[...]

I'm asking because it's nutty to think Marrion Baker saw anyone OTHER than Lee Oswald on 11/22/63 on the SECOND FLOOR. That's a FACT confirmed by Roy S. Truly.

Is Truly a l-i-a-r too, Tommy?

A trained observer like a police officer who mistakes a 5' 9" / 5' 10," 135-pound man for a 165-pound man is either incompetent or a prevaricator, David.

Which do you prefer?

Robert Prudhomme has recently shown that Baker didn't run up the TSBD front steps in the Darnell film, but Truly testified that he followed Baker through the front door.

To nip this argument in the bud, yes, David, I believe that Baker and Truly prevaricated about their "Oswald encounter."

--Tommy

I've read a lot regarding eyewitness testimony, Tommy, and there's nothing to your contention Baker would be less likely to misjudge a man's size than a non-police officer. Motorcycle cops are not "trained" to guess people's weight anymore than bank tellers or grease monkeys.

Are cops trained (or at least encouraged) to be good observers, Pat?

--Tommy

Like I said, I've read a lot about eyewitness testimony. I'm pretty sure it was Professor Elizabeth Loftus who studied the accuracy and impact of police as witnesses. As I recall, she found that jurors gave far more credence to the testimony of police officers than warranted under the mistaken belief they were "trained observers" and wouldn't make the mistakes of others. As I recall, she found that race entered into this as well, whereby a white cop would be far less likely to accurately identify a black suspect than a black cop or even a black bystander. Not that this enters into this discussion...

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

I'm asking because it's nutty to think Marrion Baker saw anyone OTHER than Lee Oswald on 11/22/63 on the SECOND FLOOR. That's a FACT confirmed by Roy S. Truly.

Is Truly a l-i-a-r too, Tommy?

A trained observer like a police officer who mistakes a 5' 9" / 5' 10," 135-pound man for a 165-pound man is either incompetent or a prevaricator, David.

Which do you prefer?

Robert Prudhomme has recently shown that Baker didn't run up the TSBD front steps in the Darnell film, but Truly testified that he followed Baker through the front door.

To nip this argument in the bud, yes, David, I believe that Baker and Truly prevaricated about their "Oswald encounter."

--Tommy

I've read a lot regarding eyewitness testimony, Tommy, and there's nothing to your contention Baker would be less likely to misjudge a man's size than a non-police officer. Motorcycle cops are not "trained" to guess people's weight anymore than bank tellers or grease monkeys.

Are cops trained (or at least encouraged) to be good observers, Pat?

Do they have to write lots of reports about the people they have to deal with in criminal situations?

Aren't they expected to describe these people accurately in their reports?

Are you aware of your own height and weight?

When you meet someone who is significantly lighter or heavier than you, do you take notice, Pat?

If so, don't you think that Baker, looking for the sniper about a minute-and-a-half after the final shot would have been even more likely than you or I to take note of the fact that the "Oswald" he allegedly confronted in the second-floor lunch room was as skinny as he appears in the photo below?

Do you think you would have described the 5'9" - 5'10" Lee Harvey Oswald, below, as weighing "about 165 pounds" if you had confronted him like Baker claimed he had confronted him on 1/22/63?

--Tommy

Edited while Pat was posting; bumped for Pat.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Glenn Nall]

So, when do you think Oswald was measured as being 5' 9 1/2" tall and weighing 131 pounds by the Dallas Police Department?

I really don't know. I'm puzzled by those figures too (69.5 inches and 131 lbs. exactly). I was looking through the WC exhibits relating to the cards that Oswald had on him when he was arrested, and I was thinking that one of those cards might have had that height and weight information on them. But I didn't find any such document or card. But I'm thinking there might be one.

But I suppose it's also possible the DPD put Oswald on a scale and also measured his height as part of the routine procedure when booking a suspect who has been arrested. (Is it routine to "weigh in" the suspects after they're arrested? I haven't the foggiest idea. But maybe they did. That info could be in the WC testimony of some DPD personnel, I suppose.)

But the whole topic about Marrion Baker seeing somebody OTHER than the real Lee Oswald on the 2nd floor is simply CTer desperation in full-fledged panic mode. Nothing more than that.

As I proved earlier, it was certainly possible for a person to stare right at Lee Harvey Oswald and guess his AGE and WEIGHT incorrectly. And Marrion L. Baker's 11/22/63 affidavit is the PROOF that that did happen. And, as fate would have it, Howard Brennan said the sixth-floor assassin was around 30 years of age and weighed about 165 to 175 pounds....perfectly matching Baker's inaccurate guesses with respect to the real Lee Harvey Oswald. And Mr. Oswald just happened to be a man whose fingerprints (and bullet shells) littered the exact same place where Brennan saw his "30-year-old, 165- to 175-pound" assassin in the window firing a rifle.

How 'bout that for coincidence?

if you're puzzled by those figures, then why were you so quick to say that Thomas was a bit mixed up? i had asked, "are you trying to say he gained 19 lbs since he gave those fingerprints and then died...?" (which was ignored) and by that was saying the same things that Thomas declared - it seems more likely that LHO was closer to 131 lbs than to 150.

you're quick to point out others' apparent errors even when you're puzzled by the material you use to do so. very solid technique there, D.

[David Von Pein]

Glenn,

I said Tommy was "mixed up" because he was. And he knows that now too. Tommy was claiming things were happening to the dead body of Lee Oswald on Nov. 25 that could not have been happening to Oswald on Nov. 25, because Lee was inside a casket that whole day.

That's what I meant by "mixed up".

[David Von Pein]

It's more plausible, IMHO, that Baker and Brennan were coached, maybe even beforehand, on the descriptions (based on a 1960 Lee Harvey Oswald FBI / CIA "marked card" in which Oswald was described as being a Robert E. Webster-like 5' 10", 165 pounds) they were to give the authorities in order to incriminate Oswald...

So you're pretty much saying the patsy-framers screwed up pretty badly, huh? They were trying to frame the very skinny, 131-pound Lee Oswald, but they used a 165-pound person as their "Oswald double"? Is that it?

And you think BOTH Baker and Brennan were "coached"?

And what about Roy Truly? Was he "coached" to say the encounter occurred on the second floor too?

Tommy, that's a lot of unprovable and unfounded speculation on your part, don't you think?

You have no GOOD reason to think Marrion Baker was "coached". Why would you even suggest such a thing?

I'll answer my last question myself --- You NEED to suggest it in order for your conspiracy theory to work.

So--voila!--Baker was "coached".

Not very persuasive, Tommy.