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Did Gloria Calvery almost catch up to Marion Baker?


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I agree with your Truly identification.

As for Joe Molina

Molina-Composite

Molina-Composite.jpg

It is my opinion that Molina is the person with the two arms up shielding his eyes from the sun, he is seen standing directly behind Otis Williams in Altgens 6 Otis Williams has his right arm up shielding his eyes from the sun.

Shelley can be seen in a black suit and tie.

Molina was 5' 7 1/2 "

160lb, 40 years old and balding.

mffpdf.jpg
 

 

Edited by Robin Unger
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10 hours ago, Bart Kamp said:

Looking at Frazier's WC testimony, one thing becomes very clear. 

He heard Calvery minutes (!) after the deed.

 

Mr. BALL - Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while you were there? 
Mr. FRAZIER - You mean somebody other that didn't work there? 
Mr. BALL - A police officer. 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we stared back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there. 
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 
Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it. 
Mr. BALL - Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy. 
Mr. BALL - Do you know who it was who told you that? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Sir? 
Mr. BALL - Do you know who the girl was who told you that? 
Mr. FRAZIER - She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people. 
Mr. BALL - Then you went back into the Building, did you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right. 
Mr. BALL - And police officers came in there? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were several. 
Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the first floor? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, stayed on the first floor there for a few minutes and I hadn't eaten my lunch so I had my lunch down there in the basement and I went down there to get my lunch and eat it and I walked back up on the first floor there. 
Mr. BALL - When you came back into the Building, you came in the front door, didn't you? 
Mr. FRAZIER - Right 
Mr. BALL - Did you go down to the basement immediately or did you stand around on the first floor? 
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; I stood around for several minutes there, you know, and then, you know, eventually the ones who hadn't eaten their lunch, some of them had taken their lunch outside. 

 

Recently we have spoken with Frazier and he told us that Calvery came by after the police officer(s) went in!

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

That is way after Darnell.

Now let's look at Molina's WC testimony and the context of it.


Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building? 
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in. 
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing? 
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door. 
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me. 
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step. 
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go 
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah. 
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes. 
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots? 
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards. 
Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before 
you saw Truly go in? 
Mr. MOLINA. No.   BOOM!!!! We know where Truly is in Darnell.
Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes. 
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up? 
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl. Again, how can anyone reconcile this with Molina standing there in Darnell on the landing!
Mr. BALL. What did she say? 
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.

 

Graves and Dingo Doyle will be foaming at their mouths right now. Sandy Larsen how can Gloria Calvery be at the bottom of the steps with the above painting a complete different picture? 

 

Here is what I gather from Frazier's and Molina's testimonies, in chronological order:

  1. Frazier  and Molina were standing at the top of the TSBD steps at the time of the shooting.
  2. 20 to 30 seconds after the shots,  Truly went inside the TSBD.
  3. Afterward, a girl who had earlier walked away from the steps -- to get a better view of the motorcade -- returned to the steps with someone else and told several people that Kennedy had been shot.  Let's assume that these two people were Gloria Calvery and her female companion, with whom Molina would later speak inside the TSBD lobby.
  4. Frazier heard what Gloria Calvery and her companion told the others, and shortly thereafter went back inside the TSBD.
  5. Molina went into the TSBD lobby.
  6. Gloria Calvery and her female companion went into the TSBD lobby and spoke with Molina there about the shooting.
  7. Several minutes later the Police arrived and entered the TSBD.

(Incidentally, the above timeline of events agrees with my contentions regarding Gloria Calvery, Billy Lovelady, and Bill Shelley.)

But Bart adds this statement: "Recently we have spoken with Frazier and he told us that Calvery came by after the police officer(s) went in!"  This 50-year-old memory contradicts my timeline above, because my timeline shows Calvery arriving at #3, whereas according to Bart, Frazier has her arriving at #8... after the police arrived several minutes later.

If what Frazier reportedly said is true, it means that the girl and her companion in #3 and #4 are not the same as Calvery and her companion in #6. And it means that the following took place: Shortly after the shooting, some girl and her companion told the people on the steps that Kennedy had been shot; then the people went inside; several minutes later the police arrived; and AFTER ALL THAT, Gloria Calvery and her companion finally arrived, went inside, and told everybody what they already knew by then... that Kennedy had been shot. Molina must have been the only one left in the dark, given that his  response was, "Are you sure?" Rather than, "Yes, we've already heard. That's why the police are here."

I'm afraid that Bart is relying too much on fifty-year-old memories and not enough on first-day statements.

 

BTW, if Molina's testimony is correct about Truly going into the TSBD 20 to 30 seconds after the shooting, and before anybody (e.g. Gloria Calvery) had arrived announcing that Kennedy had been shot, then the identification of Truly in Darnell must be wrong. Because that man in Darnell is clearly not inside, or even on his way inside, the TSBD at that time. And Gloria Calvery and her companion clearly have arrived at the TSBD steps, as shown here with them talking to Billy Lovelady:
 

calvery_talking_to_lovelady.jpg.a134a609


Truly is already inside at this time, according to Molina.

 

 

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I think there needs to be a clarification at this point in this thread.  Which film are people talking about here?  The Cook-Darnell film or the Darnell gif?  Or, are we really looking at the Malcom Couch film?  I say the Malcom Couch film.

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In previous threads, I believe serious doubt has been cast upon the identification of a woman loitering down near the Stemmons sign post-assassination as being Gloria Calvery.

Linda turned up an interesting piece from FindaGrave concerning Gloria Calvery:

Immediately following the assassination she ran back to the TSBD, following about 10-15 feet behind the sprinting DPD Officer, Marrion Baker, and they went up the front steps and into the building, as was partially captured on the Cook-Darnell Film and recounted in eyewitness testimony:
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i286/niteprowler147/bl3_zps34f39e84.gif

This is the so-called Cook-Darnell film gif.  It has been slowed down to 4 seconds per frame to give one more time to look at each image and compare it to the Malcom Couch film.

alleged-cook-darnell-film-a.gif

This is the same imagery as the Malcom Couch film.  It has been cropped and selected frames have been used.  This gives the appearance of the Running Woman who isn’t running but walking.  This Walking Woman can be seen in the post by Robin Unger.


 

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The Darnell gif that Unger has posted is actually the Malcom Couch film.  The imagery is the same.

But, that is not the real problem with this post.

 

Edited by John Butler
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Another big problem for this thread, is the motorcycle policemen shown running, toward the TSBD, really Marion Baker?  Or, is it another motorcycle policeman such as Bobby Hargis of the Presidential Motorcycles, or, DPD J. B. Garrick of the Advance Motorcycles.  TA Hutson testified that he saw Garrick at the door of the TSBD, after the shooting.  S. G. Bellah is said to have returned to the TSBD but, he would easily be identified by Sgt.’s stripes.  Were there any others?

Marion Baker was a member of the 2 Forward Mid Motorcycles.  The other Officer was H. B. Mclain.  These motorcycle policemen were in the 16th motorcade position.  While on Houston street Baker said he heard a shot and saw pigeons flying from the roof of the TSBD.  He left his motorcade position and went directly to the TSBD and entered in time to meet Oswald in the 2nd floor break room in 90 seconds from the time he left his motoracade position.  If Baker is on the 2nd floor in the break room with Oswald than it is likely he can’t be outside when Weigman and Couch come by in Camera Car #1 and Camera Car #3 and make their films.

Marion Baker’s position in the motorcade was the 16th position.  He left that position and the people he was supposed to protect to go off on his own.  To Me, this has always been suspicious behavior.  Getting to the 2nd floor break room in 90 seconds is also suspicious.  Did he have another motive for breaking formation and leaving his section of the motorcade unguarded?  

The presidential motorcade passed through Dealey Plaza in segments.  The visual record confirms this if you look closely.  There was a time interval between each segment.  What that interval was is not known but, can be conjectured to be as many as 3 or more minutes for the 1st and 2nd segments to pass the TSBD and leave the plaza via passing under the Triple Underpass.  The Third segment contained people who filmed a few minutes after the assassination.  It has been indicated that the motorcade stretched for ½ mile in length.

1st segment:

1                      Car                  Advance Car (Did not enter Dealey Plaza- AMIPA film)

2                      Car                  Pilot Car

3                      Motorcycle     Advance

4                      Motorcycle     Lead

5                      Car                  Lead Car

6                      Car                  Presidential Limousine

7                      Motorcycle     Presidential Motorcycles

8                      Car                  Presidential SS Follow-up

9                      Car                  Vice Presidential Car

10                    Car                  VP SS Follow-up

 

2nd Segment:

11                    Car                  Mayor’s Car

12                    Car                  National Press Pool Car

 

3rd Segment:

13                    Car                  Camera Car #1 National Motion Pictures

14                    Car                  Camera Car #2 National Still Cameras

15                    Car                  Camera Car #3 Local Cameras

16                    Motorcycle     Forward Mid Motorcade Motorcycles

 

4th Segment and other Segments:

17                    Car                  Congressman’s Car #1

18                    Car                  Congressman’s Car #2

19                    Car                  Congressman’s Car #3

20                    Car                  VIP Car

21                    Motorcycle     Mid Motorcade Motorcycles

22                    Bus                  White House Press Bus #1

23                    Car                  Local Press Pool Car

24                    Bus                  White House Press Bus #2

25                    Motorcycle     Rear Mid Motorcade Motorcycles

26                    Car                  Extra Car #1

27                    Car                  Western Union Car

28                    Car                  White House Signal Corps

29                    Car                  Extra Car #2

30                    Bus                  Official Party Bus

31                    Car                  Rear Police Car

32                    Motorcycle     Rear Police Motorcycle

 

This is from the testimony of Mrs. Earle Cabell at the Warren Commission hearing of 7-13-64.  She was in the Mayor’s Car.  It confirms her part of the motorcade was stopped for a period of time.

“Mr. Hubert. You also mentioned that you were acutely aware of the smell of

gunpowder?

Mrs. Cabell. Yes.

Mr. Hubert. When was that relative to the shots? I mean how soon after?

Mrs. Cabell. I cannot say for sure, because as I told you, the motorcade was

stopped. And somewhere in there, Congressman Roberts said, “That is a

.30-06.” I didn’t know what a .30-06 was.”

This frame from the Couch film shows the Camera Cars #1 and #2 and DPD H. B. Mclain.  In front of the motorcycles the road is clear.  Earlier segments of the motorcade, the 1st and the 2nd Segments have cleared Dealey Plaza.  This indicates some time since the assassination. 

David Weigman was in Camera Car #1, Frank Cancellare was in Camera Car #2, and Malcom Couch was in Camera Car #3.

breaking-the-news-19-couch-film-a.jpg

These bits of evidence calls into question whether the Running Motorcycle Policeman was Marion Baker of not.  I say not.

Edited by John Butler
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As an example, these frames from the Darnell gif are the same as the Malcom Couch film.  They are crops from the Couch film.

Couch-Darnell-frames-same.jpg

and,

darnell-couch-frames-two.jpg

I don't see how these same frames can be in two different films.  Darnell and Couch were in the same camera car, Camera Car #3.  Even so, I don't see how they would have captured the exact same scenes.  But, of course for many of the folks on the forum that is possible because they want it to be possible.

Edited by John Butler
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6 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

This is Couch.

Couchslow.gif

Thank you Robin.  I've never seen these other than clips of them.  Interesting how Baker disappears behind the cowboy hat/man in it so instantly in the Darnell film. 

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On 11/19/2018 at 6:20 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Here is what I gather from Frazier's and Molina's testimonies, in chronological order:

  1. Frazier  and Molina were standing at the top of the TSBD steps at the time of the shooting.
  2. 20 to 30 seconds after the shots,  Truly went inside the TSBD.
  3. Afterward, a girl who had earlier walked away from the steps -- to get a better view of the motorcade -- returned to the steps with someone else and told several people that Kennedy had been shot.  Let's assume that these two people were Gloria Calvery and her female companion, with whom Molina would later speak inside the TSBD lobby.
  4. Frazier heard what Gloria Calvery and her companion told the others, and shortly thereafter went back inside the TSBD.
  5. Molina went into the TSBD lobby.
  6. Gloria Calvery and her female companion went into the TSBD lobby and spoke with Molina there about the shooting.
  7. Several minutes later the Police arrived and entered the TSBD.

(Incidentally, the above timeline of events agrees with my contentions regarding Gloria Calvery, Billy Lovelady, and Bill Shelley.)

But Bart adds this statement: "Recently we have spoken with Frazier and he told us that Calvery came by after the police officer(s) went in!"  This 50-year-old memory contradicts my timeline above, because my timeline shows Calvery arriving at #3, whereas according to Bart, Frazier has her arriving at #8... after the police arrived several minutes later.

If what Frazier reportedly said is true, it means that the girl and her companion in #3 and #4 are not the same as Calvery and her companion in #6. And it means that the following took place: Shortly after the shooting, some girl and her companion told the people on the steps that Kennedy had been shot; then the people went inside; several minutes later the police arrived; and AFTER ALL THAT, Gloria Calvery and her companion finally arrived, went inside, and told everybody what they already knew by then... that Kennedy had been shot. Molina must have been the only one left in the dark, given that his  response was, "Are you sure?" Rather than, "Yes, we've already heard. That's why the police are here."

I'm afraid that Bart is relying too much on fifty-year-old memories and not enough on first-day statements.

 

BTW, if Molina's testimony is correct about Truly going into the TSBD 20 to 30 seconds after the shooting, and before anybody (e.g. Gloria Calvery) had arrived announcing that Kennedy had been shot, then the identification of Truly in Darnell must be wrong. Because that man in Darnell is clearly not inside, or even on his way inside, the TSBD at that time. And Gloria Calvery and her companion clearly have arrived at the TSBD steps, as shown here with them talking to Billy Lovelady:
 

calvery_talking_to_lovelady.jpg.a134a609


Truly is already inside at this time, according to Molina.

 

 

 

Sandy Larsen,

you are wrong, see below in bold.

 

  1. Frazier  and Molina were standing at the top of the TSBD steps at the time of the shooting.
  2. 20 to 30 seconds after the shots,  Truly went inside the TSBD.
  3. Afterward, a girl who had earlier walked away from the steps -- to get a better view of the motorcade -- returned to the steps with someone else and told several people that Kennedy had been shot.  Let's assume that these two people were Gloria Calvery and her female companion, with whom Molina would later speak inside the TSBD lobby. Calvery and her three pals Hicks, Reed and Westbrook left the building and stood between the Stemmons Freeway sign and the lamp post. 
  4. Frazier heard what Gloria Calvery and her companion told the others, and shortly thereafter went back inside the TSBD.
  5. Molina went into the TSBD lobby. 
  6. Gloria Calvery and her female companion went into the TSBD lobby and spoke with Molina there about the shooting.
  7. Several minutes later the Police arrived and entered the TSBD.

But Bart adds this statement: "Recently we have spoken with Frazier and he told us that Calvery came by after the police officer(s) went in!"  This 50-year-old memory contradicts my timeline above, because my timeline shows Calvery arriving at #3, whereas according to Bart, Frazier has her arriving at #8... after the police arrived several minutes later.

There is nothing wrong with the timeline above, but you are wrong for inserting Calvery 2x! She should not be at position 3 at all.

If what Frazier reportedly said is true, it means that the girl and her companion in #3 and #4 are not the same as Calvery and her companion in #6. And it means that the following took place: Shortly after the shooting, some girl and her companion told the people on the steps that Kennedy had been shot; then the people went inside; several minutes later the police arrived; and AFTER ALL THAT, Gloria Calvery and her companion finally arrived, went inside, and told everybody what they already knew by then... that Kennedy had been shot. Molina must have been the only one left in the dark, given that his  response was, "Are you sure?" Rather than, "Yes, we've already heard. That's why the police are here."

I don't care what Frazier says in all honesty, he is all over when it comes to his statements. In his HSCA interview he said Shelley and Lovelady had left the steps before the limo went on Elm! Only to be confronted with Altgens 6 shortly after. And closer checking of Frazier's claim is that he meant Baker, yet in his WC testimony he never saw him go in. So if anyone is all over the place with his statements it is Frazier. And I should have clarified that in my original post. But even so it males no difference besides the fact that Calvery is nowhere near on those steps in Darnell.

I'm afraid that Bart is relying too much on fifty-year-old memories and not enough on first-day statements.

Ha ha ha, you must be joking there. If anyone disregards first day statements it is you.

Shelley's DPD and Lovelady FBI first day statements speak volumes, with regards them leaving immediately and speaking to Calvery across away from those steps. Something Doyle and Graves ignore as well.

BTW, if Molina's testimony is correct about Truly going into the TSBD 20 to 30 seconds after the shooting, and before anybody (e.g. Gloria Calvery) had arrived announcing that Kennedy had been shot, then the identification of Truly in Darnell must be wrong. Because that man in Darnell is clearly not inside, or even on his way inside, the TSBD at that time. And Gloria Calvery and her companion clearly have arrived at the TSBD steps, as shown here with them talking to Billy Lovelady:

Laughable assertion and speculation Sandy, if if if.

So Truly is not Truly just because Doyle's, Graves' and your pet theory is blown to smithereens. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Bart Kamp
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