Robert Prudhomme Posted August 28, 2015 Author Share Posted August 28, 2015 Haven't seen Linda in a few days. I would like to see her apply her investigative skills to deducing where Gloria Calvery was during and immediately after the assassination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Davidson Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 One of the few unlabeled in this, is the person I suspect matches Calvery in the Darnell/Baker frame. I do not know who created this. chris Robert, The multi- name labeled photo including Mary Woodward appears to be correct. MARY ELIZABETH WOODWARD, 4812 Alcott, employee, Woman's News, "Dallas Morning News," Dallas, Texas, advised that she, AURELIA ALONZO, MARGARET BROWN and ANNE DONALDSON, on November 22, 1963 left the office of the "Dallas Morning NEWS" just about 12:00 noon to observe the Presidential Motorcade. They walked to Elm Street and stopped in front of the Texas School Book Depository building, but were located a short distance down the street near the second light post. They were standing in this spot when the Presidential Motorcade came by There is a light post #1 near the signal light at the Elm St annex corner. The unidentified woman near Mary Woodward, clothing wise, appears to match the woman in Darnell. Her distance from where she is standing in Z to "between the TSBD curb and annex" is 120ft. Close enough. 20 seconds @120ft = 4.08mph If Gloria Calvery is labeled correctly, she is 30ft farther west than Mary Woodward but can't be the woman in Darnell, wrong skirt color. imo chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted August 28, 2015 Author Share Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) One of the few unlabeled in this, is the person I suspect matches Calvery in the Darnell/Baker frame. I do not know who created this. chris Robert, The multi- name labeled photo including Mary Woodward appears to be correct. MARY ELIZABETH WOODWARD, 4812 Alcott, employee, Woman's News, "Dallas Morning News," Dallas, Texas, advised that she, AURELIA ALONZO, MARGARET BROWN and ANNE DONALDSON, on November 22, 1963 left the office of the "Dallas Morning NEWS" just about 12:00 noon to observe the Presidential Motorcade. They walked to Elm Street and stopped in front of the Texas School Book Depository building, but were located a short distance down the street near the second light post. They were standing in this spot when the Presidential Motorcade came by There is a light post #1 near the signal light at the Elm St annex corner. The unidentified woman near Mary Woodward, clothing wise, appears to match the woman in Darnell. Her distance from where she is standing in Z to "between the TSBD curb and annex" is 120ft. Close enough. 20 seconds @120ft = 4.08mph If Gloria Calvery is labeled correctly, she is 30ft farther west than Mary Woodward but can't be the woman in Darnell, wrong skirt color. imo chris Hi Chris I wonder just exactly what is meant by "between the TSBD curb and annex" and how close that would be to the TSBD steps. If, as you have calculated, the speed required is 4.08 mph, that is not really all that fast. A man at a fast walk can easily do 4 mph, and that lady in the Couch/Darnell film was definitely booking it. The problem with ID'ing and locating Calvery is that the women in the group she was in all gave statements to the FBI, and their stories seem to corroborate each other very well as being just west of the position Mary Woodward was in. However, once again, they are recorded in the form of FBI reports; written in the third person and not signed by the person giving the statement (likely never seen by that person either). We have seen, time and again, how the FBI re-wrote the contents of these reports and never informed the subject. Could there have been a concerted effort by the FBI to place Calvery somewhere she wasn't? She does seem to be the focal point of the only two witnesses who can vouch for Baker entering the TSBD when he and Truly claim he did. Edited August 28, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) One of the few unlabeled in this, is the person I suspect matches Calvery in the Darnell/Baker frame. I do not know who created this. chris Robert, The multi- name labeled photo including Mary Woodward appears to be correct. MARY ELIZABETH WOODWARD, 4812 Alcott, employee, Woman's News, "Dallas Morning News," Dallas, Texas, advised that she, AURELIA ALONZO, MARGARET BROWN and ANNE DONALDSON, on November 22, 1963 left the office of the "Dallas Morning NEWS" just about 12:00 noon to observe the Presidential Motorcade. They walked to Elm Street and stopped in front of the Texas School Book Depository building, but were located a short distance down the street near the second light post. They were standing in this spot when the Presidential Motorcade came by There is a light post #1 near the signal light at the Elm St annex corner. The unidentified woman near Mary Woodward, clothing wise, appears to match the woman in Darnell. Her distance from where she is standing in Z to "between the TSBD curb and annex" is 120ft. Close enough. 20 seconds @120ft = 4.08mph If Gloria Calvery is labeled correctly, she is 30ft farther west than Mary Woodward but can't be the woman in Darnell, wrong skirt color. imo chris Hi Chris I wonder just exactly what is meant by "between the TSBD curb and annex" and how close that would be to the TSBD steps. If, as you have calculated, the speed required is 4.08 mph, that is not really all that fast. A man at a fast walk can easily do 4 mph, and that lady in the Couch/Darnell film was definitely booking it. The problem with ID'ing and locating Calvery is that the women in the group she was in all gave statements to the FBI, and their stories seem to corroborate each other very well as being just west of the position Mary Woodward was in. However, once again, they are recorded in the form of FBI reports; written in the third person and not signed by the person giving the statement (likely never seen by that person either). We have seen, time and again, how the FBI re-wrote the contents of these reports and never informed the subject. Could there have been a concerted effort by the FBI to place Calvery somewhere she wasn't? She does seem to be the focal point of the only two witnesses who can vouch for Baker entering the TSBD when he and Truly claim he did. Robert, The statements Calvery, Hicks, Reed, and Woodward made to the FBI were written in the first person singular, and what they said was put in quotation marks. Why do you say that their statements were written in the third person? A big mystery: Why did the bad guys (Lovelady and Shelley) mention Calvery? Why didn't they say they decided on their own to leave the steps and go looking around "because lots of other people were doing it" or "we were curious"? Didn't they complicate their bad-guy story by mixing Calvery up in it? How could they imagine that she could / would support the apparent lie that they had stayed on the steps for three minutes? --Tommy Edited August 29, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 So, were they lying when they said they were 25 steps down the Elm St. extension and looked back to see Baker/Truly entering the TSBD? While that may well be Calvery seen running behind Baker in the film, it is still impossible for her to beat Baker to the steps, talk to S & L, and for them to be down the street where everyone believes they can see them walking together in the film, BEFORE Baker and Truly go up the steps. (personally, I don't believe that is Shelley and Lovelady seen walking "together" in the film) As I suggested in another thread, one way to make a lot of testimonies and statements work would be to have Baker ascending the TSBD steps much later than he claimed. P.S. My mistake on those statements regarding the third person statuses. However, they are still FBI statements, and past experience in this case has made it very clear that any evidence from the FBI should be examined carefully as it may be altered or fabricated. It is interesting to read the statements of Hicks, Calvery and Westbrook. Their statements, in some parts, are practically the same, word for word; almost as if one person had written them. Coincidence? Despite the fact these statements are written in the first person, I have looked at the originals and do not see a signature on any of them. Further, each statement is "witnessed" by two FBI agents. Is this supposed to lend some kind of credibility to these statements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) "A big mystery: Why did the bad guys (Lovelady and Shelley) mention Calvery? Why didn't they say they decided on their own to leave the steps and go looking around "because lots of other people were doing it" or "we were curious"? Didn't they complicate their bad-guy story by mixing Calvery up in it? How could they imagine that she could / would support the apparent lie that they had stayed on the steps for three minutes?" Shelley mentioned speaking to Gloria Calvery, out on the little concrete island, in his first day statement, and that he learned the details of the assassination from her then. Perhaps, when it came time to tell the contrived version of events to the WC, someone felt it might be wise to have him keep as much of the original story in the new one as possible. Edited August 29, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted August 29, 2015 Share Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) So, were they lying when they said they were 25 steps down the Elm St. extension and looked back to see Baker/Truly entering the TSBD? While that may well be Calvery seen running behind Baker in the film, it is still impossible for her to beat Baker to the steps, talk to S & L, and for them to be down the street where everyone believes they can see them walking together in the film, BEFORE Baker and Truly go up the steps. (personally, I don't believe that is Shelley and Lovelady seen walking "together" in the film) As I suggested in another thread, one way to make a lot of testimonies and statements work would be to have Baker ascending the TSBD steps much later than he claimed. P.S. My mistake on those statements regarding the third person statuses. However, they are still FBI statements, and past experience in this case has made it very clear that any evidence from the FBI should be examined carefully as it may be altered or fabricated. It is interesting to read the statements of Hicks, Calvery and Westbrook. Their statements, in some parts, are practically the same, word for word; almost as if one person had written them. Coincidence? Despite the fact these statements are written in the first person, I have looked at the originals and do not see a signature on any of them. Further, each statement is "witnessed" by two FBI agents. Is this supposed to lend some kind of credibility to these statements? Robert, One possibility is that we are looking at typed-up copies or carbon copies of the originals and that "/s/Gloria Calvery (for example) at the bottom of the statement means that the originals were signed. Why do you not think that's Lovelady and Shelley in Couch / Darnell? Just don't think it looks like them? Would their being there at that time conflict with something? Why not say "that's them" in Couch / Darnell, and that's Calvery running there, too, and Shelley blew it when he mentioned in his first day's statement that he had spoken with Calvery on the island three minutes after the assassination when in reality he and Lovelady had just heard her yell out something like "The President's been shot!" when she ran past them, not far from the island. some 20 to 30 seconds after the final shot? I think it's easy to recognize Lovelady's short, stocky stature and distinctive "hairline" in that footage, and skinny Shelley's suit and "hairdo," too. --Tommy Edited August 30, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) If you just look at the supposed still of S & L, it is easy to believe the two men are strolling together down the Elm St. extension. However, if you watch the film, you can see the one fellow (can't recall if it is the Shelley or Lovelady lookalike) actually catches up to and passes the other fellow, without even a glance of recognition. A careful study clearly shows these two are not travelling together. The person(s) that "discovered" Shelley and Lovelady in the film would have seen this, too, and that is why I distrust the origin of this "discovery". If you will recall, the "discovery" took place at Duncan MacRae's forum; a veritable hotbed of disinformation. Plus, none of the accounts given by Shelley and Lovelady can possibly put them anywhere near this position, timing-wise. Even in Shelley's first day statement, he claims to have strolled across to the concrete island, where he engaged in conversation with Gloria Calvery before heading BACK into the front entrance of the TSBD, and NOT down to the rail yard as he later lied about in his WC testimony. Sorry, Thomas, but, Shelley and Lovelady strolling down the Elm St. extension is just another fabrication from the WC apologists; designed to distract us from any serious research that might lead us closer to the truth. Edited August 29, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 Perhaps I am not making clear enough the impossibility of that being Shelley and Lovelady seen strolling down the Elm St. extension. You see, it's all a matter of timing. We only have 20 seconds to work with here, as that is the amount of time Baker took, from the sound of the last shot until he arrived at the entrance to the TSBD. In both his first day statement and his WC testimony, Shelley told us that, somewhere in this 20 seconds, he and Lovelady spoke with Gloria Calvery, who had run back up Elm St. from a point east of the Stemmons Freeway sign. Somehow, in the space of twenty seconds, Gloria Calvery has to witness the last shot, run up the street (either to the concrete island or the TSBD steps - take your pick of Shelley fairy tales), stop and have a conversation about the assassination with S & L, and then S & L have to be 25 steps down the Elm St. extension in order to look back to see Baker and Truly entering the TSBD. Before anyone comes up with an explanation as to how all of this could have happened in 20 seconds, remember that the theme of this thread is questioning if Gloria Calvery had enough time to even catch up to Baker, let alone all of the other things happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted August 29, 2015 Author Share Posted August 29, 2015 Does anyone here see how we have been the victims of 50 years of carefully contrived disinformation, or am I addressing the wrong crowd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Largey Posted August 31, 2015 Share Posted August 31, 2015 In previous threads, I believe serious doubt has been cast upon the identification of a woman loitering down near the Stemmons sign post-assassination as being Gloria Calvery. Linda turned up an interesting piece from FindaGrave concerning Gloria Calvery: Immediately following the assassination she ran back to the TSBD, following about 10-15 feet behind the sprinting DPD Officer, Marrion Baker, and they went up the front steps and into the building, as was partially captured on the Cook-Darnell Film and recounted in eyewitness testimony: http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/niteprowler147/bl3_zps34f39e84.gif In his Warren Commission testimony, a TSBD co-worker, Joe Molina, who had been positioned on the landing of the steps during the motorcade, stated he encountered a "horrified" Gloria Calvery in the entryway ~20-30 seconds after the final shot and she explained that she had seen the fatal head shot: Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary[sic]? Mr. MOLINA. Yes. Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up? Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl. Mr. BALL. What did she say? Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It would be interesting to know who wrote this piece, and whether or not that person has taken liberties with the truth. In the first paragraph, I would like to know whose eyewitness testimony placed Ms. Calvery 10-15 feet behind Baker as they approached the steps. As to the second paragraph, Joe Molina's WC testimony does not state that Ms. Calvery was in the entryway 20-30 seconds after the final shot. However, how far was it for Ms. Calvery to run up the Elm St. sidewalk to the steps? Could she have done it in just a few seconds longer than it took Baker to race his motorcycle to the sidewalk, park it and run up to the TSBD entrance? Robert, I think they've taken liberties but not diabolic ones. I suppose they may want it to be Calvery running into the building because it matches certain testimony and it's just nice to think at least one person said they saw something and oh look, there it is on film. Like Linda said elsewhere if it's Calvery she would have to have lost quite a bit of weight(a few months after getting hitched). No impossible but pretty unlikely. Also remember the motorcade was late, so those people could have been standing there for twenty minutes. Calvery may have stood on that spot with Hicks but just got bored and wandered off. IMHO Chris has the right idea to find the running girl first and for me, if she's not near that Chism group which she doesn't seem to be, then it's more likely she's running from something that happened after the headshot or simply running back to grab lunch. On one of your recent points. I myself have no problem with statements not matching, or matching the films, quite the opposite, it's exactly what I've come to expect and why would they match anyway? Who says they are supposed to Robert? Do you think it's possible that the overwhelming majority outside and opposite the TSBD completely ignored the sounds they later would claim where clearly gunshots? Even Baker himself? If that is possible and after looking at these better frames of Wiegman I believe it is highly probable, then "fifty years of BS" is putting it very mildly indeed. I do get your point about Baker, it's your opinion and I understand it but I don't believe he needs support for running into the building, he has Truly (and Darnell's footage to an extent) and quite a detailed account of what he saw after he turned onto Elm which is what I believe led him to investigate the building, not the birds, or the sounds but what he saw on the street in front of him, which is mostly verifiable on film. Marking him as a good cop and by no means a slow one. This is I think, the woman Chris pointed to in Z, still in position next to man and lamp post, or might be, similar white blouse and length of skirt perhaps. Thomas was looking at them in another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 "I suppose they may want it to be Calvery running into the building because it matches certain testimony and it's just nice to think at least one person said they saw something and oh look, there it is on film." It's not a matter of if Calvery ran to the TSBD, it's a matter of when. "Like Linda said elsewhere if it's Calvery she would have to have lost quite a bit of weight(a few months after getting hitched). No impossible but pretty unlikely." Look closely at Marrion Baker, in the same film, and then look at Baker in other photos and films. Baker was a pretty chunky guy, bordering on obese, yet, in the film, he looks quite thin as well, unless, of course, that is not Baker in the film. I believe we are seeing a trick of the camera lens here that made both of them appear to be thinner. "Also remember the motorcade was late, so those people could have been standing there for twenty minutes. Calvery may have stood on that spot with Hicks but just got bored and wandered off." Calvery was supposedly filmed by Zapruder as the motorcade went by. I fail to understand what you are saying here. "On one of your recent points. I myself have no problem with statements not matching, or matching the films, quite the opposite, it's exactly what I've come to expect and why would they match anyway? Who says they are supposed to Robert?" Not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying it is your experience that people generally lie when giving statements? "I do get your point about Baker, it's your opinion and I understand it but I don't believe he needs support for running into the building, he has Truly (and Darnell's footage to an extent) and quite a detailed account of what he saw after he turned onto Elm which is what I believe led him to investigate the building, not the birds, or the sounds but what he saw on the street in front of him, which is mostly verifiable on film. Marking him as a good cop and by no means a slow one." Once again, it is not a matter of if Baker entered the TSBD, it is a matter of when he entered the TSBD. To have entered the TSBD when he claimed he did, he must have been invisible, as witnesses recalled seeing Truly enter, but not a uniformed and helmeted motorcycle cop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) In previous threads, I believe serious doubt has been cast upon the identification of a woman loitering down near the Stemmons sign post-assassination as being Gloria Calvery. Linda turned up an interesting piece from FindaGrave concerning Gloria Calvery: Immediately following the assassination she ran back to the TSBD, following about 10-15 feet behind the sprinting DPD Officer, Marrion Baker, and they went up the front steps and into the building, as was partially captured on the Cook-Darnell Film and recounted in eyewitness testimony: http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/niteprowler147/bl3_zps34f39e84.gif In his Warren Commission testimony, a TSBD co-worker, Joe Molina, who had been positioned on the landing of the steps during the motorcade, stated he encountered a "horrified" Gloria Calvery in the entryway ~20-30 seconds after the final shot and she explained that she had seen the fatal head shot: Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary[sic]? Mr. MOLINA. Yes. Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up? Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl. Mr. BALL. What did she say? Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It would be interesting to know who wrote this piece, and whether or not that person has taken liberties with the truth. In the first paragraph, I would like to know whose eyewitness testimony placed Ms. Calvery 10-15 feet behind Baker as they approached the steps. As to the second paragraph, Joe Molina's WC testimony does not state that Ms. Calvery was in the entryway 20-30 seconds after the final shot. However, how far was it for Ms. Calvery to run up the Elm St. sidewalk to the steps? Could she have done it in just a few seconds longer than it took Baker to race his motorcycle to the sidewalk, park it and run up to the TSBD entrance? Robert, I think they've taken liberties but not diabolic ones. I suppose they may want it to be Calvery running into the building because it matches certain testimony and it's just nice to think at least one person said they saw something and oh look, there it is on film. Like Linda said elsewhere if it's Calvery she would have to have lost quite a bit of weight(a few months after getting hitched). No impossible but pretty unlikely. Also remember the motorcade was late, so those people could have been standing there for twenty minutes. Calvery may have stood on that spot with Hicks but just got bored and wandered off. IMHO Chris has the right idea to find the running girl first and for me, if she's not near that Chism group which she doesn't seem to be, then it's more likely she's running from something that happened after the headshot or simply running back to grab lunch. On one of your recent points. I myself have no problem with statements not matching, or matching the films, quite the opposite, it's exactly what I've come to expect and why would they match anyway? Who says they are supposed to Robert? Do you think it's possible that the overwhelming majority outside and opposite the TSBD completely ignored the sounds they later would claim where clearly gunshots? Even Baker himself? If that is possible and after looking at these better frames of Wiegman I believe it is highly probable, then "fifty years of BS" is putting it very mildly indeed. I do get your point about Baker, it's your opinion and I understand it but I don't believe he needs support for running into the building, he has Truly (and Darnell's footage to an extent) and quite a detailed account of what he saw after he turned onto Elm which is what I believe led him to investigate the building, not the birds, or the sounds but what he saw on the street in front of him, which is mostly verifiable on film. Marking him as a good cop and by no means a slow one. This is I think, the woman Chris pointed to in Z, still in position next to man and lamp post, or might be, similar white blouse and length of skirt perhaps. Thomas was looking at them in another thread. Clive, I think, given the timing of Baker and "Running Woman" in Couch / Darnell, "Running Woman" (Gloria Calvery as pointed out by Chris Davidson) has split the scene and is already running, running, running... And I think Chris' Gloria Calvery (by hardhat A. J. Millican) had a darker colored skirt on than does the woman above. For What It's Worth -- I want "Running Woman" to be a lithe Gloria Calvery (having lost some weight since her marriage), wherever she was standing during the motorcade. I want the two guys who are in close proximity to each other as they are walking / running down Elm Street to be Shelley and Lovelady (and I believe they are), proving that they prevaricated (in order to screw up Vicki Adams' story) when they said they stayed on the steps, twiddling their thumbs, for three minutes. I want the fast-running Calvery to yell out, "The President's been shot!" as she runs past Shelley and Lovelady, not far from the "island" on Elm Street Extension. I want Calvery to continue running down to the corner of Elm and Houston and for Baker to follow her down there and talk with her for five or ten minutes, in order to accommodate any theories that we might come up with regarding Oswald and the second floor lunchroom "encounter," etc. But that would prove Joe Molina to be a prevaricator then, wouldn't it. I forgot about that... I want the three women, standing by the Stemmons Freeway sign on Elm Street and previously "identified" as Calvery, Hicks, and Reed, to be finally determined to be other people entirely. Seriously. Not being ironic or sarcastic here, --Tommy Edited September 1, 2015 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted September 1, 2015 Author Share Posted September 1, 2015 Thomas How would anything regarding Gloria Calvery possibly make Joe Molina a xxxx (prevaricator)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted September 1, 2015 Share Posted September 1, 2015 (edited) Thomas How would anything regarding Gloria Calvery possibly make Joe Molina a xxxx (prevaricator)? Robert, Didn't Joe say Calvery came up to him on the steps, or just inside the TSBD, about 20 seconds after the last shot? I'm saying that maybe Calvery ran to the corner of Elm and Houston (and Baker followed her there), and if so, she couldn't have run up the steps and encountered Molina like that. I'm not saying that it's absolutely certain that she did run to the corner of Elm and Houston, but if she did, that would have been a good reason for Baker to run there, too, right? And they could have talked there for a couple of minutes. Where do you think Baker ran to, if not up the steps and into the TSBD? Why don't you lay out the whole scenario for us, Robert? Please? Thanks, --Tommy Edit: I see my mistake now. I conflated what Linda wrote at FindaGrave with what you said in response to that on this thread when you wrote "xxxxxxxxxxx not xxxxxxxxxxxx," and I'm missed the "not." My bad. By the way, here's a 1960 photo of one of the three female journalists Helen Woodward said she was standing with on Elm Street during the motorcade, Aurilia Alonzo (you gotta go back one page, to page 92): http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth61030/m1/95/ Edited January 28, 2016 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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