Some JFK Debate Traps (see if you recognize anyone)

[Mark Knight]

Just this one LNer, and no other person in the assassination community? Now I understand.

No, I'm afraid you don't. It's not the exclusive domain of one person. I've seen the same tactics used by people on all sides of the JFK assassination debate. It's simply that one person comes to mind much more quickly than the others because the full spectrum of logical fallacies is employed. Others, on both sides of the debate, seem to specialize in one or two or three of them.

[Mark Knight]

Okay, Mark, fair enough.

Does that mean you'll reread post #12 with an open mind?

[David Von Pein]

Yes, Mark, I agree with everything you said in Post #12.

[Mark Knight]

Ok, then. We are where I intended to be with that post.

I thought that once you read my words without seeking any hidden agenda, we might find one piece of common ground.

Not everything in life HAS to be confrontational. I am merely a seeker of truth.

[Thomas Graves]

Just this one LNer, and no other person in the assassination community? Now I understand.

No, I'm afraid you don't. It's not the exclusive domain of one person. I've seen the same tactics used by people on all sides of the JFK assassination debate. It's simply that one person comes to mind much more quickly than the others because the full spectrum of logical fallacies is employed. Others, on both sides of the debate, seem to specialize in one or two or three of them.

[emphasis added by T. Graves]

Yes, Mark.

One certainly does come immediately to my mind --

D. J. !

At least DVP can spell. LOL

--Tommy

[Greg Parker]

It's "absurd" to follow the evidence to where it leads, Jon?

Not at all.

But it is absurd to ignore the indicators of a frame when you are dealing with a man who claimed to be framed by a police force and DA's now infamous for the number of innocent people they locked up with planted evidence, falsified statements,what is known here as "police verbals", rigged juries, terrified defense counsels and crooked judges.

How did that evil DPD force get Oswald to act so guilty and to tell so many lies?

Or did the DPD coerce Oswald to be part of his own frame-up? (Boy, they were good, weren't they?)

And you're not going to sit there and tell me you DON'T think Oswald acted "guilty" in the movie theater, are you Greg?

What lies, David? You simply take the word of others when, given what we know now, you ought not do that.

Second sentence falls somewhere into the logical fallacy mix. I think yours, like your name-sake's tend to be hybrids.

Well, what was McDonald's first statement to the media? He was calm and gave no trouble...

But we'd know for sure if Ron Reiland had not - probably for the first time in his professional career, used the wrong lens filter. How unlucky was that - your big mistake on the biggest case...

Edited August 3, 2015 by Greg Parker

[David Von Pein]

What lies, David? You simply take the word of others when, given what we know now, you ought not do that.

And you just take the word of the person who was charged with two murders, is that it?

You think, therefore, that the DPD was more likely to lie than was the person who was trying to kill members of the DPD in the Texas Theater?

You ought not do that. (IMO.)

Well, what was McDonald's first statement to the media? He was calm and gave no trouble.

You mean this one?....

"He was cool and calm up until the time that he made that jump for me." -- Officer M.N. McDonald; 11/23/63

But we'd know for sure if Ron Reiland had not - probably for the first time in his professional career, used the wrong lens filter. How unlucky was that - your big mistake on the biggest case.

Are you suggesting that there was something sinister going on with Ron Reiland's film?

And, btw, how would Reiland's film have told us "for sure" if there was a fight in the theater even if Reiland had used the correct filter on his camera? He only filmed a brief snippet of Oswald after the police had already handcuffed him and were leading him out of the theater. Are you saying that Reiland actually filmed the fight between McDonald and Oswald? I don't think he did.

Here is Reiland's film (narrated by Reiland himself):

dvp-potpourri.blogspot.com/2009/12/reiland-film-november-22-1963.html

Edited August 3, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Greg Parker]

Q: Patrolman McDonald, in your experience with suspects and in the capture of such individuals, did you find anything unique or strange or different about Lee Harvey Oswald?

McDonald: Well, not anything you can put your finger on, but he acted like anyone else would if they were carrying a pistol, because he reached for it immediately as soon as I grabbed a hold of him and my experience with suspects of this nature, they're all pretty calm unless they have recently or within a few minutes have committed some sort of crime. But he had time enough between the time he had in suspected [sic] of killing of JD Tippit to control his nature and was quite calm and cool.

Compare to Bentley: "His left hand reached for the pistol with his right hand and as he reached for his pistol [???] I grabbed him along with two or three other officers. He fought with like a wild man"

Are those statements consistent?

Q: Did you realize at the time that you may be capturing the man who quite possibly could be charged and perhaps convicted of assassinating the President?

McDonald: Well, I had no link in that at all because I didn't know. I was just looking for this suspect that we had a meager description of, that had shot and killed officer JD Tippit. And, I didn't have any association with the shooting of the President at all with this particular suspect.

--->No idea???? This is from Vic Robertson's WCT:

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you opened up the curtains and looked out, did you have any idea that this might be the man who would be accused of shooting the President?
Mr. ROBERTSON. If I hadn't, I wouldn't have been there.

--->So the media knew, but the cops didn't?

Re Reiland: McAdams claimed Reiland was a well known idiot. Like McAdams actually knows and wasn't pulling that out of the same place you pull your excuses.

Here is Victor Robertson, who was there with Reiland and who testified to witnessing the whole thing. He also testified that he was confident Reiland got it all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you see the police officers doing as you got there?

Mr. ROBERTSON. It was kind of confused. He rose in his seat. and lifted his arm with his pistol just about simultaneously with the time they landed all over him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear him say anything?
Mr. ROBERTSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far were you from him?
Mr. ROBERTSON. About three or four rows.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many feet would that be?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Possibly 10.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any of the police officers say anything?
Mr. ROBERTSON. The officer in charge said as they were taking him out of the theatre, "Don't let anyone see his face," or words to that effect. "Don't let anyone touch him."
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you inside the Texas Theatre before you saw Oswald rise out of his seat?
Mr. ROBERTSON. A matter of a length of time it takes to walk from the door to those curtains and pull them apart. It was a matter of seconds.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, just as you pulled apart the curtains, you were able to see him?
Mr. ROBERTSON. Well, there is a slight delay there. When I arrived inside the theatre, the main portion of the theatre itself with the audience, it was still dark. I think the camera equipment must have been turned off, because I have no recollection of sound, and it was still dark when I opened the curtains. But the lights came on almost immediately, and the screen, of course, was blank at that time, and then again, just seconds, he rose, and they took him in custody.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How close was your photographer to you?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I don't have any idea. He was there someplace shooting his pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if he got a picture of that episode?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I thought he did until just the other day when they told me he didn't. Apparently the filter in the camera was in the wrong place.

[David Von Pein]

What a bunch of nitpicking there, Greg.

You're actually trying to impeach McDonald by using Bentley's "he fought like a wild man" quote?? Geez.

Well, AFTER McDonald approached Oswald--and AFTER Oswald had exhibited his "cool and calm" demeanor--Oswald DID fight like a wild man--even McDonald said that.

So, where's the discrepancy? I see none. You're just trying desperately to find something you can hitch your CT wagon to (as per usual).

And that Robertson testimony is hardly proof that Reiland actually filmed the McDonald/Oswald fight....

Mr. GRIFFIN. How close was your photographer to you?
Mr. ROBERTSON. I don't have any idea. He was there someplace shooting his pictures.

Yeah, that sounds really definitive there, Greg.

If Reiland HAD filmed the actual fight in the theater, I'm guessing that that footage (even if it was pitch dark) would have been shown on WFAA-TV on 11/22/63. After all, WFAA televised the really crappy-looking and very dark snippet of Reiland's film showing Oswald being led out of the theater, which is virtually worthless footage because it's so dark. So why wouldn't they show another really dark portion of the film--featuring the actual fight--if Reiland had filmed it? I think they would have.

Then, too, perhaps a portion of the pitch-blackness we see in the Reiland film IS the theater fight between Oswald and the police. It's impossible to tell.

Edited August 3, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Greg Parker]

He fought only in self-defense. You know it.

Now say it with me... the DPD and the DA's office gained international notoriety for arresting and prosecuting and sending to jail lots and lots of innocent people using all manner of tricks and frauds.

Once you can admit that reality, we can move on.

Take the step, Dave and admit that was what they all became known for. Admit that Oswald was DPD stitch up #4283 instead of pretending that the evidence was handled by the cleanest cops on earth and not he most infamously corrupt force in modern history.

[David Von Pein]

He fought only in self-defense. You know it.

Total B.S. Your nonsense is laughable.

Oswald whipped out a gun and tried to shoot McDonald with it. Stop pretending otherwise.

The CTers' continual attempts at twisting the truth regarding the McDonald/Oswald theater encounter are sickening.

Even Oswald himself admitted that he fought with the police in the theater....

"Oswald admitted to carrying a pistol with him to this movie, stating he did this because he felt like it, giving no other reason. Oswald further admitted attempting to fight the Dallas police officers who arrested him in this movie theater when he received a cut and a bump." -- 11/22/63 FBI Report by James Hosty and James Bookhout; Warren Report, p.613

But Greg Parker thinks Oswald slugged Officer McDonald in the face and pulled out a gun merely in "self-defense", which is pure tommyrot. McDonald hadn't even drawn his gun when he approached Oswald. So where does any "self defense" argument come into play? Did Oswald think McDonald was going to strangle him with his bare hands?

Self defense? Hilarious. And typical CTer desperation.

Nice job, Greg. Your recent posts further illustrate just how pathetic and paper-thin all conspiracy arguments truly are. Please keep it up.

[Greg Parker]

He fought only in self-defense. You know it.

Total B.S. Your nonsense is laughable.

Oswald whipped out a gun and tried to shoot McDonald with it. Stop pretending otherwise.

The CTers' continual attempts at twisting the truth regarding the McDonald/Oswald theater encounter are sickening.

Even Oswald himself admitted that he fought with the police in the theater....

"Oswald admitted to carrying a pistol with him to this movie, stating he did this because he felt like it, giving no other reason. Oswald further admitted attempting to fight the Dallas police officers who arrested him in this movie theater when he received a cut and a bump." -- 11/22/63 FBI Report by James Hosty and James Bookhout; Warren Report, p.613

But Greg Parker thinks Oswald slugged Officer McDonald in the face and pulled out a gun merely in "self-defense", which is pure tommyrot. McDonald hadn't even drawn his gun when he approached Oswald. So where does any "self defense" argument come into play? Did Oswald think McDonald was going to strangle him with his bare hands?

Self defense? Hilarious. And typical CTer desperation.

Nice job, Greg. Your recent posts further illustrate just how pathetic and paper-thin all conspiracy arguments truly are. Please keep it up.

More examples of this thread is about. Well done!

I'm sure you'll run the gamut of them before this thread winds up.

[David Von Pein]

You don't even think Oswald had a gun in the theater, do you Greg?

Admit it---you think he was unarmed, don't you?

Edited August 3, 2015 by David Von Pein

[Greg Parker]

You don't even think Oswald had a gun in the theater, do you Greg?

Admit it---you think he was unarmed, don't you?

I'm not ashamed to be skeptical about any official story put out by proven rogues and benders of the laws.

You need to admit you are more than happy to turn a blind eye to the evidence uncovered over the last few decades showing the disgraceful malfeasance of law enforcement in Dallas during the Wade era. You willfully ignore all of that, don't you, Dave?

[David Von Pein]

You need to admit you are more than happy to turn a blind eye to the evidence uncovered over the last few decades showing the disgraceful malfeasance of law enforcement in Dallas during the Wade era. You willfully ignore all of that, don't you, Dave?

It's irrelevant in THIS (JFK) case. Oswald's actions pretty much convict him. And the DPD couldn't possibly have controlled those actions.

Plus, the US Secret Service would have had to also be in bed with the evil DPD in order for Oswald to be innocent (realistically), since the DPD never even touched CE399 or the two front-seat bullet fragments, all three of which were fired in Oswald's rifle.

So, how did the DPD get the SS (and the FBI too) to jump on board the LET'S FRAME OSWALD gravy train?

Edited August 3, 2015 by David Von Pein