Did Gloria Calvery almost catch up to Marion Baker?

[Robert Prudhomme]

"Shelley said in his affidavit that he encountered her on the "island" a few seconds after the assassination."

Once again, you have not done your research. Shelley does not say in his affidavit how long after the last shot he ran across to the concrete island. He also stated, in his affidavit, he had no idea where the shots came from.

Yes, for all we know, several minutes may have elapsed before he spoke with Gloria Calvery. He might then have proceeded down the Elm St. extension OR he might have gone back into the TSBD, just as he stated he did in his affidavit.

The biggest problem you have with believing Lovelady and Shelley can be seen walking to the rail yard in Darnell/Couch is it requires you to cherry pick information from their affidavits and WC testimonies, and completely ignore other evidence found in the same places. Or, you just make things up, such as Shelley stating he ran across to the concrete island a few seconds after the assassination.

[Thomas Graves]

"Shelley said in his affidavit that he encountered her on the "island" a few seconds after the assassination."

Once again, you have not done your research. Shelley does not say in his affidavit how long after the last shot he ran across to the concrete island. He also stated, in his affidavit, he had no idea where the shots came from.

Ancient history, Bobby. I said that several posts ago and I've already kinda "apologized" for making such a heinous mistake, but I also explained why it's reasonable to assume that that's what Shelley did -- by his use of the word "run" and the fact that he didn't mention anything else that he might have done or seen during the several minutes that you seem to think he spent on the steps after the shots. Regarding where the shots came from, I never said anything about that being in his affidavit. You may have inferred that I did, but I didn't. Regardless, I was right. He said he thought the shots had come from the west - in his WC testimony. BTW, why in the world would he tell the truth about that, but "lie" about walking (part way) down the Elm Street Extension? Didn't he know that Oswald was alleged to have been shooting from the sixth floor window?

Yes, for all we know, several minutes may have elapsed before he spoke with Gloria Calvery. He might then have proceeded down the Elm St. extension OR he might have gone back into the TSBD, just as he stated he did in his affidavit.

In his affidavit he said he went back into the TSBD after speaking with Calvery "on the corner of the park." You think he might have lied and gone on down Elm Street Extension, instead, after speaking with her? With or without Lovelady?

The biggest problem you have with believing Lovelady and Shelley can be seen walking to the rail yard in Darnell/Couch is it requires you to cherry pick information from their affidavits and WC testimonies, and completely ignore other evidence found in the same places. Or, you just make things up, such as Shelley stating he ran across to the concrete island a few seconds after the assassination.

The biggest problem you have is believing everything Shelley and Lovelady said in their affidavits, in spite of photographic evidence to the contrary. Why? Because you just don't want Baker to enter the TSBD when he said he did.

--Tommy

Edited September 8, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Clive Largey]

...

Totally Separate Question: Do you believe Couch / Darnell started filming about 20 seconds after the final shot, or a minute or so later?

Thanks,

--Tommy

PS -- Regarding your belief that in Couch / Darnell, Lovelady can be seen rising up from a sitting position on the steps, I just remembered that in Wiegman and Altgens 6 we can see him standing on the steps, watching the motorcade! Can you think of any reason he (or anyone else) would have knelt down or sat down on the steps after hearing what sounded (to many) like shots being fired as the President of the United States was passing by? Don't you think he would have been interested in seeing what was going on? I find it implausible that he would have knelt / sat down at that point, so that's why I'm leaning towards interpreting your "rising Lovelady on the steps" as the back side and scarfed head (light colored scarf) of an older woman slowly climbing the steps and using the left handrail as she does so.

Comments?

Anyone?

Tommy,

the only evidence on film of anyone reacting to sounds that sounded like shots are a few gentlemen in the FUC who have been trained to listen for unusual noises. In Wiegman we see no reaction from anyone lining the street outside the epicentre of that terrible headshot.Three to six shots have already been fired when he last captures spectators outside the TSBD and the crowd opposite as seen in Dorman mirror them by doing absolutely nothing out of the ordinary immediately after the assault.

That is partially the reason why I believe those already standing between Darnell's camera and the entrance hadn't the

slightest clue about this shooting.

So then, if a man is seen on the steps crouching down(to pick up a bottle of coke off the steps perhaps) it not really that unusual to me. The man walking away still looks decent enough to be Lovelady though but I cannot find the bald spot. It's simply not there but everything else is reasonable.

I think the consensus is around twenty seconds for Darnell and Couch to suddenly start filming at the exact same second.

Twenty seconds, to hit a button or switch? Both of them? After hearing all those shots?

You don't think that perhaps they had nothing to film because nothing happened near to them and all the action was further down the street?

Edited September 8, 2015 by Clive Largey

[Thomas Graves]

...

Totally Separate Question: Do you believe Couch / Darnell started filming about 20 seconds after the final shot, or a minute or so later?

Thanks,

--Tommy

PS -- Regarding your belief that in Couch / Darnell, Lovelady can be seen rising up from a sitting position on the steps, I just remembered that in Wiegman and Altgens 6 we can see him standing on the steps, watching the motorcade! Can you think of any reason he (or anyone else) would have knelt down or sat down on the steps after hearing what sounded (to many) like shots being fired as the President of the United States was passing by? Don't you think he would have been interested in seeing what was going on? I find it implausible that he would have knelt / sat down at that point, so that's why I'm leaning towards interpreting your "rising Lovelady on the steps" as the back side and scarfed head (light colored scarf) of an older woman slowly climbing the steps and using the left handrail as she does so.

Comments?

Anyone?

Tommy,

the only evidence on film of anyone reacting to sounds that sounded like shots are a few gentlemen in the FUC who have been trained to listen for unusual noises. In Wiegman we see no reaction from anyone lining the street outside the epicentre of that terrible headshot.Three to six shots have already been fired when he last captures spectators outside the TSBD and the crowd opposite as seen in Dorman mirror them by doing absolutely nothing out of the ordinary immediately after the assault.

That is partially the reason why I believe those already standing between Darnell's camera and the entrance hadn't the

slightest clue about this shooting.

So then, if a man is seen on the steps crouching down(to pick up a bottle of coke off the steps perhaps) it not really that unusual to me. The man walking away still looks decent enough to be Lovelady though but I cannot find the bald spot. It's simply not there but everything else is reasonable.

I think the consensus is around twenty seconds for Darnell and Couch to suddenly start filming at the exact same second.

Twenty seconds, to hit a button or switch? Both of them? After hearing all those shots?

You don't think that perhaps they had nothing to film because nothing happened near to them and all the action was further down the street?

Sorry Clive, but I think you're wrong.

In Wiegman, there are two guys standing next to each other on the sidewalk and wearing khaki work clothes. The one on the left looks back at the front entrance of the TSBD after at least the first shot has been fired (as evidenced by the fact that Wiegman starts panning back to the right a second or two earlier, re-filming the people he has just filmed.) It's obvious to me that Wiegman is reacting to the shot or shots, too. The guy in khaki who is looking back towards the TSBD at this point was not doing so just a few seconds earlier (when the car with the big fins was passing in front of him) -- he was looking straight ahead.

Also, hard hat-wearing A. J. Millican and some Black women to his left can be seen looking in the direction of the TSBD at that same time, in distinct contrast to all the other people around them on Elm Street who are watching the limo.

I guess you're saying that very few, if any, people on the steps heard gunshots or "firecrackers," and that none of those that did thought it was all that unusual or worth watching the results of.

Regarding Lovelady's bald spot, I don't think it's reasonable to expect to be able to see it from so far away and in such relatively poor resolution. The bald spot was on the top of his head, wasn't it?

Regardless, I can definitely see Lovelady's bald forehead and his short, stocky physique.

Regarding your statement that in Couch / Darnell "the crowd are doing absolutely nothing unusual after the assault," I suggest that you look at the synchronized Couch / Darnell clips again.

A motorcycle policeman (Baker) is running towards the TSBD. One guy climbs the base of a light pole to get a better view. Many people are standing still and gazing in the direction of the limo / Grassy Knoll. A woman wearing a head scarf and a gray raincoat is walking rapidly towards the TSBD while looking down the street towards the grassy knoll, but then stops, continuing to look towards the Grassy Knoll. A man wearing light-colored clothes and a cowboy hat is staring up at the upper windows. Two older women watch Baker run towards the TSBD. A kid near the "island" starts running down the street towards the grassy knoll. Farther down the sidewalk, two children run up to their father from behind, as he's rapidly walking down the sidewalk, and spin him around. A man at the base of the steps sidesteps out of Baker's way and motions him up the steps with his left arm. Running woman is running down the Elm Street Extension towards the TSBD. Two men who look like Shelley and Lovelady watch her run past them and start running down or diagonally across the Elm Street Extension, themselves. A woman in a dark-colored coat is running towards the steps. Etc, etc.

There's plenty of photographic evidence that almost everyone heard the shots or "firecrackers," and are now wondering what in the heck is going on. But you would have Lovelady kneel down to have another sip of pop?

LOL

--Tommy

PS As I said in another post, I think the "Lovelady" rising up on the steps in Couch / Darnell is actually a woman walking up the steps, wearing a light-colored scarf on her head, and using the handrail.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

I wish I could find the close up of the steps in the Darnell/Couch film. You can quite plainly see a man bent or crouched down on the steps, as if he was talking to someone below him. He then is seen to rise up before the camera pans away. He also looks suspiciously like Lovelady.

Does anyone know where this close up film is?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Found it.

Just below PM, a man is seen rising up or lifting his head up, presumably after leaning over to speak to the person below him.

Is this Lovelady?

[Clive Largey]

Tommy,

I know it must sound slightly crazy and I know it goes against practically every witness account but some researcher's observations have influenced me and I cannot go back. Everything you read into these two films as you kindly detailed above can be read differently.

Dale Myers has "synced" Wiegman with Dorman.

00:00.00= Z313 exactly or so he thinks. It cannot be far off.

Look at the frames in your best copies and just watch the bystanders in W & D.

No one makes sudden moves to avoid bullets, no one takes cover or even looks concerned, no one reacts at all. Not up there near the intersection.

Turning heads might be a reaction to an odd sound or two perhaps but no one has given anyone near them any reason to panic.

Further down the street five to six seconds later and closer to the epicentre, no reaction to a possible life threatening event from all these women.

Note that Charles Hester still isn't off the bench yet to save his wife, clearly neither of them reacted during the shooting.

He waited six seconds after Z313 to even begin to move, with he and Beatrice "directly in the line of fire".

Can anyone explain this? Read his statement again.

Wiegman may have not reacted to the shots at all.

You see, running towards the VIP at the first sign of a motorcade slowing wasn't exactly unusual behaviour for Dave.

He was in fact travelling in that lead camera car with Atkins for this very reason. It's what he did, "hundreds of times". That quote is from memory I'll find what he said exactly.

As Baker comes around into Elm and looks ahead of him, the first thing he must have seen is Dave Wiegman jumping out.

The timing is perfect and I think Baker slowed down to watch what he was up to.

Wiegman also appears to have had an influence on Hargis.

In his film Baker is stood by his bike, the next time we see him in Bell, he's on the sidewalk.

Not knowing who Wiegman was and seeing him run with purpose to the knoll seems to have sent Hargis running in the same direction but suddenly comes to a stop, at the exact same time Wiegman sat on the steps to film the Hesters.

Again the timing of this is pretty close but it's very hard to prove even with Altgens providing a very good supporting account with an image to go with it.

I now believe that without Dave and his uncontrollable habit of jumping out of his vehicle to grab some exclusive footage, Marrion would have continued on down as far as the Newmans at least.

You'll notice in Dorman, the rider opposite Baker does exactly that, he turns the corner as usual and continues on.

Wiegman gave Baker a clear heads up, that's why he stopped past the entrance to the building and collected more clues.

Okay so it's not great but it's the basis of a theory that's impossible to prove.

There are no signs of panic anywhere near the TSBD that I see, curiosity sure but "where did those shots come from?" I think not. More like, very simply "has something happened?".

Edited December 24, 2016 by Clive Largey
*Where underlined I meant Hargis not Baker. Fixed.

[Clive Largey]

Just below PM, a man is seen rising up or lifting his head up, presumably after leaning over to speak to the person below him.

Is this Lovelady?

I do happen to think that the man walking down the extension has more going for him, even without the bald patch but who would rule out either one of them at this stage?

Tommy said:

Regarding Lovelady's bald spot, I don't think it's reasonable to expect to be able to see it from so far away and in such relatively poor resolution. The bald spot was on the top of his head, wasn't it?

Actually, if you look at the Martin clip or when he's in the police station it was slightly more than just the top, the sides where beginning to be affected too, I'm not saying we should see the patch in Darnell.

I'm just, I suppose, "arguing" against the repeated references to it by others.

The same spots can be seen on the other man's head.

It's almost too good not to be both of them.

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy,

I know it must sound slightly crazy and I know it goes against practically every witness account but some researcher's observations have influenced me and I cannot go back. Everything you read into these two films as you kindly detailed above can be read differently.

Dale Myers has "synced" Wiegman with Dorman.

00:00.00= Z313 exactly or so he thinks. It cannot be far off.

Look at the frames in your best copies and just watch the bystanders in W & D.

No one makes sudden moves to avoid bullets, no one takes cover or even looks concerned, no one reacts at all. Not up there near the intersection.

Turning heads might be a reaction to an odd sound or two perhaps but no one has given anyone near them any reason to panic.

Further down the street five to six seconds later and closer to the epicentre, no reaction to a possible life threatening event from all these women.

Note that Charles Hester still isn't off the bench yet to save his wife, clearly neither of them reacted during the shooting.

He waited six seconds after Z313 to even begin to move, with he and Beatrice "directly in the line of fire".

Can anyone explain this? Read his statement again.

Wiegman may have not reacted to the shots at all.

You see, running towards the VIP at the first sign of a motorcade slowing wasn't exactly unusual behaviour for Dave.

He was in fact travelling in that lead camera car with Atkins for this very reason. It's what he did, "hundreds of times". That quote is from memory I'll find what he said exactly.

As Baker comes around into Elm and looks ahead of him, the first thing he must have seen is Dave Wiegman jumping out.

The timing is perfect and I think Baker slowed down to watch what he was up to.

Wiegman also appears to have had an influence on Baker.

In his film Baker is stood by his bike, the next time we see him in Bell, he's on the sidewalk.

Not knowing who Wiegman was and seeing him run with purpose to the knoll seems to have sent Marrion running in the same direction but suddenly comes to a stop, at the exact same time Wiegman sat on the steps to film the Hesters.

Again the timing of this is pretty close but it's very hard to prove even with Altgens providing a very good supporting account with an image to go with it.

I now believe that without Dave and his uncontrollable habit of jumping out of his vehicle to grab some exclusive footage, Marrion would have continued on down as far as the Newmans at least.

You'll notice in Dorman, the rider opposite Baker does exactly that, he turns the corner as usual and continues on.

Wiegman gave Baker a clear heads up, that's why he stopped past the entrance to the building and collected more clues.

Okay so it's not great but it's the basis of a theory that's impossible to prove.

There are no signs of panic anywhere near the TSBD that I see, curiosity sure but "where did those shots come from?" I think not. More like, very simply "has something happened?".

Clive,

If Wiegman wasn't reacting to the shot or shots when he briefly panned back to the right (but evidently not far enough to film your "VIP" -- what's that, anyway?), why then did he "pan" back to the left so quickly and unprofessionally? Are you saying that Wiegman didn't react to the sounds of the gunshots or 'firecrackers" until he was in the middle of his relatively slow panning to the right?

Where are A. J. Millican and the Black women to his left in the frames you've posted?

--Tommy

Edited September 9, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

Just below PM, a man is seen rising up or lifting his head up, presumably after leaning over to speak to the person below him.

Is this Lovelady?

I do happen to think that the man walking down the extension has more going for him, even without the bald patch but who would rule out either one of them at this stage?

Tommy said:

Regarding Lovelady's bald spot, I don't think it's reasonable to expect to be able to see it from so far away and in such relatively poor resolution. The bald spot was on the top of his head, wasn't it?

Actually, if you look at the Martin clip or when he's in the police station it was slightly more than just the top, the sides where beginning to be affected too, I'm not saying we should see the patch in Darnell.

I'm just, I suppose, "arguing" against the repeated references to it by others.

The same spots can be seen on the other man's head.

It's almost too good not to be both of them.

Clive,

You actually blew it up a bit too much, reducing what little resolution there was to begin with.

That is both of them. Starting out with Shelley on the left and Lovelady on the right for those of you who need help.

Note, among other things, Shelley's distinctive hairdo, and short, stocky Lovelady's bald forehead just before and then again a split-second after he's passed Shelley.

--Tommy

Edited September 10, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Clive Largey]

VIP = very important person, in this case the President and he's not got the camera up to his eye Tommy, all he's doing is getting ready to jump out.

 

Wiegman and the first two to follow him onto the knoll travelling in the same vehicle.

Pictures of the Pain. Richard Trask (Camera Car 1 p372-)

 

Telephone interview 1989.

Selected portions from me but verbatim(as much as I'm able).

 

Quote

Wiegman: "... the adrenalin started pumping because there was a reaction in the motorcade... the car slowed enough for me to jump out... I knew the reaction was to run forward. I'd done this before in other motorcades where the President will stop and do something... it was a technique I've used and I've gotten some pretty good pictures that way.

That may have been built in, to get out there, run and get up there to see what the the heck was happening.

 

The idea of turning on the camera. I don't know where that came from. I've turned in some real sloppy work over the years... because I believed that sometimes you're not photographing what's happening so much as the moment... something told me "hey look, what have you got to lose... " so I just put it against my chest because you can't run with Filmo up to your eyes..."

 

 

There you have it, it was a technique/habit.

His first instinct was to jump out and run forward when he saw the motorcade slow, he did it all the time and he's only after exclusive shots of the President. IMHO that he captured a few good frames of the people outside the TSBD was just a coincidence. The only thing in his mind is getting out and running forward. That's what he says in between telling us it was the sounds that he reacted to and makes no mention of being slightly scared of said sounds and neither does anyone else in any of the camera cars.

 

 

1986 telephone interview (POTP P375)

Quote

ATKINS: "The car came to a stop we all jumped out, I don't know where I was going or what I was doing."

..."Out of the corner of my eye I saw the car start to take off... I just ran... and dove head first into the back seat, otherwise I would have been left there.

 

 

 

Another who couldn't wait to leave the scene of the biggest story of his life which thanks to his honesty we know he hadn't the slightest clue about. Neither did Craven or Wiegman. That's why they left so quickly and Tom filmed nothing until Wiegman ran down to the Newmans. Just stood there watching Dave, as seen in Couch.

 

(POTP 374 Telephone interview 1986)

CRAVEN: Said it was other people's reactions that made him jump out, he names the Newmans.

 

This is the theory then, without Wiegman and his habit of jumping out, everything keeps moving except Baker and no one stops at the intersection and no one looks at the TSBD, including Brennan, Jackson and Euins.

It's a complete chain reaction.

 

Why are people looking up at the windows in Darnell?

That's been explained to me but I'll need time to put it all together.

 

Sorry about the blow-up, was just looking too hard for the patch

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by Clive Largey
more spacing between those quotes.

[Clive Largey]

...

Where are A. J. Millican and the Black women to his left in the frames you've posted?

--Tommy

They are just out of shot in that frame, to the west. In Wiegman's next semi usable frame of the bystanders they are clearly identifiable, Millican is at least, still with arms folded, I think.

[Thomas Graves]

Clive,

Regarding your statement about "the other man" in post # 168,

I'm convinced that "the other man" is Lovelady [edit 12/5/15 : Shelley] because (among other things), you can see his distinctive combed-up-in-the-front hairdo in about half of the frames of the low-resolution gif you posted.

Shelley circled in red:

--Tommy

Edited December 6, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Clive,

Regarding your statement about "the other man" in post # 168,

I'm convinced that "the other man" is Lovelady because (among other things), you can see his distinctive combed-up-in-the-front hairdo in about half of the frames of the low-resolution gif you posted.

Shelley circled in red:

--Tommy

That is definitely Shelley, looking very sour (unhappy?) about being led to give his statement; or maybe that was just his natural expression.

This photo put me in mind of something Gary Mack wrote regarding Prayer Man. I believe it was his contribution to the "PM is Anyone but Oswald" campaign.

"On Sept. 19^, 2013 Gary Mack wrote: The Prayer Man question has probably been answered. I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought. First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough. He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldn’t confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality.

Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build. When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he “dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.” And he repeated that he, Lovelady and Shelley stayed on the steps for “a short time” after the last shot, but he didn’t estimate how long.

So unless Buell Frazier is still part of the cover-up plot, TSBD “Miscellaneous Department” manager William Shelley, by elimination, must be Prayer Man. According to Shelley’s testimony, “I didn’t do anything for a minute” following the last shot, so the man was standing on the steps before, during and after the time Darnell and Couch filmed those brief scenes.

Gary Mack"

I guess the 6th Floor Museum doesn't have the photo of Shelley in a suit, eh?

Edited September 10, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

Clive,

Regarding your statement about "the other man" in post # 168,

I'm convinced that "the other man" is Lovelady Shelley because (among other things), you can see his distinctive combed-up-in-the-front hairdo in about half of the frames of the low-resolution gif you posted.

Shelley circled in red:

--Tommy

That is definitely Shelley, looking very sour (unhappy?) about being led to give his statement; or maybe that was just his natural expression.

This photo put me in mind of something Gary Mack wrote regarding Prayer Man. I believe it was his contribution to the "PM is Anyone but Oswald" campaign.

"On Sept. 19^, 2013 Gary Mack wrote: The Prayer Man question has probably been answered. I recently sent the Couch and Darnell frames to Buell Frazier and asked what he thought. First, he wouldn’t confirm himself being on the top step because the image isn’t clear enough. He then re-confirmed that Lovelady and Shelley were out on the steps with him, just as he has always said, but he couldn’t confirm Shelley, either, due to the image quality.

Next I asked about Shelley’s appearance and learned he was a little taller than Lovelady (who was 5’8”), had red hair and a slender build. When I asked if Shelley usually wore a coat and tie to work Buell said no, he “dressed daily in slacks and sport shirts.” And he repeated that he, Lovelady and Shelley stayed on the steps for “a short time” after the last shot, but he didn’t estimate how long.

So unless Buell Frazier is still part of the cover-up plot, TSBD “Miscellaneous Department” manager William Shelley, by elimination, must be Prayer Man. According to Shelley’s testimony, “I didn’t do anything for a minute” following the last shot, so the man was standing on the steps before, during and after the time Darnell and Couch filmed those brief scenes.

Gary Mack"

I guess the 6th Floor Museum doesn't have the photo of Shelley in a suit, eh?

Not sure what you're getting at regarding Shelley, Robert.

Can you see his distinctive hair style in the photo in which he's walking with Arce and Williams and Detective Brown to the police car?

Good! Well, that's a start at least.

If you look closely you can see that the man I claim is Shelley in the Couch / Darnell gif Clive posted has the same combed-up-in-front hairdoo in about half of the frames, which leads me to believe that we really are seeing that hairdo on him and not just "aberrations" or "artifacts" attendant to the film's development, poor resolution, etc.

Edit: Another good view of Shelley (L. and R.) and his hairdo (R.).

Credit: Gerda Dunckel

(Shelley on far right; Detective C. W. Brown in flashing red circle)

--Tommy

Edited December 6, 2015 by Thomas Graves