Did Gloria Calvery almost catch up to Marion Baker?

[Thomas Graves]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Sandy,

If you tell me what software to download and maybe how to use it.  As I mentioned in a PM, I'm using Google Chrome with Windows 10.

--  Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Tommy,

Bill has a good point regarding Running Woman IMO.

See, I suppose it's possible that Shelley and Lovelady were both instructed to say they waited 3 minutes for Gloria Calvery in order to delay their entry at the west door even longer than necessary, to make damn sure Victoria Adams.is discredited.

Running Woman, a.k.a. Gloria Calvery passes by the two on Elm extension. They don't really stop and talk. (According to what we see on the stabilized film.) But she could have told them as they pass by that the president had been shot. She was walking, not running, as they passed by each other.

So when Shelley and Lovelady testified before the WC, they tell two lies. 1) That they waited for Calvery before they left the steps; and 2) they met Calvery at the steps. The two lies go hand-in-hand.

That seems reasonable to me.

But then who is the Lovelady-looking-guy remaining on the steps? (I wish he wasn't there... life would be so much easier.)

Sandy,

I remember saying something like that in a thread that Bob Prudhomme and I were arguing on about a year ago.

--  Tommy

[Alistair Briggs]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Alistair Briggs thinks that the 3 minutes waiting for Calvery and Baker is untenable.

*Point of clarification - I don't think it's untenable. I think it is a possibility, one that I haven't yet been convinced on.

That is all...

 

[Ray Mitcham]

3 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

If you tell me what software to download and maybe how to use it.  As I mentioned in a PM, I'm using Google Chrome with Windows 10.

--  Tommy

Try this by Robin Unger, Tommy.

 

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,5650.0.html

[Thomas Graves]

7 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Try this by Robin Unger, Tommy.

 

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,5650.0.html

Thanks Ray

--  Tommy

[Bill Miller]

15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Running Woman, a.k.a. Gloria Calvery passes by the two on Elm extension. They don't really stop and talk. (According to what we see on the stabilized film.) But she could have told them as they pass by that the president had been shot. She was walking, not running, as they passed by each other.

Have you ever been on the extension in front of the stairs?   Someone can be coming towards you crying and saying the President was shot and just as they are almost up to you there is time to ask if they are sure ... to which they immediately respond they saw the blood.

Lovelady

Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot. (This statement could support the film)

Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.  (That response is supported by the film)

Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. (Started for the Island after meeting Calvery) We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.

Mr. BALL - By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15. maybe 25. steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.   (That response is supported by the film)

 

Shelley

Mr. BALL - What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound:?
Mr. SHELLEY - Sounded like it came from the west.
Mr. BALL - It sounded like it came from the west?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Then what happened?
Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.  (Again this fits with the Darnell Film because when the running woman moves on after a slight pause when passing Shelley and Lovelady ... the two men do appear to move towards the Island.)
Mr. BALL - Across the street, you mean directly south?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there?
Mr. BALL - Yes.

Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.  (From the Island the two men looked back and saw Truly and Baker)
Mr. BALL - And Truly?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.

 

 

15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

So when Shelley and Lovelady testified before the WC, they tell two lies. 1) That they waited for Calvery before they left the steps; and 2) they met Calvery at the steps. The two lies go hand-in-hand.

 

Point:  Which is the lie - meeting Calvery and moving to the Island within 15 to 25 steps in time to look back and see Truly and Baker about to enter the building before going to the RR Yard ................... or is the lie when it was said they had left the Island and gone to the RR Yard before taking their sweet time heading back to go into the TSBD to then see Calvery, and then witness Truly and Baker enter the front of the TSBD???

I say they got confused on the 3 - 4 minute timing for several times they said they met Calvery before going to the Island - and saw Truly and Baker before leaving the Island to head to the RR Yard.

[Sandy Larsen]

21 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

If you tell me what software to download and maybe how to use it.  As I mentioned in a PM, I'm using Google Chrome with Windows 10.

--  Tommy

I'd love to tell you, Tommy. But, you see, I'm not a graphics artist and know virtually nothing about what software to use. I spent a huge amount of time figuring out how and making my animated gifs using online tools. A lot of trial and error. I have a gif viewer that allows me to do simple things with animated gifs. Had I realized that it doesn't allow extraction of frames (in spite of the fact that it does allow insertion), I would have kept a copy of the individual frames before assembling them into gifs.

I'll try to find some time to look for an online tool that allows me to extract frames. So that I can show what I can see.

This would probably be  trivial thing for Robin Unger to do. But I'm not in a position to ask a favor of him.

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I'd love to tell you, Tommy. But, you see, I'm not a graphics artist and know virtually nothing about what software to use. I spent a huge amount of time figuring out how and making my animated gifs using online tools. A lot of trial and error. I have a gif viewer that allows me to do simple things with animated gifs. Had I realized that it doesn't allow extraction of frames (in spite of the fact that it does allow insertion), I would have kept a copy of the individual frames before assembling them into gifs.

I'll try to find some time to look for an online tool that allows me to extract frames. So that I can show what I can see.

This would probably be  trivial thing for Robin Unger to do. But I'm not in a position to ask a favor of him.

See Ray's post.

[Sandy Larsen]

I just re-read Shelley's and Lovelady's first-day affidavits and their WC testimonies while keeping in mind what we see of the two guys and running woman on the videos.

I found everything Shelley and Lovelady said to be quite consistent (with one exception... see the asterisk below). And I found what they said to be inconsistent with the videos. (Though much of that can be explained... read on)

Bill says that memories can change. But, going by that statement, we should see Lovelady's and Shelley's memories changing in different directions, not the same.

Thomas says that witnesses can be instructed what to say. That made sense to me, and going on that basis the content of the video, with Running Woman being identified as Gloria Calvery, looked very tempting and seemed reasonable to me.

But after re-reading the testimonies, I am left wondering why both Shelley and Lovelady would alter more of their stories than they had to to accomplish the goal. (The goal presumably being to extend the time period from when the shots were heard to when they enter the west door of the TSBD. So that Victoria Adams could be discredited.)

Here is what they changed in their testimonies, assuming that they are the guys we see in the videos:

1. They met Gloria Calvery at the steps (or very near there). Not after they had walked far down the extension, as the video shows.
2. They left the steps (or very near there) after encountering Calvery. Not before, as the video shows.
3. Once leaving the steps, the first thing they did was cross the extension to the concrete island, right where the traffic light is and where it splits Elm Street from Elm Street extension. But in the film they appear to cross the street toward the park (not the concrete island with a street light) after walking down the extension a ways.

I can understand changes #1 and #2. The late arrival of Gloria Calvery (late because it took her a while to get back to the steps, according to Shelley) and their subsequent departure from the steps, guarantees a late arrival through the west door for Victoria Adams to reportedly witness.

But why would they change point #3? Doing so seems wholly unnecessary. Also, it makes an identification of the two guys being Shelley and Lovelady being less likely.

This, and the alleged Lovelady who remains on the steps, has me again thinking that the two guys walking down the extension might not be Shelley and Lovelady.

EDIT:

I almost forgot this. The one contradiction I found is that, in his first-day affidavit, Shelley said he encountered Gloria Calvery over on the concrete island. In his WC testimony he said he encountered her at the steps. That's the reason in what I wrote above I said that Shelley encountered Calvery near the steps. (I lumped Lovelady into that category too. But it's possible that Shelley had wondered over near the island, encountered Calvery there, then Calvery went over to the steps and encountered Lovelady there as he walked over to where Shelley was. Or something like that.)

Edited February 8, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

49 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

See Ray's post.

Okay, I might use that software.

[Bill Miller]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Here is what they changed in their testimonies, assuming that they are the guys we see in the videos:

1. They met Gloria Calvery at the steps (or very near there). Not after they had walked far down the extension, as the video shows.

This point was made by both men when talking about the sequence of events.

      2. They left the steps (or very near there) after encountering Calvery. Not before, as the video shows.

I suspect they saw Calvery coming from the shooting and crying - so they proceeded to leave the steps and walk towards her.

      3. Once leaving the steps, the first thing they did was cross the extension to the concrete island, right where the traffic light is and where it splits Elm Street from Elm Street extension. But in the film they appear to cross the street toward the park (not the concrete island with a street light) after walking down the extension a ways.

Shelley was asked if they went straight across the street and he replied that they want a little bit to the right.

When looking at an image that isn't a skew - the tree where Shelley and Lovelady entered the Island isn't much of a walk down the street. It is the movie film that gives the impression that these men covered a much larger distance.

 

 

[Thomas Graves]

On 8/26/2015 at 10:42 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Well, Robert.

How were my questions totally irrelevant and misleading? Misleading?

The apparently dark-complected woman (face in shade?) identified by many / most researchers as Gloria Jean Calvery (standing with those two other women down by the Stemmons Freeway sign on Elm Street) was caught on film a few seconds after the assassination walking calmly with those two other women up the sidewalk on Elm Srteet in the general direction of the TSBD. So if she was walking, I think it's safe to say she wasn't running. And she's approaching the TSBD from a completely different direction than the woman running in Couch / Darnell. Also, as you well know, the clothes this Gloria Jean Calvery (the apparently dark complected woman) was wearing were different from the clothes the running woman was wearing. So that's why the running woman couldn't be Gloria Jean Calvery, IMHFO.

I know from previous posts that you doubt that the apparently dark-complected woman was Gloria Jean Calvery. Have you changed your mind?

Or conversely, do you think the running woman in Couch / Darnell was Calvery and that Calvery simply wasn't watching the motorcade where she said she was watching it, and with whom she said she was watching it?

What's your current position on all this if you don't mind my asking.

--Tommy

PS I do think the apparently dark-complected woman down by the Stemmons sign could have walked up the Elm Street sidewalk to the TSBD in 30-40 seconds, and encountered Joe Molina there roughly in the time frame he mentioned. What do you think, Robert?

Where do you think the real Gloria Jean Calvery was standing during the motorcade? If you don't think the apparently dark-complected woman was Calvery, who do you think the apparently dark-complected woman was?

An unknown or unaccounted-for friend or co-worker of Carol Reed and Karan Hicks?

 

 

3/22/18  Edit: 

I now believe that the dark-complected woman "by the Stemmons Sign" was self-described native American Stella Mae Jacob, that the tall black-blouse-and-black-headscarf-wearing woman standing directly to the left of John Templin in the Z-Film was Gloria Calvery,  and that the "Running Woman" on Elm Street Extension in Couch-Darnell was Peggy Burney.

 

--  TG

 

edited and bumped

Edited March 23, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 9/2/2015 at 12:03 PM, Clive Largey said:

  .....

  .....

 

Assuming that the two guys walking fast from right to left (about 30 seconds after the assassination in this Darnell clip) are William Shelley and Billy Lovelady, is it safe to say that the one wearing a suit (Shelley) is crossing Elm Street Extension?

If so, is the other guy (Lovelady) doing the same, or is he still walking/running in the direction of the railway yards?

Thanks.

 

--  TG

[Clive Largey]

I think they are following the Officer Tommy, Couch shows him crossing the street IMHO, he seems to slither down around a vehicle parked on the southern side of the extension which his two followers are now approaching(the modern image posted by Bill shows a truck parked beside the tree in a very similar position). If it's Smith then I don't think anyone doubts he went to the RR Yards just probably not directly toward it like these clips seem to suggest. Those frames above are the very last of Darnell's TSBD footage so it's just a continuation of what Couch caught, and a shame it's not as clear but those I believe are from what Robin shared with us and the best available.

Calvery or anyone running from the sidewalk could have already "told" this cop and anyone near him exactly where to go, did not think that was possible until the Zwoman was found on the steps but she and her friend must surely be out breath after a run like that.

 

[Guest]

Looking at Frazier's WC testimony, one thing becomes very clear. 

He heard Calvery minutes (!) after the deed.

 

Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there? 
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there? 
Mr. BALL - A police officer. 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there. 
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it. 
Mr. BALL - Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy. 
Mr. BALL - Do you know who it was who told you that? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Sir? 
Mr. BALL - Do you know who the girl was who told you that? 
Mr. FRAZIER - She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people. 
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 
Mr. BALL - And police officers came in there? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were several. 
Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the first floor? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, stayed on the first floor there for a few minutes and I hadn't eaten my lunch so I had my lunch down there in the basement and I went down there to get my lunch and eat it and I walked back up on the first floor there. 
Mr. BALL - When you came back into the Building, you came in the front door, didn't you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right 
Mr. BALL - Did you go down to the basement immediately or did you stand around on the first floor? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood around for several minutes there, you know, and then, you know, eventually the ones who hadn't eaten their lunch, some of them had taken their lunch outside. 

 

Recently we have spoken with Frazier and he told us that Calvery came by after the police officer(s) went in!

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

That is way after Darnell.

Now let's look at Molina's WC testimony and the context of it.

Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building? 
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in. 
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing? 
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door. 
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me. 
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step. 
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go 
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah. 
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes. 
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots? 
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards. 
Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before 
you saw Truly go in? 
Mr. MOLINA. No.   BOOM!!!! We know where Truly is in Darnell.
Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes. 
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up? 
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl. Again, how can anyone reconcile this with Molina standing there in Darnell on the landing!
Mr. BALL. What did she say? 
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.

Way after Darnell as well.

Graves and Dingo Doyle will be foaming at their mouths right now. Sandy Larsen how can Gloria Calvery be at the bottom of the steps with the above painting a complete different picture? 

Edited November 18, 2018 by Bart Kamp