Chief Curry Wanted Heavily Armed DPD Officers Directly Behind JFK's Car

[David Von Pein]

Here's a little tidbit of information that I was unaware of until reading some of Jesse Curry's Warren Commission testimony today....

It seems as though the Dallas Police Department wanted to have one of their cars (which would have contained Homicide Captain Will Fritz and some heavily-armed DPD detectives) positioned between President Kennedy's car and the Secret Service follow-up car during the motorcade through Dallas on 11/22/63.

But the Secret Service said no to that plan---and I can certainly see why. The "Queen Mary" SS follow-up car, of course, is equipped with running boards for the agents to stand on, whereas I don't think any car provided by the DPD would be so equipped. So it would have been a very bad decision to have placed the SS car further behind JFK's car in the event of trouble. That would have meant that agents Clint Hill (et al) would have had Fritz' car between them and the President---and that's just dumb, IMO. And I guess the Secret Service thought so too.

Plus, I think that putting a car between the President's vehicle and the SS car would have been a major violation of Secret Service protocol and standard procedures for Presidential protection. I have never seen any photos or films which had ANY vehicle placed between the President's limousine and the SS follow-up car. Sometimes, in fact, the SS car gets so close to JFK's car that the bumpers are almost touching (such as in the photos below). So it's no wonder the SS nixed the DPD's idea.

But I just wonder if some conspiracy theorists think that this testimony given by Chief Curry reveals part of the alleged "security stripping" that some CTers think took place in Dallas on November 22nd? ....

---------------------------------

[WC Testimony On:]

DALLAS POLICE CHIEF JESSE E. CURRY - We had planned to have Captain Fritz and some of his homicide detectives immediately following the President's car which we have in the past, we have always done this.

Mr. RANKIN - Now, would that be between the President's car and the Secret Service?

Mr. CURRY - And the Secret Service. We have in past done this. We have been immediately behind the President's car.

[DVP INTERJECTION: I wonder when this strange occurrence would have occurred? I have my doubts that it ever did occur with respect to a Presidential motorcade. It sounds like a ridiculous motorcade arrangement to me, making the job of the Secret Service even more difficult.]

Mr. RANKIN - Did you propose that to someone?

Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.

Mr. RANKIN - Who did you propose it to?

Mr. CURRY - To Mr. Lawson and Mr. Sellers.

Mr. RANKIN - What did they say about that?

Mr. CURRY - They didn't want it.

Mr. RANKIN - Did they tell you why?

Mr. CURRY - They said the Secret Service would be there.

Mr. RANKIN - And then?

Mr. CURRY - They said we can put this vehicle in between Captain Fritz and his detectives immediately at the end of the motorcade. They said, "No, we want a white or marked car there bringing up the rear," so Fritz and his men were not in the motorcade.

Mr. DULLES - What do you mean in the past when there have been previous Presidents visiting Dallas or other dignitaries?

Mr. CURRY - Yes; that is right; other dignitaries. Yes; our thinking along this was that in the past there have been this. Captain Fritz, he is a very experienced homicide man so are his detectives. They know the city very well. They have been there very, Captain Fritz to my knowledge, over 40 years. It is customary that they in trying to protect a person if they are in the immediate vicinity, and Captain Fritz told me later, he said, "I believe that had we been there we might possibly have got that man before he got out of that building or we would have maybe had the opportunity of firing at him while he was still firing" because they were equipped, would have been equipped with high-powered rifles and machine guns, submachine guns.

Representative FORD - Where were they instead of being at the motorcade.

Mr. CURRY - Actually they were not in the motorcade at all. They followed up the motorcade.

Representative FORD - Were they in a car following up the motorcade?

Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; they were in a car.

Representative FORD - How far away would they have been?

Mr. CURRY - I think they would have been at the rear, I believe.

Representative FORD - Captain Fritz is going to be here later.

Mr. RANKIN - Yes.

Representative FORD - And fill in what he did at that time?

Mr. RANKIN - Yes.

Mr. CURRY - But we tried to do what the Secret Service asked us to do, and we didn't try to override them because we didn't feel it was our responsibility, that it was their responsibility to tell us what they wanted and we would try to provide it.

Mr. RANKIN - Did you refuse to do anything that they asked you to do?

Mr. CURRY - No, sir; not to my knowledge we don't--we didn't refuse them to do anything.

Mr. DULLES - You considered them to be the boss in this particular situation?

Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir; the Secret Service; yes, sir.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/curry1.htm

---------------------------

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/11/secret-service.html

Edited July 30, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Ron Ecker]

In the same testimony Curry said that they wanted more motorcycles beside the limo, but the Secret Service wanted fewer and wanted them moved back. I believe this is called security stripping, although Curry didn't use that term.

Mr. CURRY - In the planning of this motorcade, we had had more motorcycles lined up to be with the President's car, but the Secret Service didn't want that many.
Mr. RANKIN - Did they tell you why?
Mr. CURRY - We actually had two on each side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.
Mr. RANKIN - How many motorcycles did you have?
Mr. CURRY - I think we had four on each side of him.
Mr. RANKIN - How many did you want to have?
Mr. CURRY - We actually had two on each side side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did.
Mr. RANKIN - So that you in fact only had two on each side of his car?
Mr. CURRY - Two on each side and they asked them to remain at the rear fender so if the crowd moved in on him they could move in to protect him from the crowd.
Mr. RANKIN - Who asked him to stay at the rear fender?
Mr. CURRY - I believe Mr. Lawson.
Mr. RANKIN - The Secret Service man?
Mr. CURRY - Yes, sir.

[Greg Burnham]

[David Von Pein]

In the same testimony Curry said that they wanted more motorcycles beside the limo, but the Secret Service wanted fewer and wanted them moved back. I believe this is called security stripping, although Curry didn't use that term.

Yes, I noticed the "four motorcycles on each side" request by Chief Curry too. However, once again, photographs of many pre-November 22 motorcades suggest that there were rarely (if ever) four cycles on each side of President Kennedy's car during motorcades. There were almost always TWO cycles flanking each side of the President's car, just exactly the same as in Dallas on 11/22/63, such as in the two pre-Nov. 22 examples seen below:

And I also have several pictures of JFK in motorcades where there are zero motorcycles riding beside his limo, such as these examples:

So if Chief Curry had received his request for EIGHT motorcycles flanking JFK's limousine (four on each side), it would most certainly have been a very unusual cycle configuration for a Kennedy motorcade, to be sure.

Edited July 30, 2015 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

That's hilarious, Greg. Thanks for creating it. I love it!

How did you create that funny article to make it look like a newspaper article? Is there a "Fake Newspaper" program that's available to download? I'd like to try doing that myself sometime. I could invent a paper called "The Patsy Press", featuring such bombshell headlines as:

Conspiracy Theorists Declare Oswald Innocent! Fuzzy Image That Is Essentially Worthless For Positive Identification Indicates That Oswald Was On Front Stoop Of Depository Saying A Prayer For Fidel When JFK Was Killed, CTers Say!

and....

Oswald Innocent Of Slaying Police Officer! All Evidence Was Faked! One Dozen Eyewitnesses Coerced By Crooked Dallas Cops Into Positively IDing The Former Marine As Either Tippit's Killer Or As Gunman Fleeing Scene Of Crime, Conspiracists Assure Us!

Edited July 30, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Ron Ecker]

So if Chief Curry had received his request for EIGHT motorcycles flanking JFK's limousine (four on each side), it would most certainly have been a very unusual cycle configuration for a Kennedy motorcade, to be sure.

Maybe Chief Curry, knowing Dallas as he did, thought it might be advisable to have more than the usual number of motorcycles around JFK's limo. The Secret Service of course didn't see it that way, and the rest is history.

[David Von Pein]

Maybe Chief Curry, knowing Dallas as he did, thought it might be advisable to have more than the usual number of motorcycles around JFK's limo.

That's quite possible indeed, Ron.

But do you think the extra four cops on motorcycles would have been able to prevent President Kennedy from getting hit in the head by a bullet fired by a rifleman who was hiding somewhere in Dealey Plaza?

Edited July 30, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Ron Ecker]

"But do you think the extra four cops on motorcycles would have been able to prevent President Kennedy from getting hit in the head by a bullet fired by a rifleman who was hiding somewhere in Dealey Plaza?"

Perhaps not. All I know is that the SS wanted no protection around the limo at all beyond the rear fenders. It wanted no camera truck in front, it wanted no armed cops behind, and it did not want the guy with the "football" in the middle of the front seat. You know, in case a shot through the windshield might be needed.

P.S. I wish I could learn how the quote function works on this forum.

Edited July 31, 2015 by Ron Ecker

[David Von Pein]

Perhaps not. All I know is that the SS wanted no protection around the limo at all beyond the rear fenders. It wanted no camera truck in front, it wanted no armed cops behind, and it did not want the guy with the "football" in the middle of the front seat. You know, in case a shot through the windshield might be needed.

But we know for a fact that in many motorcades prior to 11/22/63, those very things you just mentioned also occurred -- i.e., nobody riding in the middle of the front seat of JFK's car, only "rear fender" motorcycle escorts, etc.

Check out JFK's parade through the streets of San Diego on June 6, 1963, in the video below. Except for the presence of a press truck at the front of the motorcade, the configuration of the motorcade and the cycles and the lack of any military aide sitting in the middle of the front seat is exactly the same in San Diego as it was in Dallas on November 22nd. And yet I don't hear any CTers griping about any "security stripping" or "standdown" when it comes to this San Diego excursion....

jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/08/jfk-in-san-diego-june-6-1963.html

Edited July 31, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Ron Ecker]

Check out JFK's parade through the streets of San Diego on June 6, 1963, in the video below. Except for the presence of a press truck at the front of the motorcade, the configuration of the motorcade and the cycles and the lack of any military aide sitting in the middle of the front seat is exactly the same in San Diego as it was in Dallas on November 22nd. And yet I don't hear any CTers griping about any "security stripping" or "standdown" when it comes to this San Diego excursion....

I don't know about San Diego. I believe that the military aide stated that he was supposed to ride in the JFK limo in Dallas but was put in another car well back in the motorcade.

I'm not going to play ping pong with you. Chao.

[Greg Parker]

Check out JFK's parade through the streets of San Diego on June 6, 1963, in the video below. Except for the presence of a press truck at the front of the motorcade, the configuration of the motorcade and the cycles and the lack of any military aide sitting in the middle of the front seat is exactly the same in San Diego as it was in Dallas on November 22nd. And yet I don't hear any CTers griping about any "security stripping" or "standdown" when it comes to this San Diego excursion....

I don't know about San Diego. I believe that the military aide stated that he was supposed to ride in the JFK limo in Dallas but was put in another car well back in the motorcade.

I'm not going to play ping pong with you. Chao.

Ron,

all that takes to knock the wind out of the windbag is to remind him that Stephenson hadn't just been attacked in San Diego, that San Diego was not noted as a city of hate and that no one had issued warnings that Kennedy would be in serious trouble if he went ahead with the San Diego trip. All of those things should have meant extra security, not stripped back security.

Now it's the windbag's turn to claim Kennedy ordered the security stripping himself....

Edited July 31, 2015 by Greg Parker

[Vince Palamara]

The one photo is from Milwaukee- multi-story rooftops were guarded, a common occurrence BEFORE Dallas (see the link that follows all of this).

The two photos with the partial bubble, one of which has a couple agents (including Kellerman) walking close by the limo, have the military lining the street and are from WASHINGTON, D.C.- any Washington, D.C. motorcade from FDR-Obama encompasses heavy security, NOT always of the overt kind (buildings watched/rooftops guarded, police mingling in the crowds, etc.)

The San Diego thing cracks me up to no end- I HAVE STILL PHOTOS FROM THAT TRIP IN MY BOOK! As "Welton Hartford", DVP posts a video of the San Diego trip in an attempt to debunk security stripping and so forth. Meanwhile, besides the 3 flatbeds of still/ motion/live television press coverage he notes in front of the limo, MARINES LINE THE STREET AND FACE THE CROWDS, SAIC Behn was on the trip riding in the limo, multi story building rooftops were guarded (as confirmed by San Diego police outriders, thus confirming my general research beforehand) and the police intermingled in the crowds; THAT is how the Secret Service "overcame" their manpower shortages. John McAdams tried the still photo "gotcha" game years ago with still shots (one each) of the Ireland and Hawaii trips. Yet, not only did agents intermittently walk/jog with the limo, once again, multi story buildings were guarded and police were intermingled in the crowds, common security measures used FDR-JFK (and beyond).

http://vincepalamara.com/building-rooftops-were-regularly-guarded-during-the-fdr-truman-ike-and-jfk-eras/

see also:

http://henryrybkadonlawtonjfksecretservice.blogspot.com/2014/12/don-lawton-debunks-clint-hill.html

and

http://jfkkennedy.blogspot.com/

and

http://jfkbubbletop.blogspot.com/

THE REAL STORY:

-JFK could be seen by the people just fine, just as FDR, Truman, Ike, and other presidents could with the agents on the rear of the limo. The agents did not block the public from seeing the president- this is a myth, pure and simple:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZjF3KMPUsU

-Only those seeking to cover up would still cling to the false notion that JFK ordered the agents off his limo- he did not. This is another myth, pure and simple

http://www.ctka.net/reviews/kennedydetailreview.html

Blaine and Hill ONLY came out with their books because of my letter to Hill that caused quite a panic between them (best friends since their days in the Denver field office in the late 1950's). Hill is a false hero: he drank the night before and should have been booted out of the service, got to the limo after the shooting was over and done with, never even touched Jackie (who got in and out of the limo of her own volition), and now profits greatly from the death of the president (not like the rest of us who have to work for a living LOL). Hill is also still married and...well...read this:

http://vincepalamara.com/2014/01/01/sa-david-grant/

[Vince Palamara]

Blaine was caught red-handed by Larry Sabato (who references my work) on the issue of the roofs being guarded in Tampa four short days before Dallas. The Tampa motorcade was FAR longer than Dallas; in fact, it was the longest domestic motorcade JFK ever had (the longest was Berlin- both trips were models of security)! So, they had the manpower to guard multi story rooftops but NOT in Dallas?!?!?

http://vincepalamara.com/2013/10/22/sneaking-in-some-propaganda-how-gerald-blaine-attempted-and-failed-to-address-my-blogs-and-by-extension-my-forthcoming-book-in-larry-sabatos-best-selling-2013-book-th/

a researcher in Florida wrote me: “Vince, I watched JFK in Tampa 50th Anniversary on PBS in Tampa last night. Guess who 2 of the main narrators were? Agents Blaine and Zboril spreading their usual bull about how JFK ordered them off the back of the car in Tampa because he wanted to be seen and how shocked they were. And yet every film, both private and professional in this documentary showed the agents riding on the back of the limo or running alongside. I guess we should believe them and not our lying eyes! It went into great detail about how there was an officer on every building and officers and agents in the streets to control the crowds. One film that really stuck out was a clip that showed 4 agents on the sides of the Queen Mary, 2 on the back of the limo and 2 running on the sides. Then you get Blaine smirking about what fun that trip was not knowing what lay ahead later that week.”

MANDATORY READING:

http://www.sott.net/article/269016-Gerald-Blaine-and-the-Kennedy-Detail-Was-the-Secret-Service-Stood-Down-in-Dallas

http://eastorlandopost.com/dirty-secret-secret-service-president-kennedy-should-have-lived

http://www.vanityfair.com/news/politics/2014/10/secret-service-jfk-assassination

http://eastorlandopost.com/did-secret-service-lay-down-jfk

[Vince Palamara]

P.S. A detective car was used on the 3/23/63 Chicago trip(along with a police helicopter scanning the route, the Black Horse mounted police troops, ole DON LAWTON riding on the rear of the limo, and 6 motorcycles surrounding the limo-see my book for the actual reprint of the Secret Service report) and on the 11/15/63 New York trip

I know all of this is breaking your heart, DVP, because you like defending those ole [expletives deleted] who failed to protect JFK, but such is life

Your buddies did not defend the agents:

Vince Bugliosi letter to Vince Palamara dated 7/14/07:

“I want you to know that I am very impressed with your research abilities and the enormous amount of work you put into your investigation of the Secret Service regarding the assassination. You are, unquestionably, the main authority on the Secret Service with regard to the assassination. I agree with you that they did not do a good job protecting the president (e.g. see p. 1443 of my book)…”

Howard Willens message to Vince Palamara dated 7/23/13:

"I definitely agree that the Secret Service could and should have done more to protect the President, which seems to be your focus.”

Edited August 1, 2015 by Vince Palamara

[James DiEugenio]

That was excellent Vince.

DVP used an alias, Weldon Hartford?

And he got this trick from John McAdams?

And its all a bunch of BS.

Wow, what a surprise. Bad day for Davey.

Thanks Vince.

Edited August 1, 2015 by James DiEugenio