New Book!

[William O'Neil]

Paul, Marina was up against a wall when 'EverReady Ruth' Paine delivered the book containing the so- called "note" regarding instructions if captured etc.. As you know this note has many evidential problems regarding context, date and source, of said letter. Once the authorities found it, she was up a creek as to how to explain it. I think she finally caved to pressure....the nature of which we do not know. The FBI and SS ran with this (so called) connection and duly made much to do about it. The WC also ran with these reports, as they had no separate investigative agents of their own. I don't think they had a unilateral agenda to make the connection, as in so many other instances, it had been made for them.

We don't know what pressures really were presented, perhaps Marina said what she thought she knew, or perhaps she was trying to please her interrogators to ease the tremendous load on her back. This is one of many puzzles. As far as a valid motive for the shooting attempt by LHO, the WC still hasn't come up with one...have they?

Bill

Edited August 11, 2015 by William O'Neil

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, Marina was up against a wall when 'EverReady Ruth' Paine delivered the book containing the so- called "note" regarding instructions if captured etc.. As you know this note has many evidential problems regarding context, date and source, of said letter. Once the authorities found it, she was up a creek as to how to explain it. I think she finally caved to pressure....the nature of which we do not know. The FBI and SS ran with this (so called) connection and duly made much to do about it. The WC also ran with these reports, as they had no separate investigative agents of their own. I don't think they had a unilateral agenda to make the connection, as in so many other instances, it had been made for them.

We don't know what pressures really were presented, perhaps Marina said what she thought she knew, or perhaps she was trying to please her interrogators to ease the tremendous load on her back. This is one of many puzzles. As far as a valid motive for the shooting attempt by LHO, the WC still hasn't come up with one...have they?

Bill

Well, Bill, the WC bluntly admitted that they could not reveal the full truth about the JFK assassination because of "National Security." So, I don't expect to find Truth there. Still, as Allen Dulles told his clerk, Jacques Zwart, "the full answer to the JFK assassination is right there in the Warren Commission (WC) volumes -- but the reader must become an expert at hairsplitting." So, Zwart wrote his book, Invitation to Hairsplitting (1970).

What I gather is that the testimony and evidence in the WC volumes are all real -- except that they had to be twisted to fit into the Lone Shooter narrative. That is, when any other topic besides a "Lone Shooter" is being discussed, that testimony is probably valid. That's my take on it.

LBJ himself said that the version of the Warren Report delivered to him per EO #11130 was "four inches thick." But the public received a WC Summary volume that is only 2" thick, which never references EO #11130, and so was not bound by that order. For Zwart, the public version of the Warren Report was written to serve the interests of National Security -- not to tell the truth. Given this start -- Zwart believed that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK, and that the conspirators were fully known (after the fact) by the US government -- but the public must wait 75 years for the Truth.

My point is this -- unless I find a blatant reason to discount Ruth Paine's testimony, I will continue to accept it. It is on this question of the resigned General Walker that her testimony is most sensitive.

Greg Parker's friend, an expert in Russian linguistics, doubts the authenticity of the Walker letter but also demands much more work to be certain. Yet didn't the WC produce linguistics experts to examine the handwriting of the Walker letter? Is this common knowledge to all but me?

You doubt the authenticity of the Walker letter, Bill. Yet so much depends on this letter -- how can we be finally certain about it?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited August 11, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

William:

Without giving away the book, is Jeff going to say Oswald shot at Walker?

James, as William explained, Jeff Caufield is going to say that Oswald's shot at Walker was a publicity stunt.

Will Jeff Caufield also say (along with Will Fritz, Jr., 2002) that Oswald actually joined the "Friends of Walker"? I have no idea.

Yet the question is profoundly important, IMHO. Do you think that Marina Oswald lied about the Backyard Photographs? Do you think she lied about Lee's photo album of resigned General Walker's home architecture and neighborhood, with maps? Do you think she lied about that handwritten Russian note from Lee himself with his instructions for her in case he was arrested? Do you think she lied about Lee Oswald confessing to her about the Walker shooting, giving his side of the story?

If you think Marina lied, James, do you believe that the WC encouraged her to lie about all these matters?

Yet the WC's stated motive for raising the Walker shooting was that Marina herself volunteered these accusations in early December 1963. So the WC questioned perhaps a dozen witnesses about the shots at General Walker back in April 1963.

If Marina was only saying what the WC told her to say -- then why, James, do you think that the WC invented that particular story about the resigned General Walker? Please consider the same three questions I asked William:

(i) Why would the WC strain to link the April shooting at General Walker with the November JFK assassination, if it wasn't true?

(ii) Why would somebody in Marina's position agree to link Lee Harvey Oswald with the shots at General Walker, if she knew it wasn't true?

(iii) Why would several WC witnesses agree to link Lee Harvey Oswald with the shots at General Walker, if they knew it wasn't true (especially if they opposed Edwin Walker)?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited August 14, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[David G. Healy]

...

Yet the WC stated motive for raising the Walker shooting was that Marina herself volunteered these accusations in early December 1963. So the WC questioned perhaps a dozen witnesses about the shots at General Walker back in April 1963.

If Marina was only saying what the WC told her to say -- then why, James, do you think that the WC invented that particular story about the resigned General Walker? Please consider the same three questions I asked William:

(i) Why would the WC strain to link the April shooting at General Walker with the November JFK assassination, if it wasn't true?

(ii) Why would somebody in Marina's position agree to link Lee Harvey Oswald with the shots at General Walker, if she knew it wasn't true?

(iii) Why would several WC witnesses agree to link Lee Harvey Oswald with the shots at General Walker, if they knew it wasn't true (especially if they opposed Edwin Walker)?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

to prove a conspiracy was afoot?:

(i) what difference does it make whether it was true or not, the accusation was enough...

(ii) because of that very position she found herself in. America with kids or, Russia with NO kids...

(iii) intimidation... pure and simple

[William O'Neil]

Paul I agree. The "letter" isn't dated so that is a problem as far as when and what it was written for, or why. It was only discovered when Marina was snooping about in Lee's stuff which he wanted kept private. If your going to leave instructions (of this magnitude) for your wife, would you not put it out in the open? I would. The provenance of the letter is in question, not to mention the timeliness of it's arrival on the scene, just when Walker's buddy Gerhardt Frey is about to pull a rabbit out of his hat, by publishing an article in his paper The Deutsche National Zeitung revealing that Oswald was Walker's attacker. Which is a whole other can of worms.

Bill

[Paul Trejo]

...

Yet the WC stated motive for raising the Walker shooting was that Marina herself volunteered these accusations in early December 1963. So the WC questioned perhaps a dozen witnesses about the shots at General Walker back in April 1963.

If Marina was only saying what the WC told her to say -- then why, James, do you think that the WC invented that particular story about the resigned General Walker? Please consider the same three questions I asked William:

(i) Why would the WC strain to link the April shooting at General Walker with the November JFK assassination, if it wasn't true?

(ii) Why would somebody in Marina's position agree to link Lee Harvey Oswald with the shots at General Walker, if she knew it wasn't true?

(iii) Why would several WC witnesses agree to link Lee Harvey Oswald with the shots at General Walker, if they knew it wasn't true (especially if they opposed Edwin Walker)?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

to prove a conspiracy was afoot?:

(i) what difference does it make whether it was true or not, the accusation was enough...

(ii) because of that very position she found herself in. America with kids or, Russia with NO kids...

(iii) intimidation... pure and simple

David, IMHO this explanation is too skinny, and still begs the question.

Here again is my question: assuming that Oswald never shot at General Walker -- then what was the WC motivation for inventing the story, and calling a dozen witnesses, including Marina Oswald -- to help them sell this story? Why THIS story in particular?

Because, for one thing, the WC did NOT want to prove that a conspiracy was afoot! On the contrary! A Lone Nut is the very OPPOSITE of a conspiracy afoot!

So -- I want to know why you believe the WC invented THIS story in particular (assuming that they really invented it).

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited August 11, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, one consideration might be that the WC totally failed on establishing a motive for Oswald shooting JFK, in fact they had to deal with sources repeating his positive comments about

the President. Beyond that they had a difficult time setting him up as socially maladjusted or pathological - lone nut profile - and they were desperate for

anything that would make him appear to be mentally out of control and dangerous. Supporting a Walker shooting attempt was one of the few things they could weave into the pot that at least

helped sell Oswald as dangerous, the other was Marina's story about him wanting to shoot Nixon.

[Paul Trejo]



Paul I agree. The "letter" isn't dated so that is a problem as far as when and what it was written for, or why. It was only discovered when Marina was snooping about in Lee's stuff which he wanted kept private. If your going to leave instructions (of this magnitude) for your wife, would you not put it out in the open? I would. The provenance of the letter is in question, not to mention the timeliness of it's arrival on the scene, just when Walker's buddy Gerhardt Frey is about to pull a rabbit out of his hat, by publishing an article in his paper The Deutsche National Zeitung revealing that Oswald was Walker's attacker. Which is a whole other can of worms.

Bill

Is it so important that the letter isn't dated? If somebody was very nervous, about to commit a crime, would they still be calm enough to ensure that their letter was properly dated?

As for leaving the note in the open -- knowing that Marina would always snoop anyway (especially if he didn't return that night), why not leave it in his personal space? I see no problem that Oswald left his note on his personal bureau.

I do, however, agree that the timing of Marina's revelation to the FBI (early December) seems to harmonize with the fact that the Deutsche Nationalzeitung had already published Walker's claim that Oswald was his shooter on 10 April 1963. This made Wesley Liebeler pump Walker with questions about why that German newspaper would print that article on 11/29/1963, and its circumstances. Walker deftly said, "they guessed it." Liebeler accepted that absurdity. Most unsatisfying.

So, Bill -- this seems to be the result -- a plot carried out by Edwin Walker with a German newspaper naming Lee Harvey Oswald as his April shooter, and then the Warren Commission instructing Marina Oswald, George and Jeanne De Mohrenschildt along with Ruth and Michael Paine -- to cooperate with this story.

It's an irrational result.

Again I must ask WHY? That result simply makes no sense at all, IMHO, in any conspiracy scenario. And why are these questions still open after fifty years?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited August 14, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, one consideration might be that the WC totally failed on establishing a motive for Oswald shooting JFK, in fact they had to deal with sources repeating his positive comments about the President. Beyond that they had a difficult time setting him up as socially maladjusted or pathological - lone nut profile - and they were desperate for anything that would make him appear to be mentally out of control and dangerous. Supporting a Walker shooting attempt was one of the few things they could weave into the pot that at least helped sell Oswald as dangerous, the other was Marina's story about him wanting to shoot Nixon.

Thanks, Larry, for offering this. Let's see if I grasp your point. The WC, which was trying hard to establish a "Lone Nut" scenario, decided to INVENT this fiction that Lee Harvey Oswald shot at Edwin Walker on 10 April 1963 -- and then "intimidated" Marina Oswald, George De Mohrenschildt, Jeanne De Morhenshildt, Ruth Paine and Michael Paine to go along with this fiction?

Is that what JFK Research has proposed after fifty years? JFK Research must be in a hurry to get away from this question, because this explanation falls apart very quickly upon ordinary scrutiny.

After perusing the personalities of Ruth, Michael, George, Jeanne and Marina -- does anybody truly believe that the WC could convince them to deliberately push a lie like this -- if it really was a lie?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited August 11, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Not exactly what I said Paul, what I said was that the WC was receptive to the story of Oswald shooting at Walker shooting, as it was of the story about Oswald wanting to shoot Nixon. That does not mean they invented either; by supportive I mean that they did not investigate either story intensely or raise the issues with both that you have seen mentioned here or which have been noted by research over the years. They simply took both stories into the record, finding them complementary to the portrayal of Oswald which they were presenting. I don't think JFK research has been eager to get away from either story as they have both been researched on commented on for decades.

[William O'Neil]

"

"So, Bill -- this seems to be the result -- a plot carried out by Edwin Walker with a German newspaper naming Lee Harvey Oswald as his April shooter, and then the Warren Commission instructing Marina Oswald, George and Jeanne De Mohrenschildt along with Ruth and Michael Paine -- to cooperate with this story."

I don't think the WC instructed them on this, the commission had the information and ran with it. I believe the folks you mentioned had their own (perhaps individual) motivations for cooperation with authorities. Some motivations may have predated the assassination in the form of pre-knowledge, and their desire to mitigate or hide that fact. Lottsa CYA going on during this period.

Incidentally, I don't believe it was Walker that spilled the beans to Thorsten, reporter from DNZ.... but, it's only a theory at this point. Ever ask yourself how the reporter found Walker in Shreveport and knew what room he was in ? It was not common knowledge (esp in Germany) just where Ted was at that time. That's for another day.....

Bill

[Paul Trejo]

Not exactly what I said Paul, what I said was that the WC was receptive to the story of Oswald shooting at Walker shooting, as it was of the story about Oswald wanting to shoot Nixon. That does not mean they invented either; by supportive I mean that they did not investigate either story intensely or raise the issues with both that you have seen mentioned here or which have been noted by research over the years. They simply took both stories into the record, finding them complementary to the portrayal of Oswald which they were presenting. I don't think JFK research has been eager to get away from either story as they have both been researched on commented on for decades.

OK, Larry, then if the story didn't originate with the WC -- but was only encouraged by the WC -- then the story originated with Marina Oswald -- and not by her taking instructions from the WC.

Then we must ask this question -- why in the world would Marina Oswald invent the story of Lee's shooting at Walker -- unless the story was true?

Again -- did she, out of her own imagination, make up the Backyard Photographs, plus the photograph album of Walker's home, plus the Russian letter, plus Lee's confession to her? Upon what motivation?

Thanks for pursuing this question, Larry -- I really don't get how it could be invented out of whole cloth, or who the inventor might be.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited August 11, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

"

"So, Bill -- this seems to be the result -- a plot carried out by Edwin Walker with a German newspaper naming Lee Harvey Oswald as his April shooter, and then the Warren Commission instructing Marina Oswald, George and Jeanne De Mohrenschildt along with Ruth and Michael Paine -- to cooperate with this story."

I don't think the WC instructed them on this, the commission had the information and ran with it. I believe the folks you mentioned had their own (perhaps individual) motivations for cooperation with authorities. Some motivations may have predated the assassination in the form of pre-knowledge, and their desire to mitigate or hide that fact. Lottsa CYA going on during this period.

Incidentally, I don't believe it was Walker that spilled the beans to Thorsten, reporter from DNZ.... but, it's only a theory at this point. Ever ask yourself how the reporter found Walker in Shreveport and knew what room he was in ? It was not common knowledge (esp in Germany) just where Ted was at that time. That's for another day.....

Bill

Thanks for pursuing this Bill, because I don't get the CT story on this, and I don't see the motivation for lying about it.

You are not saying that the WC put Marina (or the others) up to this -- but you are saying it was a lie, and that Marina, George, Jeanne, Ruth and Michael all had separate motives to push this lie upon the WC. Is that what I'm hearing now?

And the WC merely accepted it gladly, as it supported their case for a "Lone Nut" who was simply a Total Nut. Yes?

I still don't get it. Who would coordinate all their stories if not the WC?

Could it have been General Walker? Yet all five witnesses said they hated and despised General Walker!

BTW, William J. Fritz, Jr., who wrote The Kennedy Mutiny (2002) solved this problem by making Volkmar Schmidt and Everett Glover as well as Lee Harvey Oswald into members of the "Friends of Walker" group in Dallas. Although Volkmar Schmidt told PBS Frontline News that he hated and despised General Walker and tried to convince Lee Harvey Oswald that General Walker was comparable to Adolf Hitler -- Will Fritz had to accuse Volkmar of lying through his teeth, claiming Volkmar was really trying to SELL Oswald on General Walker.

In other words -- to make that fiction work, CTers must also make George, Jeanne, Marina, Ruth and Michael into something on the order of "Friends of Walker". But that's nothing short of absurd.

I still don't see the motivation for Marina or anybody else lying to make LHO into General Walker's shooter on 10 April 1963.

Finally, Bill, as for the backstory behind the Deutsche Nationalzeitung article taken on 11/23/1963 and published on 11/29/1963, the German FBI (called BND) interviewed "Hasso Thorsten" whose real name was Helmut Muench, and shook his tree. Muench sang like a bird. As I recall, Muench said that General Walker and Gerhard Frey had pre-arranged him to call Walker early in the morning, at such and such a number. So, Walker and Frey set it up.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited August 14, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[William O'Neil]

Paul, Are you lying if you 'go along to get along'?? I don't know if Marina lied or not. Like I say she may have told what she really experienced, not understanding what else was going on with others around her. The rest of them I think, had a lot of things to hide( IMO) and didn't want to rock the boat regarding the "Official version"

That's a guess on my part, since everyone pretty much clammed up and towed the line.

That's very interesting about Muench, would love to see that stuff with the BND. My suspect for the original impetus is Robert Morris, who contacted Frey, who assigned Muench to interview Walker. Walker seemed very familiar and friendly toward Muench in that call, almost suspiciously so, like it was per-arranged. Walker says he never admitted he said Oswald was the suspect. Yet the article says he did.Muench later says Frey put that in afterwards.

It's been along while since I've explored this, I'm going on memory (which ain't too great these days) I'll look into it again soon.

Bill

[William O'Neil]

Walker was known in local circles as a publicity hound, when his ratings started to fall, he would conjure up ways to get his name back on top. This was a typical and in hindsight, familiar MO. During the research for this book, Dr. Caufield decided to call Minuteman head honcho Robert DePugh for his take on Walker. He came out with a bombshell that he says he’d never revealed before. From a passage in the book;

“Walker ran in the Democratic primary for Governor of Texas in 1962. On March 4, 1962, General Walker said in a campaign speech in Kerrville, Texas, that his campaign couldn’t be conventional because he was a target of the Communist conspiracy.1709 (Although it did not impact his campaign, his prophecy became realized when the self-professed Marxist, Lee Harvey Oswald tried to kill Walker in April 1963—or so the Warren Commission claimed.)

Around the same time, Minutemen leader Robert DePugh visited Walker at his home.

DePugh told the author that Walker asked him to take him for a ride in his car. After driving around for a while with Walker looking over his shoulder to make sure they were not being followed, Walker told him to pull into a parking lot. There Walker told him about his scheme. He told DePugh he wanted his men to kidnap him, with the idea of blaming it on the Communist conspiracy, which would enhance his faltering campaign. DePugh was dumbfounded and flatly refused. Walker finished sixth in a six-candidate field.”

From the soon-to-be released book, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: The Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy, by Dr. Jeffrey H. Caufield.

Bill