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Did Gloria Calvery almost catch up to Marion Baker?


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In previous threads, I believe serious doubt has been cast upon the identification of a woman loitering down near the Stemmons sign post-assassination as being Gloria Calvery.

Linda turned up an interesting piece from FindaGrave concerning Gloria Calvery:

Immediately following the assassination she ran back to the TSBD, following about 10-15 feet behind the sprinting DPD Officer, Marrion Baker, and they went up the front steps and into the building, as was partially captured on the Cook-Darnell Film and recounted in eyewitness testimony:
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/niteprowler147/bl3_zps34f39e84.gif

In his Warren Commission testimony, a TSBD co-worker, Joe Molina, who had been positioned on the landing of the steps during the motorcade, stated he encountered a "horrified" Gloria Calvery in the entryway ~20-30 seconds after the final shot and she explained that she had seen the fatal head shot:

Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary[sic]?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be interesting to know who wrote this piece, and whether or not that person has taken liberties with the truth.

In the first paragraph, I would like to know whose eyewitness testimony placed Ms. Calvery 10-15 feet behind Baker as they approached the steps.

As to the second paragraph, Joe Molina's WC testimony does not state that Ms. Calvery was in the entryway 20-30 seconds after the final shot.

However, how far was it for Ms. Calvery to run up the Elm St. sidewalk to the steps? Could she have done it in just a few seconds longer than it took Baker to race his motorcycle to the sidewalk, park it and run up to the TSBD entrance?

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In previous threads, I believe serious doubt has been cast upon the identification of a woman loitering down near the Stemmons sign post-assassination as being Gloria Calvery.

Linda turned up an interesting piece from FindaGrave concerning Gloria Calvery:

Immediately following the assassination she ran back to the TSBD, following about 10-15 feet behind the sprinting DPD Officer, Marrion Baker, and they went up the front steps and into the building, as was partially captured on the Cook-Darnell Film and recounted in eyewitness testimony:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/niteprowler147/bl3_zps34f39e84.gif

In his Warren Commission testimony, a TSBD co-worker, Joe Molina, who had been positioned on the landing of the steps during the motorcade, stated he encountered a "horrified" Gloria Calvery in the entryway ~20-30 seconds after the final shot and she explained that she had seen the fatal head shot:

Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary[sic]?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?

Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.

Mr. BALL. What did she say?

Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It would be interesting to know who wrote this piece, and whether or not that person has taken liberties with the truth.

In the first paragraph, I would like to know whose eyewitness testimony placed Ms. Calvery 10-15 feet behind Baker as they approached the steps.

As to the second paragraph, Joe Molina's WC testimony does not state that Ms. Calvery was in the entryway 20-30 seconds after the final shot.

However, how far was it for Ms. Calvery to run up the Elm St. sidewalk to the steps? Could she have done it in just a few seconds longer than it took Baker to race his motorcycle to the sidewalk, park it and run up to the TSBD entrance?

I think whoever wrote that at FindaGrave (Linda?) made the innocent mistake of assuming the woman running in Couch / Darnell was Gloria Calvery.

What do you think happened, Robert?

Do you think whoever wrote that is part of the cover up conspiracy?

Are you only concerned with what didn't happen?

What evidence do you have for what you think did happen?

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Totally irrelevant questions, Thomas, and also misleading.

The question on the table is, could Gloria Calvery have, after the final shot, run quickly enough up Elm St. to put her 10-15 feet behind Marrion Baker, as seen in the Darnell/Couch film?

Why couldn't the running woman in Couch/Darnell be Gloria Calvary?

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On 8/26/2015 at 10:07 PM, Robert Prudhomme said:

Totally irrelevant questions, Thomas, and also misleading.

The question on the table is, could Gloria Calvery have, after the final shot, run quickly enough up Elm St. to put her 10-15 feet behind Marrion Baker, as seen in the Darnell/Couch film?

Why couldn't the running woman in Couch/Darnell be Gloria Calvary?

Well, Robert.

How were my questions totally irrelevant and misleading? Misleading?

The apparently dark-complected woman (face in shade?) identified by many / most researchers as Gloria Jean Calvery (standing with those two other women down by the Stemmons Freeway sign on Elm Street) was caught on film a few seconds after the assassination walking calmly with those two other women up the sidewalk on Elm Srteet in the general direction of the TSBD. So if she was walking, I think it's safe to say she wasn't running. And she's approaching the TSBD from a completely different direction than the woman running in Couch / Darnell. Also, as you well know, the clothes this Gloria Jean Calvery (the apparently dark complected woman) was wearing were different from the clothes the running woman was wearing. So that's why the running woman couldn't be Gloria Jean Calvery, IMHFO.

I know from previous posts that you doubt that the apparently dark-complected woman was Gloria Jean Calvery. Have you changed your mind?

Or conversely, do you think the running woman in Couch / Darnell was Calvery and that Calvery simply wasn't watching the motorcade where she said she was watching it, and with whom she said she was watching it?

What's your current position on all this if you don't mind my asking.

--Tommy :sun

PS I do think the apparently dark-complected woman down by the Stemmons sign could have walked up the Elm Street sidewalk to the TSBD in 30-40 seconds, and encountered Joe Molina there roughly in the time frame he mentioned. What do you think, Robert?

Where do you think the real Gloria Jean Calvery was standing during the motorcade? If you don't think the apparently dark-complected woman was Calvery, who do you think the apparently dark-complected woman was?

An unknown or unaccounted-for friend or co-worker of Carol Reed and Karan Hicks?

 

3/22/18  Edit: 

I now believe that the dark-complected woman "by the Stemmons Sign" was self-described native American Stella Mae Jacob, that Gloria Calvery was the largish woman standing directly to the left of John Templin in the Z-Film, that she cold have run to the TSBD steps within 20 seconds of the assassination, and that the "Running Woman" on Elm Street Extension in Couch-Darnell was Peggy Burney.

 

--  TG

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I think the dark complected, dark haired woman traditionally ID'ed as Gloria Calvary looks nothing like Gloria Calvery, and that it is pointless to continue to pretend that she is Gloria Calvery.

How do we know that the woman seen running in the Darnell/Couch film approached from a different direction? Could she not have run up the Elm St. sidewalk and crossed the Elm St. extension just before the camera caught her, running just behind Baker?

My position on Calvery? She might have been watching the motorcade where she claimed she was, AND she may also be the woman seen running in Darnell/Couch. The question is, could she have covered that much ground in enough time to be seen running just behind Baker? Could Baker's time of 20 seconds from last shot until entering the TSBD have been altered to suit the 2nd floor encounter?

Something very strange happened on the front steps, and a lot of the stories told by the people on or near it just don't match up as, for instance, Gloria Calvery's, Bill Shelley's and Billy Lovelady's.

P.S.

I don't know who the dark complected woman was and, at this point, don't particularly care. I just know that she is not Gloria Calvery, despite the fact she may have passed the vaunted "waittress" test.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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Robert,

You covered this in your other topic:

Who saw Baker enter the TSBD?

I supplied this for you then.

If you can't find her in the corresponding areas, time/distance estimates are a moot point. imo

Find her first, then move on to time/distance.

chris

post-5057-0-27054400-1440696716_thumb.jpg

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149407954_1437197023.jpg

Wedding photo of Gloria Calvery, July 19, 1963; four months before the assassination. She would have been twenty years old in her wedding photo. Hard to reconcile the face with this woman:

3-women.jpg

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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Robert,

You covered this in your other topic:

Who saw Baker enter the TSBD?

I supplied this for you then.

If you can't find her in the corresponding areas, time/distance estimates are a moot point. imo

Find her first, then move on to time/distance.

chris

Thanks Chris.

Anyone wondering where the apparently dark-complected woman was when JFK was shot should look closely at the photo in the lower right corner of the montage. Blow it up. Find the "Stemmons Freeway Keep Right" sign. (Hint: It has a vertical blue line running through it. In fact, the blue line is running through Calvery's colleague, Carol Reed, in all three photos.) Look at the three women who are standing under that sign, and also note the two boys standing to the left of them wearing their special school or club jackets. The woman standing under the "T" in "RIGHT" is the apparently dark-complected woman we've been talking about. To the left of her is blond Karan Hicks, and to the left of Karan is tall, blue scarf wearing Carol Reed.

So the question remains: Did the apparently dark-complected woman have enough time to walk up the Elm Street sidewalk and get to the TSBD in time to encounter Joe Molina roughly when he said Gloria Calvery did?

I believe she did.

--Tommy :sun

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Robert,

You covered this in your other topic:

Who saw Baker enter the TSBD?

I supplied this for you then.

If you can't find her in the corresponding areas, time/distance estimates are a moot point. imo

Find her first, then move on to time/distance.

chris

Thanks Chris.

Anyone wondering where the apparently dark-complected woman was when JFK was shot should look closely at the photo in the lower right corner of the montage. Blow it up. Find the "Stemmons Freeway Keep Right" sign. (Hint: It has a vertical blue line running through it. In fact, the blue line is running through Calvery's colleague, Carol Reed, in all three photos.) Look at the three women who are standing under that sign, and also note the two boys standing to the left of them wearing their special school or club jackets. The woman standing under the "T" in "RIGHT" is the apparently dark-complected woman we've been talking about. To the left of her is blond Karan Hicks, and to the left of Karan is tall, blue scarf wearing Carol Reed.

So the question remains: Did the apparently dark-complected woman have enough time to walk up the Elm Street sidewalk and get to the TSBD in time to encounter Joe Molina roughly when he said Gloria Calvery did?

I believe she did.

--Tommy :sun

You're changing the subject again, Thomas. You're also asking us to assume that Gloria Calvery entered the TSBD as soon as she arrived at the steps, yet there is no evidence to support this. On the contrary, we have Lovelady's and Shelley's testimony telling us she remained on the steps for some time before entering the building. In other words, she could have RUN up the Elm St. sidewalk, almost on Baker's heels as seen in Darnell/Couch, and stayed on the steps to talk for a minute or two, thus making the meeting with Molina occur long after.

Let me guess, the woman is apparently dark complected, but you aren't convinced she actually is, right?

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Robert,

You covered this in your other topic:

Who saw Baker enter the TSBD?

I supplied this for you then.

If you can't find her in the corresponding areas, time/distance estimates are a moot point. imo

Find her first, then move on to time/distance.

chris

Thanks Chris.

Anyone wondering where the apparently dark-complected woman was when JFK was shot should look closely at the photo in the lower right corner of the montage. Blow it up. Find the "Stemmons Freeway Keep Right" sign. (Hint: It has a vertical blue line running through it. In fact, the blue line is running through Calvery's colleague, Carol Reed, in all three photos.) Look at the three women who are standing under that sign, and also note the two boys standing to the left of them wearing their special school or club jackets. The woman standing under the "T" in "RIGHT" is the apparently dark-complected woman we've been talking about. To the left of her is blond Karan Hicks, and to the left of Karan is tall, blue scarf wearing Carol Reed.

So the question remains: Did the apparently dark-complected woman have enough time to walk up the Elm Street sidewalk and get to the TSBD in time to encounter Joe Molina roughly when he said Gloria Calvery did?

I believe she did.

--Tommy :sun

You're changing the subject again, Thomas. You're also asking us to assume that Gloria Calvery entered the TSBD as soon as she arrived at the steps, yet there is no evidence to support this. On the contrary, we have Lovelady's and Shelley's testimony telling us she remained on the steps for some time before entering the building. In other words, she could have RUN up the Elm St. sidewalk, almost on Baker's heels as seen in Darnell/Couch, and stayed on the steps to talk for a minute or two, thus making the meeting with Molina occur long after.

Let me guess, the woman is apparently dark complected, but you aren't convinced she actually is, right?

Relax, Bob.

I changed the subject? You asked if Gloria Jean Calvery had enough time to get to the TSBD in thirty seconds or so and encounter Joe Molina, and I answered it. How did I "change the subject," Bob?

Correct, Bob. I'm not convinced that Gloria Jean Calvery (the woman standing with Carol Reed and Karan Hicks in the photographs) was dark-complected. Her face looks like it's in the shade in all the photos I've seen of her, so it's hard to tell.

What are you asking us to assume, Bob? That Carol Reed and Karan Hicks lied about who they were with when JFK was shot? That Gloria Calvery lied about who she was with when JFK was shot? That the FBI lied for all of them?

You seem to think that Running Woman in Couch / Darnell was Gloria Calvery. Am I correct in that assumption?

If so, then I gotta ask: Where's the other woman whom Molina said was with Calvery?

And where was this Running Woman during the motorcade?

Or am I just changing the subject, again?

--Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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149407954_1437197023.jpg

Wedding photo of Gloria Calvery, July 19, 1963; four months before the assassination. She would have been twenty years old in her wedding photo. Hard to reconcile the face with this woman:

3-women.jpg

The attachment makes much more sense. imo

Now match this Calvery (dress code wise) with the woman in Darnell.

Sounds pretty much like a group statement minus the personal info.

chris

P.S.

Hopefully the significance of where they physically were standing(Station# wise) when stating the first shot arises, is not lost upon you.

post-5057-0-35027800-1440708460_thumb.jpg

post-5057-0-27916200-1440708469_thumb.jpg

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149407954_1437197023.jpg

Wedding photo of Gloria Calvery, July 19, 1963; four months before the assassination. She would have been twenty years old in her wedding photo. Hard to reconcile the face with this woman:

3-women.jpg

The attachment makes much more sense. imo

Now match this Calvery (dress code wise) with the woman in Darnell.

Sounds pretty much like a group statement minus the personal info.

chris

P.S.

Hopefully the significance of where they physically were standing(Station# wise) when stating the first shot arises, is not lost upon you.

Chris,

Have any of the women standing near #4 been identified as Reed, Hicks, or Westbrook?

Thanks,

--Tommy :sun

PS I'm pretty stupid, so things are "lost upon me" all the time. (lol)

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Thomas,

I do not know.

We do have the mis-labeling of Calvery, imo, supposedly from a Darnell frame. I'm not sure if that frame/photo has ever been substantiated.

Secondly, if Calvery is mis-identified, why not the other women.

Hopefully, somebody has a decent photo of Hicks/Reed for comparative purposes to the Darnell frame.

chris

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Perhaps no one understands the perspective I am taking on this matter, a matter in which Gloria Calvery is but one cog in a very large wheel of deception.

It should be obvious to anyone who has read the testimonies of persons such as Baker, Truly, Vickie Adams, Bill Shelley, Billy Lovelady, Wesley Frazier and others that the different versions of the "truth" being told are so out of tune with each other, only a small percentage of them can be true. As well, each version is so far from reality, it cannot be explained away by innocent "mis-remembering" on the part of an eyewitness.

We have to accept the fact that not only did someone lie, a whole lot of someones lied. The trick is to figure who they are and why they lied or, in some cases, were lied for in FBI reports.

For the umpteenth time, look at Baker's run to the TSBD (notice I did not say INTO the TSBD). This is one of the few things that is more or less verifiable by film. We see the motorcade at a standstill, and one of the cameramen in the motorcade captures Baker on film running to the TSBD. It seems plausible that he has actually done this in 20 seconds after the last shot, as he claimed.

That is where reality stops, though. We next have Shelley and Lovelady who testified, in complete contradiction of their first day statements, that they remained on the TSBD steps for 3-4 minutes following the last shot, and did not leave the steps UNTIL Gloria Calvery returned to the steps with the news of the assassination. And yet, miraculously, they testified to being 25 steps down the Elm St. extension when they looked back and saw Baker and Truly entering the TSBD.

Am I the only one to see a problem here? Were they outrageously lying, or did Baker not enter the TSBD immediately?

P.S.

"If so, then I gotta ask: Where's the other woman whom Molina said was with Calvery?"

If Molina met them inside the lobby, and did not see Gloria Calvery returning to the TSBD, how would he know if Gloria Calvery had returned to the TSBD alone, or in the company of another woman? She could have met up with the woman after she returned.

Remember, Thomas, we cannot read things into testimony that are not there.

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