New Book!

[Paul Trejo]

Paul B., I agree that it seems very hard to believe that all the events that transpired immediately after the assassination were only done on the spur of the moment to prevent the public thinking it was a Cuban or Soviet plot. That there just happened to be a spare 'gray' coffin on Air Force One. That secondary transportation for that coffin, separate from the bronze coffin seems to have been pre-planned. That plans were in place to insure that Jackie was not in the room with the body while it could be moved to the other coffin.

All this was put together by Hoover within just a couple hours after the shooting? While I'm willing to give Hoover due credit, I hardly see him as a 'Mastermind". How was it already set up to have two autopsy teams at different facilities? I find it difficult to believe that Edwin Walker had that kind of influence.

Good points, Kenneth, but there are alternatives.

All J. Edgar Hoover had to tell his FBI men was that "there can only be one Lone Gunman, and no other scenario is acceptable." At that point, the FBI Agents were obedient, well-trained, and could make things go right.

The same applies to the Military and SS personnel, under orders from the Pentagon and LBJ, who approved of Hoover's "Lone Nut" strategy shortly after 3pm CST. (This is the timestamp on the FBI memo of Hoover's phone call to RFK, telling RFK that Lee Harvey Oswald was certainly not a Communist and certainly not an FPCC leader -- the very opposite of the reports coming out of Dallas.)

The message of Hoover's plan to LBJ was possibly delivered by McGeorge Bundy. In any case, by 4pm CST all senior FBI, SS, CIA, Mil-Intel, Army, Navy and US Government officials, extending all the way to Bethesda Naval Hospital in Washington DC, were already organizing to fulfill these Presidential Orders in the interest of National Security.

J. Edgar Hoover didn't have to be a "mastermind" at the tactical level -- only at the strategic level -- only in establishing the "Lone Nut" cover-up. After that, everybody chipped in with what was at hand -- including extra coffins, body bags -- everything.

Again -- the resigned General Edwin Walker had no clue about Hoover's Cover-up, and actually Walker opposed Hoover's Cover-up all through 1964. Hoover insisted on a "Lone Nut" Oswald. Walker insisted on an "FPCC Communist" Oswald. See the difference?

Walker wanted an immediate war with Cuba, based on his phony cover-story. Hoover wanted to squelch Walker's cover-story, so he created his own.

IMHO, the resigned General Walker had six months to plan the JFK murder, so it went very well. J. Edgar Hoover had only one hour to formulate the "Lone Nut" cover-up, so it was full of holes.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited September 25, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Ernie Lazar]

Paul B., I agree that it seems very hard to believe that all the events that transpired immediately after the assassination were only done on the spur of the moment to prevent the public thinking it was a Cuban or Soviet plot. That there just happened to be a spare 'gray' coffin on Air Force One. That secondary transportation for that coffin, separate from the bronze coffin seems to have been pre-planned. That plans were in place to insure that Jackie was not in the room with the body while it could be moved to the other coffin.

All this was put together by Hoover within just a couple hours after the shooting? While I'm willing to give Hoover due credit, I hardly see him as a 'Mastermind". How was it already set up to have two autopsy teams at different facilities? I find it difficult to believe that Edwin Walker had that kind of influence.

Good points, Kenneth, but there are alternatives.

All J. Edgar Hoover had to tell his FBI men was that "there can only be one Lone Gunman, and no other scenario is acceptable." At that point, the FBI Agents were obedient, well-trained, and could make things go right.

The same applies to the Military and SS personnel, under orders from the Pentagon and LBJ, who approved of Hoover's "Lone Nut" strategy shortly after 3pm CST. (This is the timestamp on the FBI memo of Hoover's phone call to RFK, telling him that Lee Harvey Oswald was certainly not a Communist and certainly not an FPCC leader -- the very opposite of the reports coming out of Dallas.)

The message of Hoover's plan to LBJ was possibly delivered by McGeorge Bundy. In any case, by 4pm CST all senior FBI, SS, CIA, Mil-Intel, Army, Navy and US Government officials, extending all the way to Bethesda Naval Hospital in Washington DC, were already organizing to fulfill these Presidential Orders in the interest of National Security.

J. Edgar Hoover didn't have to be a "mastermind" at the tactical level -- only at the strategic level -- only in establishing the "Lone Nut" cover-up. After that, everybody chipped in with what was at hand -- including special coffins, body bags -- everything.

Again -- the resigned General Edwin Walker had no clue about Hoover's Cover-up, and actually Walker opposed Hoover's Cover-up all through 1964. Hoover insisted on a "Lone Nut." Walker insisted on an "FPCC Communist." See the difference? Walker wanted an immediate war with Cuba, based on his phony cover-story. Hoover wanted to squelch Walker's cover-story, so he created his own.

IMHO, the resigned General Walker had six months to plan the JFK murder, so it went very well. J. Edgar Hoover had only one hour to plan the "Lone Nut" cover-up, so it was full of holes.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Paul wrote:

All J. Edgar Hoover had to tell his FBI men was that "there can only be one Lone Gunman, and no other scenario is acceptable."

Paul, in 1963, the FBI employed 6045 Special Agents. I assume you are not suggesting that Hoover made 6045 phone calls, right?

Therefore, presumably, he used standard FBI methods for communicating with all 56 field offices as well as HQ staff, namely, a SAC Letter or perhaps an Airtel or teletype so that everyone would get "the memo" right away?

So, Paul, have you ever found any FBI Special Agent who kept a copy of his "Lone Nut instructions" from Hoover? OR

Have you ever found any journalist, historian, or anybody else who obtained a copy of Hoover's alleged instructions??

ALSO: I'm sure you have an answer for this?

PREFACE:

Whenever any crime is committed (or suspected) that triggers FBI interest and involvement, AND/OR there is any suspected or actual involvement by subversive elements or radicals or organized crime figures, one or more field offices are normally instructed to pursue certain leads.

For example:

HQ might instruct one or more field offices to immediately conduct interviews with persons whom are thought to know something about the crime OR

A field office might be instructed to interview people who are friends, neighbors, employers, or co-workers of person(s) suspected of involvement in, or have knowledge about, the crime OR

A field office might be instructed to contact various types of their informants (criminal, racial, security) OR

HQ might instruct field office personnel to contact other types of information sources described as "panel sources", "established sources" and other intelligence units (such as military intelligence) OR

Field offices might be instructed to pursue other avenues of information. For example: if persons of interest have traveled outside of our country, the FBI might contact the State Department to get their passport information OR

The IRS might be contacted by the FBI to obtain income tax information OR

The CIA might be contacted to discover what their assets know about some particular matter etc. etc.

All of this requires you to provide some plausible explanations for the following:

1. When a field office Special Agent conducted an interview of someone, is it your contention that if the interviewee mentioned anything which would have contradicted Hoover's alleged instructions (i.e. cause doubt about the Lone Nut theory) -- then those FBI Special Agents universally refused to record in their memos and reports and contact forms anything inconvenient which those interviewees said?

If your answer is "yes they deleted that info" -- THEN have you ever found specific examples of Special Agents coming forward to tell Congressional investigating committees, or their local media (newspapers, television, radio etc) or other sources about what they did to suppress that information?

2. What is your best estimate regarding the number of FBI Special Agents who were assigned to work on JFK assassination-related matters? Would you say at least 150?

If you will agree to that number as a minimum -- then how many of those Agents (or their family members or co-workers who did NOT work on JFK's murder) have ever come forward to support your contention regarding Hoover ordering suppression of anything which could undermine the "Lone Nut" theory?

3. Your assertion pertains to how you claim Hoover arranged for the FBI to suppress inconvenient data but how did Hoover and the FBI prevent persons and agencies and news organizations outside the FBI from developing information that contradicted the alleged FBI instructions?

In other words, many other agencies (civilian and military and the media) had a role in investigating JFK-related leads -- so how did Hoover prevent them from not only discovering information that contradicted the "Lone Nut" theory but also how did Hoover prevent those other entities (including U.S. Secret Service and Police Departments) from memorializing that information in their own memos, reports, contact forms, and articles?

4. You may recall a previous message where I pointed out that the majority of the American people have always doubted the "Lone Nut" theory -- from day one. As Gallup Poll pointed out in November 2013 -- on the 50th anniversary of the assassination:

"Americans were skeptical about the 'lone gunman' theory almost immediately after Kennedy was killed. In a poll conducted Nov. 22-27, 1963, Gallup found that 29% of Americans believed one man was responsible for the shooting and 52% believed others were involved in a conspiracy. A majority of Americans have maintained that 'others were involved' in the shooting each time Gallup has asked this question over the past 50 years, except December 1966, when exactly half of Americans said someone in addition to Oswald was responsible."

5. Why do you think Hoover supposedly invested so much time, energy, and the reputation of the FBI in a theory which most Americans never believed?

Let me put this question slightly differently:

I think you will agree with my observation that Hoover was acutely sensitive to anything that (1) might bring embarrassment to the Bureau or (2) anything that might reduce the trust of the American people in both himself personally as well as the professionalism and competence of the institution he headed.

Therefore, why do you think Hoover would behave so out-of-character and maintain a position which most Americans did not believe and which Americans would naturally attribute to the FBI's incompetence (if the FBI continued to insist the LHO acted alone)?

Edited September 25, 2015 by Ernie Lazar

[Kenneth Drew]

Paul B., I agree that it seems very hard to believe that all the events that transpired immediately after the assassination were only done on the spur of the moment to prevent the public thinking it was a Cuban or Soviet plot. That there just happened to be a spare 'gray' coffin on Air Force One. That secondary transportation for that coffin, separate from the bronze coffin seems to have been pre-planned. That plans were in place to insure that Jackie was not in the room with the body while it could be moved to the other coffin.

All this was put together by Hoover within just a couple hours after the shooting? While I'm willing to give Hoover due credit, I hardly see him as a 'Mastermind". How was it already set up to have two autopsy teams at different facilities? I find it difficult to believe that Edwin Walker had that kind of influence.

Good points, Kenneth, but there are alternatives.

All J. Edgar Hoover had to tell his FBI men was that "there can only be one Lone Gunman, and no other scenario is acceptable." At that point, the FBI Agents were obedient, well-trained, and could make things go right.

The same applies to the Military and SS personnel, under orders from the Pentagon and LBJ, who approved of Hoover's "Lone Nut" strategy shortly after 3pm CST. (This is the timestamp on the FBI memo of Hoover's phone call to RFK, telling RFK that Lee Harvey Oswald was certainly not a Communist and certainly not an FPCC leader -- the very opposite of the reports coming out of Dallas.)

The message of Hoover's plan to LBJ was possibly delivered by McGeorge Bundy. In any case, by 4pm CST all senior FBI, SS, CIA, Mil-Intel, Army, Navy and US Government officials, extending all the way to Bethesda Naval Hospital in Washington DC, were already organizing to fulfill these Presidential Orders in the interest of National Security.

J. Edgar Hoover didn't have to be a "mastermind" at the tactical level -- only at the strategic level -- only in establishing the "Lone Nut" cover-up. After that, everybody chipped in with what was at hand -- including extra coffins, body bags -- everything.

Again -- the resigned General Edwin Walker had no clue about Hoover's Cover-up, and actually Walker opposed Hoover's Cover-up all through 1964. Hoover insisted on a "Lone Nut" Oswald. Walker insisted on an "FPCC Communist" Oswald. See the difference?

Walker wanted an immediate war with Cuba, based on his phony cover-story. Hoover wanted to squelch Walker's cover-story, so he created his own.

IMHO, the resigned General Walker had six months to plan the JFK murder, so it went very well. J. Edgar Hoover had only one hour to formulate the "Lone Nut" cover-up, so it was full of holes.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Certainly possible. LBJ sworn in at 2:38 AF One departed at 2:47 with a gray spare coffin already on board for the body transfer which occurred during the swearing in ceremony. Hoover sure was perceptive to get that coffin there and make that switch before the take off. Do you see that it was Hoover that actually planned that move and ordered the spare coffin on board? I can't figure out how he knew what surgical alterations were going to be necessary prior to the body even arriving in DC, but to send it to two different autopsy rooms within just a couple of hours of each other took some fantastic planning. Just think of how he ordered the copies of the Zapruder sent to the different CIA labs for their modifications and exactly how he knew what alterations the copies needed to make them fit with his story.

I have never heard that Hoover was particularly brilliant, but he must have been darn sharp.

Walker is sure lucky to have had Hoover working in his interest. I don't know how he could have foreseen that.

Paul, I apologize if I was a little repetitive in this comment, just trying to grasp your theory on how Hoover could successfully cover their tracks. Certainly anything is possible and we sure don't know all the answers. Some of your theories on how it could have come down are certainly something to think about.

Kenneth

Edited September 25, 2015 by Kenneth Drew

[Chris Newton]

Hoover sure was perceptive to get that coffin there and make that switch before the take off

The only people who could have taken the body out were SS and LBJ and his staff. I think both Lifton and Horne suggest the body went down to the baggage hold. I don't know if it's suggested it was transferred to a coffin at that time or later. In theory, it could have made the trip in a body bag.

I don't see how Hoover or Walker could have any influence on this undertaking.

[Ernie Lazar]

PAUL -- SOMETHING ELSE TO THINK ABOUT

in November 2013, in the Harry Dean Memoirs thread, Paul introduced us to the idea that LHO was a paid informant for the FBI ($200 monthly) and Paul provided what he understood was LHO's FBI code number (S172) which Paul reported was originally revealed by Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade in 1964. However, in a different message Paul changed LHO's alleged informant code to S179.

Ernie, according to my notes, Dallas DA Henry Wade claimed in January, 1964, that Lee Harvey Oswald had FBI informant number S179. Wade also claimed that Oswald was being paid $200 monthly for providing information to the FBI.

I responded to Paul by pointing out that the code number which Paul identified does not conform to FBI protocols for identifying their informants (paid or otherwise). The usual FBI informant code starts with 2-characters to identify the FBI field office that controls/operates the informant (such as DL for Dallas or CG for Chicago, etc.) and then there is a 3 or 4 digit number -- and there also can be suffixes added to identify the type of informant and whether or not they are available for court testimony.

Recently, I stumbled across the following comment on a JFK-assassination website. As I have written many times, I am not an expert about JFK assassination literature so Paul's original message did not trigger much interest for me other than recognizing that the alleged informant code did not make any sense. Typically, in conspiracy theories, there are multiple stories which are supposedly about the same subject matter but often details or dates or numerical information changes over time --- which is the first clue that something is very wrong.

It turns out that the Dallas District Attorney was NOT the actual source for the information re LHO. Instead the actual source was a Houston Post newspaper reporter (Alonso H. Hudkins III).

I highlight the relevant portion from the JFK assassination website which I noticed this evening---which should remind everyone about how often rumors, gossip, lies, half-truths, and gross exaggerations often become "fact" within conspiracy theories:

"The FBI numbers attributed to Oswald, S172 or S179, did not follow the normal pattern for paid informants, which was: an abbreviation for the agent’s local office (e.g. DL for Dallas, or NO for New Orleans) followed by an arbitrary four–digit number, and finally ‘S’ if the informant provided information on security–related matters. Alonso Hudkins, the journalist at the centre of the affair, later claimed that he had invented the numbers."

For additional info re: Hudkins' unsavory background, see:

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/po-jones/id/960

Edited September 25, 2015 by Ernie Lazar

[Kenneth Drew]

Hoover sure was perceptive to get that coffin there and make that switch before the take off

The only people who could have taken the body out were SS and LBJ and his staff. I think both Lifton and Horne suggest the body went down to the baggage hold. I don't know if it's suggested it was transferred to a coffin at that time or later. In theory, it could have made the trip in a body bag.

I don't see how Hoover or Walker could have any influence on this undertaking.

You are correct Chris, certainly the gray coffin could have been waiting in Washington. In fact, since I've heard that the body was in the gray coffin, in a body bag, it is very likely that it did make the trip in the bag.

[Harry J.Dean]

PAUL -- SOMETHING ELSE TO THINK ABOUT

in November 2013, in the Harry Dean Memoirs thread, Paul introduced us to the idea that LHO was a paid informant for the FBI ($200 monthly) and Paul provided what he understood was LHO's FBI code number (S172) which Paul reported was originally revealed by Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade in 1964. However, in a different message Paul changed LHO's alleged informant code to S179.

Ernie, according to my notes, Dallas DA Henry Wade claimed in January, 1964, that Lee Harvey Oswald had FBI informant number S179. Wade also claimed that Oswald was being paid $200 monthly for providing information to the FBI.

I responded to Paul by pointing out that the code number which Paul identified does not conform to FBI protocols for identifying their informants (paid or otherwise). The usual FBI informant code starts with 2-characters to identify the FBI field office that controls/operates the informant (such as DL for Dallas or CG for Chicago, etc.) and then there is a 3 or 4 digit number -- and there also can be suffixes added to identify the type of informant and whether or not they are available for court testimony.

Recently, I stumbled across the following comment on a JFK-assassination website. As I have written many times, I am not an expert about JFK assassination literature so Paul's original message did not trigger much interest for me other than recognizing that the alleged informant code did not make any sense. Typically, in conspiracy theories, there are multiple stories which are supposedly about the same subject matter but often details or dates or numerical information changes over time --- which is the first clue that something is very wrong.

It turns out that the Dallas District Attorney was NOT the actual source for the information re LHO. Instead the actual source was a Houston Post newspaper reporter (Alonso H. Hudkins III).

I highlight the relevant portion from the JFK assassination website which I noticed this evening---which should remind everyone about how often rumors, gossip, lies, half-truths, and gross exaggerations often become "fact" within conspiracy theories:

"The FBI numbers attributed to Oswald, S172 or S179, did not follow the normal pattern for paid informants, which was: an abbreviation for the agent’s local office (e.g. DL for Dallas, or NO for New Orleans) followed by an arbitrary four–digit number, and finally ‘S’ if the informant provided information on security–related matters. Alonso Hudkins, the journalist at the centre of the affair, later claimed that he had invented the numbers."

For additional info re: Hudkins' unsavory background, see:

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/po-jones/id/960

Hey Ernie, are you a canadian of english foreign by using the foreign term CENTRE as opposed to Americam proper CENTER, or what? a very foreign term!

[Ernie Lazar]

PAUL -- SOMETHING ELSE TO THINK ABOUT

in November 2013, in the Harry Dean Memoirs thread, Paul introduced us to the idea that LHO was a paid informant for the FBI ($200 monthly) and Paul provided what he understood was LHO's FBI code number (S172) which Paul reported was originally revealed by Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade in 1964. However, in a different message Paul changed LHO's alleged informant code to S179.

Ernie, according to my notes, Dallas DA Henry Wade claimed in January, 1964, that Lee Harvey Oswald had FBI informant number S179. Wade also claimed that Oswald was being paid $200 monthly for providing information to the FBI.

I responded to Paul by pointing out that the code number which Paul identified does not conform to FBI protocols for identifying their informants (paid or otherwise). The usual FBI informant code starts with 2-characters to identify the FBI field office that controls/operates the informant (such as DL for Dallas or CG for Chicago, etc.) and then there is a 3 or 4 digit number -- and there also can be suffixes added to identify the type of informant and whether or not they are available for court testimony.

Recently, I stumbled across the following comment on a JFK-assassination website. As I have written many times, I am not an expert about JFK assassination literature so Paul's original message did not trigger much interest for me other than recognizing that the alleged informant code did not make any sense. Typically, in conspiracy theories, there are multiple stories which are supposedly about the same subject matter but often details or dates or numerical information changes over time --- which is the first clue that something is very wrong.

It turns out that the Dallas District Attorney was NOT the actual source for the information re LHO. Instead the actual source was a Houston Post newspaper reporter (Alonso H. Hudkins III).

I highlight the relevant portion from the JFK assassination website which I noticed this evening---which should remind everyone about how often rumors, gossip, lies, half-truths, and gross exaggerations often become "fact" within conspiracy theories:

"The FBI numbers attributed to Oswald, S172 or S179, did not follow the normal pattern for paid informants, which was: an abbreviation for the agent’s local office (e.g. DL for Dallas, or NO for New Orleans) followed by an arbitrary four–digit number, and finally ‘S’ if the informant provided information on security–related matters. Alonso Hudkins, the journalist at the centre of the affair, later claimed that he had invented the numbers."

For additional info re: Hudkins' unsavory background, see:

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/po-jones/id/960

Hey Ernie, are you a canadian of english foreign by using the foreign term CENTRE as opposed to Americam proper CENTER, or what? a very foreign term!

Harry---clean your reading glasses. I did not use the term "centre". I was QUOTING an excerpt from an article on a JFK assassination website. That's why the text I quoted has "quotation marks around it". However, yes, it is a website created by a researcher in the UK. However, if that bothers you, I also found the same information from U.S. sources including from a June 2013 Dallas Morning News article.

Incidentally, if you are interested in the etymology of "centre" -- you may check the Oxford English Dictionary -- the gold standard of the English language. Use of "centre" was commonplace among colonial Americans -- so not really a "foreign" term --- unless you propose to strip the English language of every word that originated in Europe or, for that matter, from Latin -- which was derived from Greek and Phoenician scripts.

POSTSCRIPT: If anybody would like to know how Hudkins got his information which he published in his article in the Houston Post regarding LHO's "informant code" -- let me know because the answer is hilarious.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Ernie Lazar

[Paul Trejo]

Certainly possible. LBJ sworn in at 2:38 AF One departed at 2:47 with a gray spare coffin already on board for the body transfer which occurred during the swearing in ceremony. Hoover sure was perceptive to get that coffin there and make that switch before the take off. Do you see that it was Hoover that actually planned that move and ordered the spare coffin on board? I can't figure out how he knew what surgical alterations were going to be necessary prior to the body even arriving in DC, but to send it to two different autopsy rooms within just a couple of hours of each other took some fantastic planning. Just think of how he ordered the copies of the Zapruder sent to the different CIA labs for their modifications and exactly how he knew what alterations the copies needed to make them fit with his story.

I have never heard that Hoover was particularly brilliant, but he must have been darn sharp.

Walker is sure lucky to have had Hoover working in his interest. I don't know how he could have foreseen that.

Paul, I apologize if I was a little repetitive in this comment, just trying to grasp your theory on how Hoover could successfully cover their tracks. Certainly anything is possible and we sure don't know all the answers. Some of your theories on how it could have come down are certainly something to think about.

Kenneth

Well, Kenneth, I feel I'm failing to make my point with you. Walker did not have Hoover working in his interest -- nor did Walker foresee that.

If there was any "luck", it was simply the "luck" that Hoover chose to Cover-up the Truth about the Right-wing plot to kill JFK -- and thus hide the fact that Walker was the mastermind. But that was not a good outcome for the resigned General Walker.

Walker would not have objected to being named as the JFK Killer -- if and only if Walker had actually attained his goal -- which was the invasion of Cuba.

Like all other US Presidential Assassins, Edwin Walker wanted his political cause to be shouted to the world. But killing JFK was not the main goal of killing JFK in Walker's plot -- rather, the invasion of Cuba was the only successful outcome that Walker would accept.

J. Edgar Hoover actually foiled Walker's plot to "invade-Cuba-by-killing-JFK" by using Hoover's own invention of the "Lone Nut" theory of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Edwin Walker had worked for six solid months -- along with Guy Banister in NOLA -- to portray Lee Harvey Oswald as an FPCC Communist. It was hard work. He even got some CIA Rogues in Mexico City to IMPERSONATE Lee Harvey Oswald in a telephone call from the Cuban Consulate to the USSR Embassy, asking for KGB assassination expert Valerie Kostikov. Walker's plan was extremely elaborate.

When Oswald was arrested in Dallas at about 2pm CST, the messages went forth from Dallas to the FBI that Oswald as an FPCC Communist. This proves that the resigned General Edwin Walker had many accomplices inside Dallas, including officials in high places.

But J. Edgar Hoover was sharp enough to figure it all out in one single hour. By 3pm CST Hoover telephoned RFK to announced that Lee Harvey Oswald was not an FPCC leader and not a Communist.

This proves that Hoover figured out Walker's plot very quickly. Hoover realized that Walker's gang wanted to blame Castro and invade Cuba.

Therefore, with Hoover's Lone Nut theory, the plot of General Walker was foiled. Walker was hopping mad. Walker would have happily gone to prison and face court-martial, if only Cuba had been invaded and Fidel Castro killed. That would have been the honorable outcome in his Radical Right-wing opinion.

Walker was miserable that Hoover kept his political plot from the American people!

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited September 25, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Hoover sure was perceptive to get that coffin there and make that switch before the take off

The only people who could have taken the body out were SS and LBJ and his staff. I think both Lifton and Horne suggest the body went down to the baggage hold. I don't know if it's suggested it was transferred to a coffin at that time or later. In theory, it could have made the trip in a body bag.

I don't see how Hoover or Walker could have any influence on this undertaking.

Well, Chris, I think Hoover had a profound influence by explaining to LBJ and his FBI staff and senior US officials that Edwin Walker wanted the USA to invade Cuba in revenge for the JFK assassination.

Knowing that, LBJ, the Pentagon, the SS and the CIA were all alerted IMMEDIATELY of Hoover's strategy: the "Lone Nut" strategy. On this basis, the plot to blame the shooting on only ONE SHOOTER, became critical in the JFK autopsy. Coordination of the Navy staff at Bethesda Naval Hospital was not complicated once the facts were known and the direction was set.

Yet it was a massive failure. There was evidence of multiple bullets from multiple directions in JFK's brain -- and so ultimately the fake X-rays and photographs had to be hidden or "lost" and hand-drawn pictures given to the Warren Commission.

This part is now historical fact, as you know, provided by Douglas P. Horne of the ARRB (2009).

The point is, again -- Walker had no clue this was going on, and in fact would have opposed it with all his strength.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Paul, what evidence do you have that LBJ was telling people Walker wanted the US to invade Cuba?

That is almost as dramatic as:

"by 3pm CST Hoover telephoned RFK to announced that Lee Harvey Oswald was not an FPCC leader and not a Communist.

This proves that Hoover figured out Walker's plot very quickly. Hoover realized that Walker's gang wanted to blame Castro and invade Cuba."

Do you have any actual proof for your statement that Hoover knew Walker was behind it by 3pm - as in anyone ever hearing something like

that from Hoover or any communication from Hoover on that. Could you also cite the wording from that RFK telephone call that you refer to, we went

through this once before with your claim about what Hoover was doing at 3pm and that proved to be a dead end; it appears that you are now

substituting the RFK call for your proof that Hoover was totally on top of it and launching the cover up as of 3pm Friday. Your criteria for "proof" is

pretty interesting so I'd just like to see a bit of elaboration or verification for your assertion. I'm gathering that claim is also not something anybody has

found in Caufield's book yet?

[Chris Newton]

Well, Chris, I think Hoover had a profound influence by explaining to LBJ and his FBI staff and senior US officials that Edwin Walker wanted the USA to invade Cuba in revenge for the JFK assassination.

Here is my issue with this assertion: There was a whole host of entities that wanted a war with Cuba. Lemay voiced his opinion repeatedly to POTUS (1). CIA obviously wanted to invade Cuba and elements of the cuban exile community under CIA control worked on this specific backstory right after the assassination (2). Even the MAFIA wanted to invade Cuba (see my whole thread on Lake Pontchartrain Camps). LBJ was no genius when it came to foreign policy (3) so how did he recognize the wisdom of NOT invading Cuba and laying responsibility on a lone gunman before Kennedy’s body ever got on AF1? Who advised him?

If you want to separate the killing from the coverup then you will have to show how it was possible for the coverup to evolve within minutes of the killing without any input from participants. Did Hoover call up the Secret Service at Parkland and order them to remove the body to AF1 and then remove the body from the casket and put it in the baggage hold? Unlikely if not impossible.

I submit that the most likely candidate at this point would be Vice Admiral George Burkely as the perp that started the wheels rolling toward Bethesda.

If I was to pick an influencer for LBJ it would be McNamara, (or simply the cabal behind the crime), over Hoover.

(1) http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1996-10-26/news/1996300008_1_cuba-lemay-president-john-f

(2) http://www.history-matters.com/essays/frameup/whatjaneromansaid/images/WCBRING2.JPG

(3) https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/1995-01-01/lyndon-johnson-and-foreign-policy-what-new-documents-show

[Kenneth Drew]

Certainly possible. LBJ sworn in at 2:38 AF One departed at 2:47 with a gray spare coffin already on board for the body transfer which occurred during the swearing in ceremony. Hoover sure was perceptive to get that coffin there and make that switch before the take off. Do you see that it was Hoover that actually planned that move and ordered the spare coffin on board? I can't figure out how he knew what surgical alterations were going to be necessary prior to the body even arriving in DC, but to send it to two different autopsy rooms within just a couple of hours of each other took some fantastic planning. Just think of how he ordered the copies of the Zapruder sent to the different CIA labs for their modifications and exactly how he knew what alterations the copies needed to make them fit with his story.

I have never heard that Hoover was particularly brilliant, but he must have been darn sharp.

Walker is sure lucky to have had Hoover working in his interest. I don't know how he could have foreseen that.

Paul, I apologize if I was a little repetitive in this comment, just trying to grasp your theory on how Hoover could successfully cover their tracks. Certainly anything is possible and we sure don't know all the answers. Some of your theories on how it could have come down are certainly something to think about.

Kenneth

Well, Kenneth, I feel I'm failing to make my point with you. Walker did not have Hoover working in his interest -- nor did Walker foresee that.

If there was any "luck", it was simply the "luck" that Hoover chose to Cover-up the Truth about the Right-wing plot to kill JFK -- and thus hide the fact that Walker was the mastermind. But that was not a good outcome for the resigned General Walker.

Walker would not have objected to being named as the JFK Killer -- if and only if Walker had actually attained his goal -- which was the invasion of Cuba.

Like all other US Presidential Assassins, Edwin Walker wanted his political cause to be shouted to the world. But killing JFK was not the main goal of killing JFK in Walker's plot -- rather, the invasion of Cuba was the only successful outcome that Walker would accept.

J. Edgar Hoover actually foiled Walker's plot to "invade-Cuba-by-killing-JFK" by using Hoover's own invention of the "Lone Nut" theory of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Edwin Walker had worked for six solid months -- along with Guy Banister in NOLA -- to portray Lee Harvey Oswald as an FPCC Communist. It was hard work. He even got some CIA Rogues in Mexico City to IMPERSONATE Lee Harvey Oswald in a telephone call from the Cuban Consulate to the USSR Embassy, asking for KGB assassination expert Valerie Kostikov. Walker's plan was extremely elaborate.

When Oswald was arrested in Dallas at about 2pm CST, the messages went forth from Dallas to the FBI that Oswald as an FPCC Communist. This proves that the resigned General Edwin Walker had many accomplices inside Dallas, including officials in high places.

But J. Edgar Hoover was sharp enough to figure it all out in one single hour. By 3pm CST Hoover telephoned RFK to announced that Lee Harvey Oswald was not an FPCC leader and not a Communist.

This proves that Hoover figured out Walker's plot very quickly. Hoover realized that Walker's gang wanted to blame Castro and invade Cuba.

Therefore, with Hoover's Lone Nut theory, the plot of General Walker was foiled. Walker was hopping mad. Walker would have happily gone to prison and face court-martial, if only Cuba had been invaded and Fidel Castro killed. That would have been the honorable outcome in his Radical Right-wing opinion.

Walker was miserable that Hoover kept his political plot from the American people!

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Well, Kenneth, I feel I'm failing to make my point with you. Walker did not have Hoover working in his interest -- nor did Walker foresee that.

I'll concede I drifted off in that direction, but I thought I recovered by the end of my comment. And yes, I can see how that would frustrate Walker. I see nothing wrong with your overall hypothesis, especially the part where, since the coverup was hatched so quickly, I can see where a heck of a lot of parts didn 't fit and have had to have modifications and caused a lot of attempted re arranging of the evidence to make it fit.

Paul, this conspiracy theory certainly fits better than many I've heard. So I'll keep an open mind.

[Paul Trejo]

Paul, what evidence do you have that LBJ was telling people Walker wanted the US to invade Cuba?

That is almost as dramatic as:

"by 3pm CST Hoover telephoned RFK to announced that Lee Harvey Oswald was not an FPCC leader and not a Communist.

This proves that Hoover figured out Walker's plot very quickly. Hoover realized that Walker's gang wanted to blame Castro and invade Cuba."

Do you have any actual proof for your statement that Hoover knew Walker was behind it by 3pm - as in anyone ever hearing something like that from Hoover or any communication from Hoover on that. Could you also cite the wording from that RFK telephone call that you refer to, we went through this once before with your claim about

what Hoover was doing at 3pm and that proved to be a dead end; it appears that you are now substituting the RFK call for your proof that Hoover was totally on top of it and launching the cover up as of 3pm Friday.

Your criteria for "proof" is pretty interesting so I'd just like to see a bit of elaboration or verification for your assertion. I'm gathering that claim is also not something anybody has found in Caufield's book yet?

Well, Larry, by now I'm fairly well-known for typing "IMHO" multiple times in every post. It means, "In My Humble Opinion."

I am surmising based on FBI documents. For example, we have an FBI document of 11/22/1963 that records Hoovers telephone calls that day. On or about 3pm CST, Hoover called RFK and told him that Lee Harvey Oswald was not an FPCC leader and not a Communist.

That happens to be a historical fact.

We further have FBI reports indicating that reports about Lee Harvey Oswald from Dallas Texas said that Oswald was: (1) a leader of the FPCC; and (2) a Communist. That is another historical fact.

(And no, I don't have my resources with me at present, so I'll allow others to identify those FBI documents. Many of us know they exist.)

Here is the summary of these historical facts. (1) Hoover is being told at 2pm CST that Oswald is an FPCC Communist; and (2) Hoover concludes by 3pm CST that Oswald is the opposite.

IMHO this is an important historical event -- and I'm surprised that in the past half-century, I'm the only one that I know of who has pointed it out consistently.

Now, here is my surmise. The only possible way that Hoover could have known that the information he was getting from Dallas Texas (from officials there) was back-assward, is because Hoover had a big fat file on Lee Harvey Oswald.

Hoover was also close enough to Guy Banister in New Orleans to know very, very well, that the FPCC in New Orleans was a Fake Branch. Hoover and his FBI knew it was Fake with total certainty. There was no question or doubt. So, right away, Hoover knew that Lee Harvey Oswald could not be a leader in the FPCC there in New Orleans, where these TV, radio and newspaper reports had been produced to prove Oswald's "Red" credentials (courtesy Guy Banister and Edwin Walker).

Furthermore, Hoover knew the FPCC well enough so that he knew the names and addresses of every leader of every FPCC branch. I have no doubt.

FURTHERMORE, Hoover knew the names and addresses of every Card-Carrying Communist in the USA, and he was absolutely certain that Lee Harvey Oswald was NOT ON HIS LIST.

Therefore, J. Edgar Hoover --- I surmise from the historical facts -- figured out within one single hour on 11/22/1963, that Lee Harvey Oswald had been set-up as a PATSY for the Radical-Right Wing Conspiracy to murder JFK, so that the FPCC Communists would take the blame.

It was as obvious to Hoover at 3pm CST 11/22/1963 as it is obvious to the reader today.

When the Walker-did-it theory is taken to its full fruition, I believe that these facts and surmises will become apparent to all.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited September 25, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Well, Chris, I think Hoover had a profound influence by explaining to LBJ and his FBI staff and senior US officials that Edwin Walker wanted the USA to invade Cuba in revenge for the JFK assassination.

Here is my issue with this assertion: There was a whole host of entities that wanted a war with Cuba. Lemay voiced his opinion repeatedly to POTUS (1). CIA obviously wanted to invade Cuba and elements of the cuban exile community under CIA control worked on this specific backstory right after the assassination (2). Even the MAFIA wanted to invade Cuba (see my whole thread on Lake Pontchartrain Camps). LBJ was no genius when it came to foreign policy (3) so how did he recognize the wisdom of NOT invading Cuba and laying responsibility on a lone gunman before Kennedy’s body ever got on AF1? Who advised him?

If you want to separate the killing from the coverup then you will have to show how it was possible for the coverup to evolve within minutes of the killing without any input from participants. Did Hoover call up the Secret Service at Parkland and order them to remove the body to AF1 and then remove the body from the casket and put it in the baggage hold? Unlikely if not impossible.

I submit that the most likely candidate at this point would be Vice Admiral George Burkely as the perp that started the wheels rolling toward Bethesda.

If I was to pick an influencer for LBJ it would be McNamara, (or simply the cabal behind the crime), over Hoover.

OK, Chris, these are good points. Let me see if I can deal with them.

You ask who advised LBJ before JFK's body ever left AF1, about the wisdom of blaming a "Lone Shooter" instead of an FPCC Communist plot. My theory is that it was none other than J. Edgar Hoover. Here is what LBJ wrote to Hoover only one week later (11/29/1963):

"I've got more confidence in your judgment than anybody in town. So you just put down some of the things you think ought to happen and I won't involve you or quote you or get you in jurisdictional disputes or anything, but I'd like to at least advocate them as my opinion." (LBJ to Hoover, 11/29/1963)

The issue as LBJ put it, was nuclear war. I think he was right -- others may think he was over-reacting. But riots in the middle of the Cold War could have led to USSR meddling, and that could have led to WW3, IMHO.

I think Hoover explained to LBJ that JFK was killed by a Radical Right Conspiracy, to push us into a war with Cuba -- and that there wasn't enough evidence to honestly blame the FPCC or the Communists for the murder of JFK. It was Walker and his boys -- saw Hoover -- IMHO.

I think I've already shown, Chris, how the Coverup evolved 2.5 hours of the murder -- from 12:30 pm to 3pm CST. Hoover figured out the plot, and he created his Lone Nut theory of Lee Harvey Oswald -- and he stuck to it like glue -- and he forced all FBI agents to stick to it like glue -- and he sold it to LBJ (probably through McGeorge Bundy) and from LBJ to the CIA, SS, Pentagon, Allen Dulles, etc. within minutes.

That's all it would take to organize the Coverup. Our Pentagon truly is that loyal to the POTUS. Naturally, Admiral Burkely and Robert McNamara would be included in this Coverup strategy.

As for the authors of the strategy, there is plenty of evidence, IMHO, that Hoover was the mastermind of the Coverup. Professor David Wrone has produced ample evidence, IMHO.

Hoover didn't have to do anything but propose the "Lone Nut" theory -- with its single command -- Blame Lee Harvey Oswald and him ALONE, dammit!

IMHO our Pentagon, CIA, SS, FBI, MI and so on, are THAT GOOD. On LBJ's orders they devised the tactics to support Hoover's strategy before JFK's body arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital. They were and remain THAT GOOD.

It is not only possible -- it is extremely LIKELY, in my humble opinion.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited September 25, 2015 by Paul Trejo