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I have a question which I'm not sure anybody has specifically addressed before.

What is your current best judgment regarding the number of persons who had some sort of knowledge regarding a specific plot to murder JFK?

Let me be clear: I am asking for your estimate of the grand total number of individuals who fall into the following categories:

1. Actual plotters (persons who met and conspired to create a plan to murder JFK)

2. Actual participants (persons who executed the plot i.e. they were directly responsible for murdering JFK)

3, Acquaintances (persons whom were aware of the plot because of their relationships with persons in #1 and #2; this could be relatives, friends, or others)

4. Coverup-ers (persons who had some specific knowledge about persons in one or more categories above ( #1 - #3) --- but they never revealed their knowledge to anyone

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GN: seeing Barr speak on one of those films, i felt that he carries a good degree of plausibility and respectability.

Until you read his book. I mean what a pile of trash.

​Ernie: the Tea Party is not just a reincarnation of the JBS. The Birch Society was really a small scale grass roots movement. I mean they actually had local bookstores to raise funds.

​The Tea Party was founded with big money from above. With allies in the media at Fox. The modern GOP knows how to create astroturf movements, that is fake grass roots.

I'll take your word for his book being rubbish. I have too many in line to think about reading it anytime soon.

I'm trying very hard to respect your contributions to this subject as objective and responsible and effortful. your continuing leftist agenda is making it difficult.

before you rebut: doesn't matter whether what you're saying is accurate or not. the way you're putting it reeks of agenda, which is not necessary and in fact, not constructive in seeking an otherwise common goal.

I cannot think that the Tea Party today can have a remote connection to the assassination of JFK, even IF JBS did it. which they didn't.

i know for a fact that my passionate conservative world-views have NOTHING to do with my desire to find and punish someone who may still be held culpable in this thing. I'd like to think political opinions can be left out of this, just because there's a chance to take a shot at some Republicans.

do not for a second think that there are not plenty more opportunities to take some shots at some Democrats. I just let em go.

if i misunderstood that last comment, then i apologize. but i don't think i misunderstood the spirit with which it was made.

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GN: seeing Barr speak on one of those films, i felt that he carries a good degree of plausibility and respectability.

Until you read his book. I mean what a pile of trash.

​Ernie: the Tea Party is not just a reincarnation of the JBS. The Birch Society was really a small scale grass roots movement. I mean they actually had local bookstores to raise funds.

​The Tea Party was founded with big money from above. With allies in the media at Fox. The modern GOP knows how to create astroturf movements, that is fake grass roots.

Jim: Not sure what you mean by "small scale"....

(1) At one point, the JBS bookstores were the largest bookstore operation in our country.

(2) The JBS Speakers Bureau was comprised of literally scores of individuals who gave hundreds of speeches around the country every year and, often, local media did not mention that they were paid speakers under the auspices of the JBS

(3) In 1964, the CPA firm used by the JBS reported the following income:

John Birch Society = $1,682,517

Robert Welch Inc

(publishing house of JBS) = $1,096,912

So, for that one year alone, JBS income was $2,779,429. In today's dollars, that would be $20,962,561 !!!

(4) The JBS had chapters in every state of our country and some chapters in foreign countries. Members dues income in 1964 was $536,566 (about $4,046,801 in today's dollars) and financial contributions were $875,220 (about $6.6 million in today's dollars).

(5) Perhaps more importantly, as was the case with the Communist Party --- the JBS had about 10 times as many state-of-mind members/supporters as actual dues-paying members.

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I have a question which I'm not sure anybody has specifically addressed before.

What is your current best judgment regarding the number of persons who had some sort of knowledge regarding a specific plot to murder JFK?

Let me be clear: I am asking for your estimate of the grand total number of individuals who fall into the following categories:

1. Actual plotters (persons who met and conspired to create a plan to murder JFK)

2. Actual participants (persons who executed the plot i.e. they were directly responsible for murdering JFK)

3, Acquaintances (persons whom were aware of the plot because of their relationships with persons in #1 and #2; this could be relatives, friends, or others)

4. Coverup-ers (persons who had some specific knowledge about persons in one or more categories above ( #1 - #3) --- but they never revealed their knowledge to anyone

how very interesting. this question comes to my mind occasionally, for some reason. I'm still way too far from a concrete theory to have a good guess at this number. when i'm reading about Cuba and Frank Sturgis and Allen Dulles and Mary Bancroft and Michael Paine, i think there's got to be a coupla hundred that were in some way knowledgeable, before and after the act.

at other times i can't help but think of the higher risks involved with higher numbers of people who know "too much." this of course points to a strong "need to know" policy with it all. some people knew some stuff, but didn't even know what knowing this stuff meant.

i read this article last night about the bullet being superimposed onto the autopsy x-ray, and an assistant to the radiologist who described reshooting the x-rays with little pieces of bullet taped to them. and thought this guys at that moment knows something, yet has no idea what he knows.

maybe as few as ten who really pulled strings and hired hitmen and had discussions with Chief Justices - oh, wait. There's only one Chief Justice. Oh well... ok, ten "leaders."

or as many as "one hundred?" egads...

this question really leads to one of levels of knowledge, i think. like that hourglass analogy that someone described somewhere in here.

Edited by Glenn Nall

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...After the HSCA, there was a wave of Mob did it books: Blakey, Scheim, and then Davis.

Starting with Barr McClellan and his "I know Lyndon Johnson Killed John Kennedy" spiel on TV, there was a wave of LBJ did it books, including his own, Nelson's and Stone's.

Now, the title of this book is General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: The Extensive new evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy.

Which recalls the title of a book by Livingstone. Now, with that title I don't know how else you can classify this book except by saying that Walker and the rightwing nuts in Texas and their associated groups killed Kennedy. If that is not the case then the title is a misnomer.

It is always off-putting when it takes a Waldronesque 900 pages to describe a plot to kill Kennedy.

First, I'd like to extend a warm welcome to you, James DiEugenio, in your return to the FORUM in general, and especially to this interesting thread.

Having spoken with Dr. Caufield occasionally during the past two years or so, I can agree fully with your assessment -- with a title like that, one must surely shine a floodlight on the Radical Right in Dallas with regard to the JFK murder, with a special spotlight on resigned Major General Edwin Walker.

I'm unaware of any other major publication along these lines, and yet, Jim, you mentioned Livingstone -- most likely meaning Harrison Edward Livingstone who recently died in February of this year. Also, you probably meant this book:

THE RADICAL RIGHT AND THE MURDER OF JOHN F. KENNEDY (2006)

Is that correct? I'm unfamiliar with this book, but I'd rush out to buy a copy today. Does Livingstone mention Edwin Walker other than in passing (as most JFK literature does)?

As for the 900 page barrier -- I think that if one hopes to correct the errors of 50 years of misguided JFK research, that one would need at least that volume.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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GN: seeing Barr speak on one of those films, i felt that he carries a good degree of plausibility and respectability.

Until you read his book. I mean what a pile of trash.

​Ernie: the Tea Party is not just a reincarnation of the JBS. The Birch Society was really a small scale grass roots movement. I mean they actually had local bookstores to raise funds.

​The Tea Party was founded with big money from above. With allies in the media at Fox. The modern GOP knows how to create astroturf movements, that is fake grass roots.

Jim: Not sure what you mean by "small scale"....

(1) At one point, the JBS bookstores were the largest bookstore operation in our country.

(2) The JBS Speakers Bureau was comprised of literally scores of individuals who gave hundreds of speeches around the country every year and, often, local media did not mention that they were paid speakers under the auspices of the JBS

(3) In 1964, the CPA firm used by the JBS reported the following income:

John Birch Society = $1,682,517

Robert Welch Inc

(publishing house of JBS) = $1,096,912

So, for that one year alone, JBS income was $2,779,429. In today's dollars, that would be $20,962,561 !!!

(4) The JBS had chapters in every state of our country and some chapters in foreign countries. Members dues income in 1964 was $536,566 (about $4,046,801 in today's dollars) and financial contributions were $875,220 (about $6.6 million in today's dollars).

(5) Perhaps more importantly, as was the case with the Communist Party --- the JBS had about 10 times as many state-of-mind members/supporters as actual dues-paying members.

so, aside from its 'segue' into the Tax Day Tea Party (?), what in fact DID happen to the JBS? i've never heard anything of substance about it except as it relates to JFK...

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In further reply to Jim's comment that the JBS was a "small scale grass roots movement" -- I copy below something I wrote several years ago in reply to somebody who made a similar comment:

Here is a VERY brief list of individuals who have been either JBS members or JBS endorsers.
Nelson Bunker Hunt (TX billionaire, who served on JBS National Council)
Charles Koch (KS billionaire -- Koch Oil companies)
Harry Bradley (WI billionaire, Allen Bradley Co.)
Fred Koch (KS billionaire, Koch Oil companies)
Roger Milliken (SC billionaire, textile companies)
Author, Taylor Caldwell
Philip Chandler, Publisher, Los Angeles Times
James C. Quayle, father of former Vice President Dan Quayle
U.S. Congressmen: Cong. Edgar Hiestand (CA) , Cong. Howard Buffett (NE) – Warren Buffet’s father!, Cong. James B. Utt (CA), Cong. James Simpson (IL), Cong. John G. Schmitz (CA), Cong. John Rousselot (CA), Cong. Kit Clardy (MI) , Cong. Lawrence P. McDonald (GA), Cong. Ron Paul (TX), Cong. Thomas H. Werdel (CA), Cong. Wint Smith (KS)
U.S Governors: J. Bracken Lee (UT), Meldrim Thompson (NH), Lester Maddox (GA), Even Mecham (AZ), Gov. Charles Edison (NJ),
Senior retired military officers (Generals and Admirals) from US Army, US Navy, US Air Force such as: Brig. Gen. Bonner Fellers, Brig. Gen. Richard B. Moran; Lt. Gen. Edward M. Almond, Brig. Gen. William L. Lee, Lt. Gen. George E. Stratemeyer, Maj. Gen. Robert Blake, Lt. Gen. Sumter L. Lowry, Maj. Gen. Charles A. Willoughby, and Lt. Gen. Charles B. Stone; Col Laurence E. Bunker; Vice Admiral C.S. Freeman, Rear Admiral Paulus P. Powell, and Vice Admiral T.G.W. Settle.
Phyllis Schlafly and her husband Fred
Ezra Taft Benson (former US Secretary of Agriculture, and later head of the Mormon Church)
Actors: Walter Brennan, Zasu Pitts; Adolphe Menjou, Ward Bond; Hollywood gossip columnist, Hedda Hopper
Multi-millionaire businessmen who have run their own companies (such as A.G. Heinsohn Jr., John T. Beatty, William Grede, Floyd Paxton, Robert Stoddard, S.J. Conner, Ralph E. Davis)
Miscellaneous personalities:
T. Coleman Andrews Former IRS Commissioner and 1956 Presidential candidate, States Rights Party
Former Chief Justice, Arizona Supreme Court, M.T. Phelps
Former Dean, Notre Dame Law School, Clarence Manion
Farm and Ranch publisher (Tom Anderson) -- whose various farm publications had a total circulation of over 2 million
Spruille Braden, former US Ambassador to several south American countries
Bryton Barron, former historian for the US State Department
Col. Laurence E. Bunker -- former senior aide to Gen Douglas MacArthur
Father Richard Ginder, Editor of Catholic publication, The Priest and Associate Editor, Our Sunday Visitor
Father Francis E. Fenton, Catholic priest
Cola G. Parker, former President Kimberly-Clark Co, and President, National Association of Manufacturers
Gen. Charles B. Stone (successor to Gen. Claire Chennault as Commander, 14th Air Force in China)
Archibald B. Roosevelt (Teddy Roosevelt's grandson)
Sports figures such as: Mark Thurmond (San Diego Padres pitcher), Dave Dravecky (San Diego Padres pitcher), Eric Snow (San Diego Padres pitcher)
Newspaper columnists: Westbrook Pegler, George S. Schuyler
Former FBI Special Agents, FBI informants, or major city police department informants: Dan Smoot, W. Cleon Skousen, Matt Cvetic, Julia Brown, Lola Belle Holmes, Leonard Patterson, Manning Johnson, Gerald Kirk , David Gumaer,
Other Birchers of note:
Jack Seale, Mayor of Amarillo TX
D.B. Lewis, President, Dr. Ross Pet Foods
Ezola Foster, Former VP candidate for Reform Party (Pat Buchanan's running mate)
James J. Allman, Director Community Relations for St. Louis Police Dept – resigned to become JBS Coordinator for Missouri
Les Andrew, JBS member, was vice-chairman of United Republicans of California
H.L. Richardson, JBS member, won seat in 1966 in California State Senate
George Klicka, JBS member, elected to Wisconsin State Assembly
Kenneth J. Merkel, JBS member, elected and re-elected to Wisconsin State Assembly
J. Reese Hunter, Utah JBS member, elected to Utah Assembly
C.R. Lewis, JBS member and National Council, elected to Alaska State Senate
Dr. Bruce L. Odou, JBS member and Section Leader, elected 1963 to Montebello CA City Council and then Mayor
Leo F. Kahian, JBS member, elected town selectman in Middleboro MA
Charles Edison, JBS member and National Council, former Secretary of Navy and Governor of NJ
The JBS had all of the following avenues to disseminate its views:
* Three slick magazines, distributed nationally (American Opinion, Review of the News, The New American) whose circulation has been as high as 75,000 paid subscribers
* thousands of individual chapters in every state of our country and in some foreign countries, and tens of thousands of dues-paying members
* a Speakers Bureau which featured many of the most prominent conservatives in our nation
* American Opinion Bookstores (at one time, the largest bookstore chain in the United States)
* numerous radio programs, broadcast daily around the country
* a book publishing division which has published or reprinted HUNDREDS of books and thousands of articles
* numerous front-groups organized across the United States (at least 15 by my count)
* filmstrips, videotapes, audio cassettes (at one time, the JBS was responsible for many hundreds of showings around the U.S. of filmstrips such as "Operation Abolition" and "Communism on the Map"
* a very professional website which produces hundreds of thousands of unique "hits" per month
* Robert Welch University (which included an online accredited degree program)
Doesn't seem "small scale" to me.
Edited by Ernie Lazar

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The notion that radical right-wing groups, anti-Castro Cubans, or "rogue" CIA elements were behind the JFK assassination is contradicted by everything that followed it.

We live in a politically correct society now; the msm and our pathetic politicians would love to be able to pin JFK's assassination on out of touch, racist elements. I don't think the ghost of Edwin Walker inspired Peter Jennings and ABC, for instance, to produce that monstrosity of disinformation 40 years after the event. I don't think the extreme right-wing is influencing typical liberal celebrities like Tom Hanks and James Franco to publicly proclaim their faith in the long discredited Warren Report.

We can't look at the JFK assassination in a vacuum. A crime of that magnitude required a slew of other crimes (MLK and RFK assassinations, deaths of witnesses, etc.) in order to perpetuate the cover up. If the far Right killed JFK, they didn't accomplish anything, as the Civil Rights Act and other liberal pieces of legislation were passed. If getting rid of Castro was the motive, that didn't work, either, as Cuba effectively disappeared as an American political issue after the death of JFK.

As I wrote in an article for Penn Jones' The Continuing Inquiry over thirty years ago, the John Birch Society and similar right- wing groups have long been marginalized in this country. They didn't have the power in 1963 to get virtually the entire liberal establishment behind the bogus official story, and they certainly don't have the power now to get every television network behind their impossible fairy tale.

Oddly enough, while "liberals" from Stephen King to George Clooney continue to perpetuate the ridiculous myth about what happened in Dallas, the John Birch Society and other far-right groups believed there was a conspiracy from the get-go. Of course, they thought the commies were behind it, but few of them bought the official narrative. Looking at the phony Left-Right paradigm, in my view, sends us scurrying down paths that lead nowhere.

At this point, it should be obvious that the forces who killed the Kennedys are still in power, even if the names are different. This is demonstrated by the manner in which the subject is presented by every organ of the mainstream media, approached by lauded historians, and how all politicians of both parties toe the official line.

Don Jeffries, you're my new hero.

gotta run rebuild my altar - talk to ya'll later.

(j.k.)

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GN: I'm trying very hard to respect your contributions to this subject as objective and responsible and effortful. your continuing leftist agenda is making it difficult.

before you rebut: doesn't matter whether what you're saying is accurate or not. the way you're putting it reeks of agenda, which is not necessary and in fact, not constructive in seeking an otherwise common goal.

I cannot think that the Tea Party today can have a remote connection to the assassination of JFK, even IF JBS did it. which they didn't.

i know for a fact that my passionate conservative world-views have NOTHING to do with my desire to find and punish someone who may still be held culpable in this thing. I'd like to think political opinions can be left out of this, just because there's a chance to take a shot at some Republicans.

do not for a second think that there are not plenty more opportunities to take some shots at some Democrats. I just let em go.

if i misunderstood that last comment, then i apologize. but i don't think i misunderstood the spirit with which it was made.

I don' know what this means at all. What on earth could the Tea Party have to do with the JFK case? And BTW I don't think the JBS had anything to do with it either.

All I was doing was comparing the relative power and potency of the two movements, and also their origins.

And I do not consider myself a leftist. I consider myself a Kennedy Democrat-- a species that is just about extinct today.

And BTW, bringing in perceived political biases is always a dangerous thing to do, since it can easily be turned around on you e.g. How could a conservative Republican give anything about JFK?

Edited by James DiEugenio

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In further reply to Jim's comment that the JBS was a "small scale grass roots movement" -- I copy below something I wrote several years ago in reply to somebody who made a similar comment:

Here is a VERY brief list of individuals who have been either JBS members or JBS endorsers.
Nelson Bunker Hunt (TX billionaire, who served on JBS National Council)
Charles Koch (KS billionaire -- Koch Oil companies)
Harry Bradley (WI billionaire, Allen Bradley Co.)
Fred Koch (KS billionaire, Koch Oil companies)
Roger Milliken (SC billionaire, textile companies)
Author, Taylor Caldwell
Philip Chandler, Publisher, Los Angeles Times
James C. Quayle, father of former Vice President Dan Quayle
U.S. Congressmen: Cong. Edgar Hiestand (CA) , Cong. Howard Buffett (NE) – Warren Buffet’s father!, Cong. James B. Utt (CA), Cong. James Simpson (IL), Cong. John G. Schmitz (CA), Cong. John Rousselot (CA), Cong. Kit Clardy (MI) , Cong. Lawrence P. McDonald (GA), Cong. Ron Paul (TX), Cong. Thomas H. Werdel (CA), Cong. Wint Smith (KS)
U.S Governors: J. Bracken Lee (UT), Meldrim Thompson (NH), Lester Maddox (GA), Even Mecham (AZ), Gov. Charles Edison (NJ),
Senior retired military officers (Generals and Admirals) from US Army, US Navy, US Air Force such as: Brig. Gen. Bonner Fellers, Brig. Gen. Richard B. Moran; Lt. Gen. Edward M. Almond, Brig. Gen. William L. Lee, Lt. Gen. George E. Stratemeyer, Maj. Gen. Robert Blake, Lt. Gen. Sumter L. Lowry, Maj. Gen. Charles A. Willoughby, and Lt. Gen. Charles B. Stone; Col Laurence E. Bunker; Vice Admiral C.S. Freeman, Rear Admiral Paulus P. Powell, and Vice Admiral T.G.W. Settle.
Phyllis Schlafly and her husband Fred
Ezra Taft Benson (former US Secretary of Agriculture, and later head of the Mormon Church)
Actors: Walter Brennan, Zasu Pitts; Adolphe Menjou, Ward Bond; Hollywood gossip columnist, Hedda Hopper
Multi-millionaire businessmen who have run their own companies (such as A.G. Heinsohn Jr., John T. Beatty, William Grede, Floyd Paxton, Robert Stoddard, S.J. Conner, Ralph E. Davis)
Miscellaneous personalities:
T. Coleman Andrews Former IRS Commissioner and 1956 Presidential candidate, States Rights Party
Former Chief Justice, Arizona Supreme Court, M.T. Phelps
Former Dean, Notre Dame Law School, Clarence Manion
Farm and Ranch publisher (Tom Anderson) -- whose various farm publications had a total circulation of over 2 million
Spruille Braden, former US Ambassador to several south American countries
Bryton Barron, former historian for the US State Department
Col. Laurence E. Bunker -- former senior aide to Gen Douglas MacArthur
Father Richard Ginder, Editor of Catholic publication, The Priest and Associate Editor, Our Sunday Visitor
Father Francis E. Fenton, Catholic priest
Cola G. Parker, former President Kimberly-Clark Co, and President, National Association of Manufacturers
Gen. Charles B. Stone (successor to Gen. Claire Chennault as Commander, 14th Air Force in China)
Archibald B. Roosevelt (Teddy Roosevelt's grandson)
Sports figures such as: Mark Thurmond (San Diego Padres pitcher), Dave Dravecky (San Diego Padres pitcher), Eric Snow (San Diego Padres pitcher)
Newspaper columnists: Westbrook Pegler, George S. Schuyler
Former FBI Special Agents, FBI informants, or major city police department informants: Dan Smoot, W. Cleon Skousen, Matt Cvetic, Julia Brown, Lola Belle Holmes, Leonard Patterson, Manning Johnson, Gerald Kirk , David Gumaer,
Other Birchers of note:
Jack Seale, Mayor of Amarillo TX
D.B. Lewis, President, Dr. Ross Pet Foods
Ezola Foster, Former VP candidate for Reform Party (Pat Buchanan's running mate)
James J. Allman, Director Community Relations for St. Louis Police Dept – resigned to become JBS Coordinator for Missouri
Les Andrew, JBS member, was vice-chairman of United Republicans of California
H.L. Richardson, JBS member, won seat in 1966 in California State Senate
George Klicka, JBS member, elected to Wisconsin State Assembly
Kenneth J. Merkel, JBS member, elected and re-elected to Wisconsin State Assembly
J. Reese Hunter, Utah JBS member, elected to Utah Assembly
C.R. Lewis, JBS member and National Council, elected to Alaska State Senate
Dr. Bruce L. Odou, JBS member and Section Leader, elected 1963 to Montebello CA City Council and then Mayor
Leo F. Kahian, JBS member, elected town selectman in Middleboro MA
Charles Edison, JBS member and National Council, former Secretary of Navy and Governor of NJ
The JBS had all of the following avenues to disseminate its views:
* Three slick magazines, distributed nationally (American Opinion, Review of the News, The New American) whose circulation has been as high as 75,000 paid subscribers
* thousands of individual chapters in every state of our country and in some foreign countries, and tens of thousands of dues-paying members
* a Speakers Bureau which featured many of the most prominent conservatives in our nation
* American Opinion Bookstores (at one time, the largest bookstore chain in the United States)
* numerous radio programs, broadcast daily around the country
* a book publishing division which has published or reprinted HUNDREDS of books and thousands of articles
* numerous front-groups organized across the United States (at least 15 by my count)
* filmstrips, videotapes, audio cassettes (at one time, the JBS was responsible for many hundreds of showings around the U.S. of filmstrips such as "Operation Abolition" and "Communism on the Map"
* a very professional website which produces hundreds of thousands of unique "hits" per month
* Robert Welch University (which included an online accredited degree program)
Doesn't seem "small scale" to me.

that's all you could come up with?

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...After the HSCA, there was a wave of Mob did it books: Blakey, Scheim, and then Davis.

Starting with Barr McClellan and his "I know Lyndon Johnson Killed John Kennedy" spiel on TV, there was a wave of LBJ did it books, including his own, Nelson's and Stone's.

Now, the title of this book is General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: The Extensive new evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy.

Which recalls the title of a book by Livingstone. Now, with that title I don't know how else you can classify this book except by saying that Walker and the rightwing nuts in Texas and their associated groups killed Kennedy. If that is not the case then the title is a misnomer.

It is always off-putting when it takes a Waldronesque 900 pages to describe a plot to kill Kennedy.

First, I'd like to extend a warm welcome to you, James DiEugenio, in your return to the FORUM in general, and especially to this interesting thread.

Having spoken with Dr. Caufield occasionally during the past two years or so, I can agree fully with your assessment -- with a title like that, one must surely shine a floodlight on the Radical Right in Dallas with regard to the JFK murder, with a special spotlight on resigned Major General Edwin Walker.

I'm unaware of any other major publication along these lines, and yet, Jim, you mentioned Livingstone -- most likely meaning Harrison Edward Livingstone who recently died in February of this year. Also, you probably meant this book:

THE RADICAL RIGHT AND THE MURDER OF JOHN F. KENNEDY (2006)

Is that correct? I'm unfamiliar with this book, but I'd rush out to buy a copy today. Does Livingstone mention Edwin Walker other than in passing (as most JFK literature does)?

As for the 900 page barrier -- I think that if one hopes to correct the errors of 50 years of misguided JFK research, that one would need at least that volume.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul -- here are the references to Walker in Livingstones' book:

https://books.google.com/books?id=LD8TUAGSuMoC&printsec=frontcover&dq=radical+right+and+murder&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAGoVChMI3Z3owY-axwIV0EqICh0M7A9d#v=onepage&q=walker&f=false

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Nelson Bunker Hunt, Charles Koch, Fred Koch -


it was one of these guys who i mentioned earlier as having seen in episode 9 of The Guilty Men - Hunt, i think. Does anyone remember him being in that part of the series?


he was mentioned as very very powerful, and of the same mindset as HL HUNT and Murchison, et al. but with more power. any reason his name doesn't come up more in this thing? Big Oil does seem to have had more than a passing interest in seeing Jack dead...

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Ernie:

First of all, I don' know what you use as an inflator index, but the one I used came out with a figure of about 15,000, 000 today.

Which, when you compare to what the parties spend in a presidential year, is not really a lot of money. I mean today, that would be barely enough to run a contested senatorial campaign in a big state.

As far as the luminaries you have listed there who liked or contributed to the JBS, then the obvious question is why did they not have further reach or more power or last longer?

I mean after Fred Koch pulled out and after Otis Chandler launched that three day expose of them in the LA Times, they were more or less gone. People like the Hunts organized their own groups, and radio networks.

The JBS made a big mistake in staying with the Vietnam War as long as they did. It really spelled their doom.

Edited by James DiEugenio

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GN: I'm trying very hard to respect your contributions to this subject as objective and responsible and effortful. your continuing leftist agenda is making it difficult.

before you rebut: doesn't matter whether what you're saying is accurate or not. the way you're putting it reeks of agenda, which is not necessary and in fact, not constructive in seeking an otherwise common goal.

I cannot think that the Tea Party today can have a remote connection to the assassination of JFK, even IF JBS did it. which they didn't.

i know for a fact that my passionate conservative world-views have NOTHING to do with my desire to find and punish someone who may still be held culpable in this thing. I'd like to think political opinions can be left out of this, just because there's a chance to take a shot at some Republicans.

do not for a second think that there are not plenty more opportunities to take some shots at some Democrats. I just let em go.

if i misunderstood that last comment, then i apologize. but i don't think i misunderstood the spirit with which it was made.

I don' know what this means at all. What on earth could the Tea Party have to do with the JFK case? And BTW I don't think the JBS had anything to do with it either.

All I was doing was comparing the relative power and potency of the two movements, and also their origins.

And I do not consider myself a leftist. I consider myself a Kennedy Democrat-- a species that is just about extinct today.

And BTW, bringing in perceived political biases is always a dangerous thing to do, since it can easily be turned around on you e.g. How could a conservative Republican give anything about JFK?

1 - i never called myself a Republican. I'm sure of it. a Patriot will care about any murder of a great man and a great President. partisanship aside.

2 - "The Tea Party was founded with big money from above. With allies in the media at Fox. The modern GOP knows how to create astroturf movements, that is fake grass roots."

my statement was simply that this statement of yours sounds filled with inuendo. "With allies in the media at Fox. the GOP knows how to create astroturf..."

there's nothing informative or educational in that statement, as you claim. so i think i rightly perceived inuendo. and spoke my mind. that's all.

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THere's nothing informative or educational in that statement?

Evidently, you have never read William Greider's wonderful expose of how political parties work today.

Its called Who Will Tell the People.

That book is a real education in and of itself. In that book he interviewed the big polling and lobbying companies. And they told him what they did and how much they charge. That is where the word "astroturf "comes from in political terms.

In other words, those guys use it when talking about their name lists and phone efforts.

And there are all kinds of sources on how the Tea Party movement began. If you want to read them, fine. If not, then that is cool also. But DIck Armey was a key figure, the following is from Wikipedia:

In 2003, Dick Armey became the chairman of CSE after retiring from Congress.[77] In 2004, Citizens for a Sound Economy split into FreedomWorks, for 501c4 advocacy activity, and the Americans for Prosperity Foundation. Dick Armey stayed as chairman of FreedomWorks, while David Koch stayed as Chairman of the Americans for Prosperity Foundation. The two organizations would become key players in the Tea Party movement from 2009 onward.[78][79] Americans for Prosperity and FreedomWorks were "probably the leading partners" in the September, 2009 Taxpayer March on Washington, also known as the "9/12 Tea Party," according to The Guardian.[80]

As per being a Patriot, take a look at Glenn Greenwald's How Would a Patriot Act?

Edited by James DiEugenio

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