Did Gloria Calvery almost catch up to Marion Baker?

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

As an aside to this discussion....

In the smaller, inserted GIF, you can see what looks like cop running and drawing his gun. He is running across the garage/entryway.

i just wanted to point that out.

We've known that for a long time.

--  Tommy

[Michael Clark]

4 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

We've known that for a long time.

--  Tommy

I figured. Just checking....

[Thomas Graves]

3 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

I figured. Just checking....

LOL

[Thomas Graves]

On 2/5/2017 at 8:10 AM, Bill Miller said:

^^

I believe that both men had been angling across the street to a point where they cut between the parked cars and onto the Island just as they testified. The lighter clothing of Lovelady and the motion blur makes it difficult to track, but everything seen here has been recorded as it happened and isn't subject to stress or confusion. I had said early on that people in stressed situations will often lose track of time and make errors over the order of events when trying to piece them together, which in this case has given birth to some really outlandish conspiracy claims about lies and deception. Let us also keep in mind that once these men sat foot on the Island that they heard someone yell which caused them to look back towards the TSBD which in turn allowed them to see Truly and Baker about to enter the doorway. This too fits the timing of what is seen in this clip despite the camera not staying on the stairs long enough to watch it happen.

I think that's a good interpretation of the "Shelley" and "Lovelady" movements in Couch - Darnell.

What's troubling is that it conflicts so dramatically with the statements / testimonies they gave.

--  Tommy

[Bill Miller]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

I think that's a good interpretation of the "Shelley" and "Lovelady" movements in Couch - Darnell.

What's troubling is that it conflicts so dramatically with the statements / testimonies they gave.

--  Tommy

" I had said early on that people in stressed situations will often lose track of time and make errors over the order of events when trying to piece them together "

For the most part - the film supports what they had said minus a couple of minor timing errors which is to be expected.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Bill Miller

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

" I had said early on that people in stressed situations will often lose track of time and make errors over the order of events when trying to piece them together "

For the most part - the film supports what they had said minus a couple of minor timing errors which is to be expected.

 

"Minor" ???  (but, strangely, exactly the same for Shelley and Lovelady).

You call three minutes versus 30 seconds max "minor"?  If, in all the "confusion and excitement" of the moment, one of them was so grossly off on the timing, how then do we explain the fact that both of them were "confused" to the exact same degree, except to posit that they colluded on the answers, or were told what to say?

LOL

--  Tommy

 

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

"Minor" ???  (but, strangely, exactly the same for Shelley and Lovelady).

You call three minutes versus 30 seconds max "minor"?  If, in all the "confusion and excitement" of the moment, one of them was so grossly off on the timing, how then do we explain the fact that both of them were "confused" to the exact same degree, except to posit that they colluded on the answers, or were told what to say?

LOL

--  Tommy

 

 

Exactly my points, Tommy.

I think people are accepting the two men as Shelley and Lovelady too easily. And making excuses for anything that contradicts what they believe.

Consider this... how soon after the shooting would Shelley and Lovelady have had to exit the stairway to get to where we see them in the videos. Very shortly after. 15 seconds? What happened to the time waiting for Calvery?

And who is that guy still on the steps, the one who looks like Lovelady and is not far from where we last saw Lovelady standing?

(BTW, to get a good look at the guy you really have to look at a video and not just a still.)

Granted, the film is grainy and out of focus, and all we see is his head and a little upper body. And granted, I haven't been able to find Shelley on the steps after the shooting.

[Bill Miller]

3 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

"Minor" ???  (but, strangely, exactly the same for Shelley and Lovelady).

You call three minutes versus 30 seconds max "minor"?  If, in all the "confusion and excitement" of the moment, one of them was so grossly off on the timing, how then do we explain the fact that both of them were "confused" to the exact same degree, except to posit that they colluded on the answers, or were told what to say?

LOL

--  Tommy

 

 

That is exactly what I have said with the exception that I also mentioned these men both said they met Calvery before making it to the Island. The mix up came when they spoke of their total time touring the Plaza after the shots were fired. Part of that I blame for the interviewer jumping all over the place with his questions. Regardless - both witnesses gave the order of events (2x I believe) before the latter 3 to 4 minute remark was made.

[Thomas Graves]

11 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Exactly my points, Tommy.

I think people are accepting the two men as Shelley and Lovelady too easily. And making excuses for anything that contradicts what they believe.

Consider this... how soon after the shooting would Shelley and Lovelady have had to exit the stairway to get to where we see them in the videos. Very shortly after. 15 seconds? What happened to the time waiting for Calvery?

And who is that guy still on the steps, the one who looks like Lovelady and is not far from where we last saw Lovelady standing?

(BTW, to get a good look at the guy you really have to look at a video and not just a still.)

Granted, the film is grainy and out of focus, and all we see is his head and a little upper body. And granted, I haven't been able to find Shelley on the steps after the shooting.

 

Dear Sandy,

I for one "accept" that the two men in Couch - Darnell are Shelley and Lovelady.

Given that, I believe that they either colluded in their statements / testimony or were told what to say.
 

I'm confused on your position on all of this.

Do you believe Shelley and Lovelady told the truth, but were a little confused about what they did and when they did it?

--  Tommy

P.S.  How do you know that the person, below Prayer Man on the steps, is a guy?  How do you know it isn't a woman, wearing a headscarf, walking up the steps?  Did Robin Unger ever blow that up for you?

Edited February 7, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

14 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

That is exactly what I have said with the exception that I also mentioned these men both said they met Calvery before making it to the Island. The mix up came when they spoke of their total time touring the Plaza after the shots were fired. Part of that I blame for the interviewer jumping all over the place with his questions. Regardless - both witnesses gave the order of events (2x I believe) before the latter 3 to 4 minute remark was made.

 

How soon after the final shot do you think they met Calvary?  20 seconds? 30?  45?  Two minutes?

--  Tommy

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Dear Sandy,

I for one "accept" that the two men in Couch - Darnell are Shelley and Lovelady.

Oh, okay. Sorry I confused your position. Well at least your not making excuses for the contradictions.

Given that, I believe that they either colluded in their statements / testimony or were told what to say.

I considered that but couldn't figure out a reason why they would do that. I could see why someone would want them to arrive late at the west door (to discredit Victoria Adams), but the time they said they spent on the island, then walking down the road, and then at the RR yard was long enough.

One day it occurred to me that they might be telling the truth. I even had a thread going on that.

I'm confused on your position on all of this.

Do you believe Shelley and Lovelady told the truth, but were a little confused about what they did and when they did it?

What I believe now is that Shelley and Lovelady basically told the truth. That it took Calvery about 3 minutes to arrive at the steps, after which they left. (It's likely that they -- or at least Shelley -- began to leave a little before Calvery arrived, and that they sort of crossed paths in front of the TSBD.) They crossed over to the island. Shelley glanced back across the street and saw Baker at the front of the TSBD. Then they walked down Elm St. extension. Lovelady looked back and saw Baker entering the TSBD. They went to the RR yard and was there for a minute or two. Then they walked back in at the West door. IIRC Shelley said he didn't see Victoria Adams. Lovelady blurted out that he might have but he wouldn't swear to it.

That was their WC testimony. I couldn't see anything wrong with it.

Alistair Briggs thinks that the 3 minutes waiting for Calvery and Baker is untenable. But that is because he cannot accept that Victoria Adams' WC testimony was altered. (She said it was.) Or that Truly lied. (Hey, Truly got the policeman to let Oswald out the building. And right after that he reported to Fritz on the 6th floor that Oswald had vanished! Truly was definitely involved in the plot! Probably. LOL) Or that there wasn't a 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter. (The purpose of the faked encounter was that it shifted Oswald's lunch to occur AFTER the shooting. Thus he was on the 1st floor AFTER the shooting, not DURING it! Voila!)

--  Tommy

P.S.  How do you know that the person, below Prayer Man on the steps, is a guy?  How do you know it isn't a woman, wearing a headscarf, walking up the steps?  Did Robin Unger ever blow that up for you?

No, it's not the back of a woman's head. I can see the guy's head and neck, and just barely his left ear. He is facing out from the building. I'm looking at him right now. He is in one of my animated gifs.

Problem is, I don't have the right software to disassemble my gif. (Okay, if I find the time I could find an online tool that will do it.) If I e-mail you the gif, can you extract a frame from it and then zoom in?

Reminder for me:
It is in file named "4b- Baker's Final Step (medium speed, large).gif"
Frame 23 out of 23
Other interesting frames:
23 - ear poking out
20 - side view of ear
03 - eyes?

 

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Bill Miller]

4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

How soon after the final shot do you think they met Calvary?  20 seconds? 30?  45?  Two minutes?

--  Tommy

I have said repeatedly that I believe the running woman is Calvery ....  thus how long that was after the final shot is a moot point.

[Sandy Larsen]

[deleted]

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Dear Sandy,

I for one "accept" that the two men in Couch - Darnell are Shelley and Lovelady.

Oh, okay. Sorry I confused your position. Well at least your not making excuses for the contradictions.

Given that, I believe that they either colluded in their statements / testimony or were told what to say.

I considered that but couldn't figure out a reason why they would do that. I could see why someone would want them to arrive late at the west door (to discredit Victoria Adams), but the time they said they spent on the island, then walking down the road, and then at the RR yard was long enough.

One day it occurred to me that they might be telling the truth. I even had a thread going on that.

I'm confused on your position on all of this.

Do you believe Shelley and Lovelady told the truth, but were a little confused about what they did and when they did it?

What I believe now is that Shelley and Lovelady basically told the truth. That it took Calvery about 3 minutes to arrive at the steps, after which they left. (It's likely that they -- or at least Shelley -- began to leave a little before Calvery arrived, and that they sort of crossed paths in front of the TSBD.) They crossed over to the island. Shelley glanced back across the street and saw Baker at the front of the TSBD. Then they walked down Elm St. extension. Lovelady looked back and saw Baker entering the TSBD. They went to the RR yard and was there for a minute or two. Then they walked back in at the West door. IIRC Shelley said he didn't see Victoria Adams. Lovelady blurted out that he might have but he wouldn't swear to it.

That was their WC testimony. I couldn't see anything wrong with it.

Alistair Briggs thinks that the 3 minutes waiting for Calvery and Baker is untenable. But that is because he cannot accept that Victoria Adams' WC testimony was altered. (She said it was.) Or that Truly lied. (Hey, Truly got the policeman to let Oswald out the building. And right after that he reported to Fritz on the 6th floor that Oswald had vanished! Truly was definitely involved in the plot! Probably. LOL) Or that there wasn't a 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter. (The purpose of the faked encounter was that it shifted Oswald's lunch to occur AFTER the shooting. Thus he was on the 1st floor AFTER the shooting, not DURING it! Voila!)

--  Tommy

P.S.  How do you know that the person, below Prayer Man on the steps, is a guy?  How do you know it isn't a woman, wearing a headscarf, walking up the steps?  Did Robin Unger ever blow that up for you?

No, it's not the back of a woman's head. I can see the guy's head and neck, and just barely his left ear. He is facing out from the building. I'm looking at him right now. He is in one of my animated gifs.

Problem is, I don't have the right software to disassemble my gif. (Okay, if I find the time I could find an online tool that will do it.) If I e-mail you the gif, can you extract a frame from it and then zoom in?

Reminder for me:
It is in file named "4b- Baker's Final Step (medium speed, large).gif"
Frame 23 out of 23
Other interesting frames:
23 - ear poking out
20 - side view of ear
03 - eyes?

 

 

Bump for Tommy.

 

 

Edited February 7, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

Tommy,

Bill has a good point regarding Running Woman IMO.

See, I suppose it's possible that Shelley and Lovelady were both instructed to say they waited 3 minutes for Gloria Calvery in order to delay their entry at the west door even longer than necessary, to make damn sure Victoria Adams.is discredited.

Running Woman, a.k.a. Gloria Calvery passes by the two on Elm extension. They don't really stop and talk. (According to what we see on the stabilized film.) But she could have told them as they pass by that the president had been shot. She was walking, not running, as they passed by each other.

So when Shelley and Lovelady testified before the WC, they tell two lies. 1) That they waited for Calvery before they left the steps; and 2) they met Calvery at the steps. The two lies go hand-in-hand.

That seems reasonable to me.

But then who is the Lovelady-looking-guy remaining on the steps? (I wish he wasn't there... life would be so much easier.)