Thomas Graves Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) Tommie, Yes. The property you described is the Big 7 Rd. Camp in my opinion. The Mclaney Cottage is at approximately 61027 31st St. Lacombe, la., in my opinion. PS to cut down on confusion lets agree to call camp A the "Big 7 Camp" and the camp B the "Dixie Ranch Camp" Chris, Got it. 61027 N. 31st Street. Twelve acres. Do you think anything was seized there? --Tommy Edited August 18, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 Yes. 1 or 2 U-Haul Trailers containing explosives, detonators and various bomb making materials including materials for making napalm. About 2500 lbs. of material. I don't think anyone was arrested or detained on that property. The neighbors may have been questioned. This is the most complete report I've read about the Raid. At first it seems to be only the press clipping but it has other documents added and the strange list of names. http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%20Materials/Garrison%20News%20Clippings/1967/67-03/67-03-036.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) Yes. 1 or 2 U-Haul Trailers containing explosives, detonators and various bomb making materials including materials for making napalm. About 2500 lbs. of material. I don't think anyone was arrested or detained on that property. The neighbors may have been questioned. This is the most complete report I've read about the Raid. At first it seems to be only the press clipping but it has other documents added and the strange list of names. http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/White%20Materials/Garrison%20News%20Clippings/1967/67-03/67-03-036.pdf Fascinating stuff, Chris. Regarding the following list of (mostly) Cubans at the "Lacombe raid": Victor Dominador Espinosa Hernandez, Carlos Eduardo Hernandez Sanchez, John Koch Gene, Acelo Pedros Amores, Miguel Alvarez Jimenez, Antonio Soto Vasquez, Sam Benton, Byron Chiverton, Rich Lauchli or Luchli, Earl J. Wasem Jr., Ralph Folkerts I assume these were the guys who were "seized" during the N. 31st Street raid, but "not arrested, charged, or even booked" ? According to the document, in 1967 Garrison was allegedly interested in locating a "Manuel Garcia Gonzales," but he's not on the list. I've read that Dean Andrews made up this name and, as a kind of test, gave it to Garrison as someone with whom Oswald had been seen. --Tommy Edited August 18, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 I'm still researching the actual camps and trying to determine if there's any evidence of physical "presence" and not really concentrating on their operational usefulness. The presence of a cache of explosives nine miles (straight line) distance from an airfield and one or two training sites does not add up to possible air mission. I read one semi-credible but incomplete report involving Hemming and Rorke and nothing else except rumors or innuendo. I haven't gotten there yet. There was guy from Canada who napalmed Haiti, so it's entirely possible... http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dempsey%20William/Item%2001.pdf note: there's a really amusing exchange at the bottom of page three between the Head of the Canadian Justice Department and a reporter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) I assume that they were the guys who were "seized" during the N. 31st Street raid, but "not arrested, charged, or even booked" ? Tommie, That's the "rub". No one has been able to figure out what that list means. They got the McLaney's neighbor on the stand in front of a N.O. Grand Jury and asked him if he was arrested? Nope. Questioned? Nope. Asked by Garrison why his name was on the list? I don't know. There's no information except they are people that were of interest to the FBI apparently in regards to the raid. Some of these people are serious real deal - Lauchli is the #2 guy in the Minutemen Edited August 18, 2015 by Chris Newton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) I assume that they were the guys who were "seized" during the N. 31st Street raid, but "not arrested, charged, or even booked" ? Tommie, That's the "rub". No one has been able to figure out what that list means. They got the McLaney's neighbor on the stand in front of a N.O. Grand Jury and asked him if he was arrested? Nope. Questioned? Nope. Asked by Garrison why his name was on the list? I don't know. There's no information except they are people that were of interest to the FBI apparently in regards to the raid. Some of these people are serious real deal - Lauchli is the #2 guy in the Minutemen Chris, The two antithetical "working theories" -- The reason none of the "Lacombe Eleven" were arrested was because they were associated with the CIA. --OR -- Mike McClaney, a friend of JFK and RFK, had arranged for the ammunition and explosives to be stored at his brother's cottage after the Miami raid six weeks earlier, and the "Lacombe Eleven" were let off by the Kennedys as a favor to McClaney. https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q87Rrxyh9wC&pg=PA183&dq=%22the+mclaney+camp%22+%22mdc+camp%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAGoVChMIsY7G_PqxxwIVxtCACh3qMw01#v=onepage&q=%22the%20mclaney%20camp%22%20%22mdc%20camp%22&f=false It is interesting that the next door neighbor, Byron Chiverton, told the grand jury that after the raid he had expected the FBI to contact him about it -- in fact he called the FBI afterwards to tell them what he knew about the situation -- but they never came. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/garr/grandjury/Plotkin/html/Plotkin_0017b.htm --Tommy Edited August 18, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) I assume that they were the guys who were "seized" during the N. 31st Street raid, but "not arrested, charged, or even booked" ? Tommie, That's the "rub". No one has been able to figure out what that list means. They got the McLaney's neighbor on the stand in front of a N.O. Grand Jury and asked him if he was arrested? Nope. Questioned? Nope. Asked by Garrison why his name was on the list? I don't know. There's no information except they are people that were of interest to the FBI apparently in regards to the raid. Some of these people are serious real deal - Lauchli is the #2 guy in the Minutemen Yes, and John Koch Gene, too. In this Weisberg memo, some reference is made to the possibility that a Miguel Alverez Jiminez and a Antonio Soto Vasquez were also among those who were apprehended and quickly released. http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Training%20Camps/Item%2046.pdf Regarding the place where the airplanes could have taken off from, I've read that Acelo Pedros Amores told a federal agency that the B-25 or B-26 bombers were at an airstrip forty miles west of New Orleans. http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/T%20Disk/Training%20Camps/Item%2018.pdf --Tommy Now, regarding "Camp A" -- The Weisberg memo, above, says that Ricardo Davis' ex-girfriend (17 y.o. in 1963) described his training camp as having a landmark swimming pool. And, from the McAdams website we have this CIA document: "The internal documents of the CIA show an intense interest in the Garrison prosecution of Clay Shaw, since Garrison had targetted the CIA as prime suspect in his supposed assassination conspiracy. So the CIA was concerned with the question of what Garrison might discover, and about whom. The most concise treatment of the issue is the following memo from Lawrence Houston, General Counsel of the CIA." -- McAdams 29 September 1967 MEMORANDUM FOR: Director of Central Intelligence SUBJECT: Clay L. Shaw's Trial and the Central Intelligence Agency [...] a. A witness, Carlos Quiroga, might testify that Ferrie was a friend of Sergio Arcacha Smith, who was associated with the Cuban Democratic Revolutionary Front (CDRF) until January or February 1962 and that Ferrie and Arcacha Smith were involved in a cache of arms in 1961. Garrison attempted to extradite Arcacha Smith from Texas to testify before the Grand Jury but was not successful. The CDRF was funded by CIA in Miami, and Arcacha Smith was with the New Orleans branch. b. Rudolph Ricardo Davis might testify about a training camp across the lake from New Orleans, possibly at Lacombe, Louisiana, run by a Cuban exile group (MDC) not affiliated with CIA, and that connected with this camp were Victor Paneque and Fernando Fernandez. Davis claims he met Oswald in the fall of 1963 in connection with anti-Castro activities. Paneque was also identified by Quiroga, the possible witness mentioned above, as having been in charge of the training camp at Lacombe, which Garrison falsely asserts was run by CIA. Our Miami Station was interested in Paneque in August 1964 and requested a provisional clearance, but a report of 5 October 1965 stated that Paneque would be dropped at the end of that month for lack of any immediate operational use for him. The Fernandez mentioned by Davis was also identified by one Michael W. Laborde as being the head of the Cuban organization for which Laborde's father, Lawrence J. Laborde, had worked. Fernandez was a contact of the Miami Station. [sENTENCE REDACTED] Lawrence Laborde was a contact of the Miami Station in 1961 and 1962 and served as an officer on a ship used for CIA Cuban operations. [...] http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/shawcia.htm Edited August 18, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) I assume that they were the guys who were "seized" during the N. 31st Street raid, but "not arrested, charged, or even booked" ? Tommie, That's the "rub". No one has been able to figure out what that list means. They got the McLaney's neighbor on the stand in front of a N.O. Grand Jury and asked him if he was arrested? Nope. Questioned? Nope. Asked by Garrison why his name was on the list? I don't know. There's no information except they are people that were of interest to the FBI apparently in regards to the raid. Some of these people are serious real deal - Lauchli is the #2 guy in the Minutemen Chris, There are two antithetical "working theories" : The reason none of the "Lacombe Eleven" were arrested was because they were associated with the CIA. --OR -- Mike McClaney, a friend of JFK and RFK, had arranged for the ammunition and explosives to be stored at his brother's cottage after the Miami raid six weeks earlier, and the "Lacombe Eleven" were let off by the Kennedys either as a favor to McClaney or ... because it was part of the AMWORLD project. https://books.google.com/books?id=7Q87Rrxyh9wC&pg=PA183&dq=%22the+mclaney+camp%22+%22mdc+camp%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAGoVChMIsY7G_PqxxwIVxtCACh3qMw01#v=onepage&q=%22the%20mclaney%20camp%22%20%22mdc%20camp%22&f=false It is interesting that the next door neighbor, Byron Chiverton, told the grand jury that after the raid he had expected the FBI to contact him about it -- in fact he called the FBI afterwards to tell them what he knew about the situation -- but they never came. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/garr/grandjury/Plotkin/html/Plotkin_0017b.htm --Tommy edited and bumped Edited August 18, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 It is interesting that the next door neighbor, Byron Chiverton, told the grand jury that after the raid he had expected the FBI to contact him about it -- in fact he called the FBI afterwards to tell them what he knew about the situation -- but they never came. I don't think he's telling the entire story. If the McLaneys were your neighbors and you were be asked these questions what would your priority be? As far as the FBI goes, I don't think they intended Garrison to get the list that was just luck. There are two locals on the list - and yes I've seen different lists - suggesting that not everyone is listed for the same reasons. The big question is why were the other people on the list? Did Lauchli bring the ammo there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 It is interesting that the next door neighbor, Byron Chiverton, told the grand jury that after the raid he had expected the FBI to contact him about it -- in fact he called the FBI afterwards to tell them what he knew about the situation -- but they never came. I don't think he's telling the entire story. If the McLaneys were your neighbors and you were be asked these questions what would your priority be? As far as the FBI goes, I don't think they intended Garrison to get the list that was just luck. There are two locals on the list - and yes I've seen different lists - suggesting that not everyone is listed for the same reasons. The big question is why were the other people on the list? Did Lauchli bring the ammo there? Chris, Could Camp "A" (the MDC camp on Big 7 Road) have been part of the Kennedy / Manuel Aritime / CIA "AMWORLD" program? --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 Could Camp "A" (the MDC camp on Big 7 Road) have been part of the Kennedy / Manuel Aritime / CIA "AMWORLD" program? No. I don't think that works for a number of reasons. One is that the "players", the MDC guys and Manuel Artime guys, are two separate factions of anti-Castro Cubans that don't really mix well. You have the Batista guys and then you have the guys that fought Batista until Fidel took over. They only played nice when Rip Robertson put his foot down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) Could Camp "A" (the MDC camp on Big 7 Road) have been part of the Kennedy / Manuel Aritime / CIA "AMWORLD" program? No. I don't think that works for a number of reasons. One is that the "players", the MDC guys and Manuel Artime guys, are two separate factions of anti-Castro Cubans that don't really mix well. You have the Batista guys and then you have the guys that fought Batista until Fidel took over. They only played nice when Rip Robertson put his foot down. Chris, Okay, then how about Camp "C", Bill McLaney's Cottage on 31st Street? Just wondering. You know a lot more about this stuff than I do... --Tommy Edited August 18, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) Tommie, I think you're trying to put to much into Angel's description. Where did he hear gunfire coming from six years prior? If any gunfire came from the cottage would that rule out Dixie Ranch? The cottage is two miles from Big 7. I don't know where all the camps are but we are pretty sure one had guns and one didn't. We agree that the Big 7 matches more closely to the one that didn't. My money is on Dixie Ranch for the shooters but I'm still exploring and researching that assumption. Edited August 18, 2015 by Chris Newton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted August 18, 2015 Share Posted August 18, 2015 Tommie, I think you're trying to put to much into Angel's description. Where did he hear gunfire coming from six years prior? If any gunfire came from the cottage would that rule out Dixie Ranch? The cottage is two miles from Big 7. I don't know where all the camps are but we are pretty sure one had guns and one didn't. We agree that the Big 7 matches more closely to the one that didn't. My money is on Dixie Ranch for the shooters but I'm still exploring and researching that assumption. Chris, I guess what I'm fishing for is whether or not there was an Artime / AMWORLD camp somewhere around Lacombe. --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share Posted August 18, 2015 I guess what I'm fishing for is whether or not there was an Artime / AMWORLD camp somewhere around Lacombe. Yes. I think the Dixie Ranch location is probably the camp where we would find the hardcore guys. I remember a quote by Hemming stating to the affect that "all the biggest Cuban terrorists were there". You wouldn't send these guys to a camp with no guns -they aren't going to be making smores. I think there is another "camp" along the north shore of Lake Pontchartrain, a third camp, possibly right on the lake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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