Did Gloria Calvery almost catch up to Marion Baker?

[Thomas Graves]

On 9/13/2015 at 4:47 AM, Paul Rigby said:

On 9/12/2015 at 7:59 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Mr. Rigby,

Could you please post some photos of Simmons, Holt, and Jacob?

Or did the bad guys alter all of them?

The photos, I mean.

Thanks,

--Tommy

Delighted to at least partially assist, doubting Thomas. Here is Holt from the ROKC website thread, Minor Witnesses, courtesy of Stan Dane, who, to his additional credit, correctly identifies the side (south) of Elm on which she took temporary residence:

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13242379-minor-witnesses

So, in the spirit of amicable reciprocity, a question for a question: where are the group of Holt, Jacob, and Simmons on the south curb of Elm facing Zapruder?

Dear Mr. Rigby,

I don't see how Dane's paraphrasing of a FBI report / statement equates to his "correctly identifying the side (south) of Elm on which [Holt] took temporary residence." The FBI report might have been wrong. All Dane did was show us, by accurate paraphrasing, what the report said. .

--Tommy

Edited December 18, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Clive Largey]

I'm wondering how much time elapsed between this still

and this still

Robert,

the only way I've seen this calculated is by using Wiegman in Couch and anyone can check it for themselves.

Wiegman stops filming the Hesters close to 24secs after Z313*, then runs to the Newmans and Couch partially captured this event three seconds into his own film.

So, it's very probable that Mal(and Jimmy) started filming within a second or two of Dave stopping or even, at the exact same time.

So 24s after Z313 for the Couch frame you chose

and the Wiegman frame is actually 3s before Z313.

So 27 seconds between the two.

*That can be worked out because Wiegman just happened to catch the limo in one frame.

Speaking of Wiegman.

Does a newsman that's just witnessed first hand shots and all, an attempted assassination of the President then head to the original destination of the motorcade?

Well it could happen, he couldn't have know he was actually shot.

While he's heading there though and with a Lem Johns on-board, there must have been more than a little speculation amongst the passengers, you would think.

So when they arrive at the Trade Mart, what does Dave Wiegman do?

Does he alert the cops at least?

12:45pm Johns hears a broadcast over a radio that he's been hit and Dave, Tom and Lem head to Parkland.

It's not concrete evidence he was as in the dark as Atkins but one might be forgiven for thinking that Dave had no clue about a shooting at all.

[Thomas Graves]

I'm wondering how much time elapsed between this still

and this still

Robert,

the only way I've seen this calculated is by using Wiegman in Couch and anyone can check it for themselves.

Wiegman stops filming the Hesters close to 24secs after Z313*, then runs to the Newmans and Couch partially captured this event three seconds into his own film.

So, it's very probable that Mal(and Jimmy) started filming within a second or two of Dave stopping or even, at the exact same time.

So 24s after Z313 for the Couch frame you chose

and the Wiegman frame is actually 3s before Z313.

So 27 seconds between the two.

*That can be worked out because Wiegman just happened to catch the limo in one frame.

Speaking of Wiegman.

Does a newsman that's just witnessed first hand shots and all, an attempted assassination of the President then head to the original destination of the motorcade?

Well it could happen, he couldn't have know he was actually shot.

While he's heading there though and with a Lem Johns on-board, there must have been more than a little speculation amongst the passengers, you would think.

So when they arrive at the Trade Mart, what does Dave Wiegman do?

Does he alert the cops at least?

[...]

12:45pm Johns hears a broadcast over a radio that he's been hit and Dave, Tom and Lem head to Parkland.

It's not concrete evidence he was as in the dark as Atkins but one might be forgiven for thinking that Dave had no clue about a shooting at all.

Dear Clive,

Alert the police about what?

Why do you think Wiegman jumped out of his car and ran like a madman down Elm and filmed the Hester's, etc, on the Grassy Knoll?

Because he thought the TSBD sniper might have been aiming for them?

You ask: Why did Wiegman leave the immediate area of the TSBD if he thought the shots had come from there?

Well, he had to make a quick decision, didn't he.

Perhaps it was partly based on what we nowadays call "denial".

"OMG, President Kennedy couldn't have been shot."

--Tommy

Edited September 13, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Clive Largey]

...

I remember telling you guys *I* wrote it up - I was quite happy with my hard work - and that I had used some of the photos you guys had found of her found before I even joined that thread (and I also used photos I found of her grave marker and wedding announcement) to make her memorial. So yes, that's my handiwork.

Later! Time for lunch and finishing and posting my little project...

Linda,

if I had known it was yours at first, I would have not used the phrase "taking liberties" and I doubt Robert would have either, my sincere apologies to you. The way you present your work here speaks for itself and I thank you for continuing to share it and your thoughts with us.

I knew reasonably well how you made the connections to that being Calvary on film but I suppose it had something to do with it being presented on a website outside of the research community as fact that ever so slightly "irked" us.

[Thomas Graves]

...

I remember telling you guys *I* wrote it up - I was quite happy with my hard work - and that I had used some of the photos you guys had found of her found before I even joined that thread (and I also used photos I found of her grave marker and wedding announcement) to make her memorial. So yes, that's my handiwork.

Later! Time for lunch and finishing and posting my little project...

Linda,

if I had known it was yours at first, I would have not used the phrase "taking liberties" and I doubt Robert would have either, my sincere apologies to you. The way you present your work here speaks for itself and I thank you for continuing to share it and your thoughts with us.

I knew reasonably well how you made the connections to that being Calvary on film but I suppose it had something to do with it being presented on a website outside of the research community as fact that ever so slightly "irked" us.

Right,

We try to only insult people we don't know.

LOL

--Tommy

[Clive Largey]

Wiegman later claimed to have witnessed the shooting, he heard "three load booms" he said Tommy but when he got to the Trade Mart all he did was hang around for ten minutes filming the spectators still awaiting the motorcade.

I've already provided evidence in this thread that Wiegman himself told us he ran to the front out of habit.

Sure, denial yes that's possible but so too is my point, that he was clueless to a shooting and heard nothing worth worrying about especially since he explained to us that that his actions were nothing unusual and there we have him hanging around the Trade Mart after the shooting doing nothing out of the ordinary.

If he heard a shooting, wouldn't you at least expect for him to tell someone at the Trade Mart about it and then quite possibly record there response to it?

Do you even realise just what rabid news hound this man was? If there was anyone who could be defined as Paparazzi in that motorcade it was him.

Watch the clip I linked to, there is six cops guarding the limo at PH and he still manages to sneak up and get a shot of the inside of it before they push him back.

Anyway, you disagree, what can I do? I don't have much more.

[Clive Largey]

...

I remember telling you guys *I* wrote it up - I was quite happy with my hard work - and that I had used some of the photos you guys had found of her found before I even joined that thread (and I also used photos I found of her grave marker and wedding announcement) to make her memorial. So yes, that's my handiwork.

Later! Time for lunch and finishing and posting my little project...

Linda,

if I had known it was yours at first, I would have not used the phrase "taking liberties" and I doubt Robert would have either, my sincere apologies to you. The way you present your work here speaks for itself and I thank you for continuing to share it and your thoughts with us.

I knew reasonably well how you made the connections to that being Calvary on film but I suppose it had something to do with it being presented on a website outside of the research community as fact that ever so slightly "irked" us.

Right,

We try to only insult people we don't know.

LOL

--Tommy

Boy is there a hair up your behind today.

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

Anyway, you disagree, what can I do? I don't have much more.

Clive,

Correct. I disagree.

I guess your whole point is that one of the two guys wearing khaki in front of the TSBD during the motorcade couldn't have turned to look at the TSBD in response to having heard a shot or shots coming from there. Ditto A. J. Millican and the black women next to him down on Elm Street.

--Tommy

[Clive Largey]

The better frames Wiegman that show no reaction from anyone east of the hard hatted gentleman.

Just quickly put together for reference.

If you look close you can make out apparently Charles Hester actually disappearing from view, whilst Beatrice is still on her feet, so it looks from this that rather than run to her and push her down, he hit the dirt and she ran to him.

[Clive Largey]

[...]

Anyway, you disagree, what can I do? I don't have much more.

Clive,

Correct. I disagree.

I guess your whole point is that one of the two guys wearing khaki in front of the TSBD during the motorcade couldn't have turned to look at the TSBD in response to having heard a shot or shots coming from there. Ditto A. J. Millican and the black women next to him down on Elm Street.

--Tommy

Well, I haven't commented on this at all but the President has gone by them already, so for some there is not much use in continuing to watch the back of a head when there are other VIPs that they may recognise passing directly in front of them.

I don't see anything noteworthy with the Khaki guy either, he takes his eye of the motorcade for a second, as do many, many others all alone the parade route. He might have heard something sure, a pop, a bang, someone shouting something stupid, anything.

You have to look at Dorman again sometime Tommy and watch the lack of reaction on the south side there by the intersection, it completely supports this theory. Betzner is one we know and recognise, he heard the first shot he said immediately after he took his photo on Elm and yet he just stands there watching the limo with woman and children near him.

Isn't he supposed to at least look around and see if he himself is in harms way?

Anyway it is what it is, the films support it but it isn't about no one hearing anything and lying about it, in that regard I'd say many heard something but this is and my own point, they showed no outward signs of being scared of these sounds, these sounds later became shots.

Willis is another one we know well and claimed he recognised the first shot as gunfire, I am totally convinced that he, like everyone else directly opposite him, just stood there and made no move to protect himself or his family.

I have have no way of knowing what this really signifies but one firecracker followed by "two booms" that are obviously to everyone as gunfire is clearly out of the question.

Everything starts with the unmissable head shot, the reaction in the crowd starts there and spreads. Wiegman too sets off a minor chain of events outside the TSBD.

That's what the films say.

It get's worse.

At this point I'm even willing to believe the possibility that even that man and woman on the pedestal may have missed the whole thing, they certainly do not seem afraid of any sound they are alleged to have heard.

Now, how can you capture something on film like that but not be aware of it?

[Robert Prudhomme]

...

I remember telling you guys *I* wrote it up - I was quite happy with my hard work - and that I had used some of the photos you guys had found of her found before I even joined that thread (and I also used photos I found of her grave marker and wedding announcement) to make her memorial. So yes, that's my handiwork.

Later! Time for lunch and finishing and posting my little project...

Linda,

if I had known it was yours at first, I would have not used the phrase "taking liberties" and I doubt Robert would have either, my sincere apologies to you. The way you present your work here speaks for itself and I thank you for continuing to share it and your thoughts with us.

I knew reasonably well how you made the connections to that being Calvary on film but I suppose it had something to do with it being presented on a website outside of the research community as fact that ever so slightly "irked" us.

My sentiments precisely, Linda. Without knowing you had written that memorial, I assumed that Calvery running a few feet behind Baker was a fact confirmed by a close friend or family member of Calvery's. It was a bit of a surprise to me when I saw you had written the memorial.

[Robert Prudhomme]

[...]

Anyway, you disagree, what can I do? I don't have much more.

Clive,

Correct. I disagree.

I guess your whole point is that one of the two guys wearing khaki in front of the TSBD during the motorcade couldn't have turned to look at the TSBD in response to having heard a shot or shots coming from there. Ditto A. J. Millican and the black women next to him down on Elm Street.

--Tommy

Well, I haven't commented on this at all but the President has gone by them already, so for some there is not much use in continuing to watch the back of a head when there are other VIPs that they may recognise passing directly in front of them.

I don't see anything noteworthy with the Khaki guy either, he takes his eye of the motorcade for a second, as do many, many others all alone the parade route. He might have heard something sure, a pop, a bang, someone shouting something stupid, anything.

You have to look at Dorman again sometime Tommy and watch the lack of reaction on the south side there by the intersection, it completely supports this theory. Betzner is one we know and recognise, he heard the first shot he said immediately after he took his photo on Elm and yet he just stands there watching the limo with woman and children near him.

Isn't he supposed to at least look around and see if he himself is in harms way?

Anyway it is what it is, the films support it but it isn't about no one hearing anything and lying about it, in that regard I'd say many heard something but this is and my own point, they showed no outward signs of being scared of these sounds, these sounds later became shots.

Willis is another one we know well and claimed he recognised the first shot as gunfire, I am totally convinced that he, like everyone else directly opposite him, just stood there and made no move to protect himself or his family.

I have have no way of knowing what this really signifies but one firecracker followed by "two booms" that are obviously to everyone as gunfire is clearly out of the question.

Everything starts with the unmissable head shot, the reaction in the crowd starts there and spreads. Wiegman too sets off a minor chain of events outside the TSBD.

That's what the films say.

It get's worse.

At this point I'm even willing to believe the possibility that even that man and woman on the pedestal may have missed the whole thing, they certainly do not seem afraid of any sound they are alleged to have heard.

Now, how can you capture something on film like that but not be aware of it?

Hi Clive

Considering how loud a rifle report directly above them and pointed in their general direction would have been, don't you find it odd that there are no startle reactions visible on the faces of the bystanders, not even as late as the Altgens 6 photo?

Edited September 13, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Thomas Graves]

[...]

Anyway, you disagree, what can I do? I don't have much more.

Clive,

Correct. I disagree.

I guess your whole point is that one of the two guys wearing khaki in front of the TSBD during the motorcade couldn't have turned to look at the TSBD in response to having heard a shot or shots coming from there. Ditto A. J. Millican and the black women next to him down on Elm Street.

--Tommy

Well, I haven't commented on this at all but the President has gone by them already, so for some there is not much use in continuing to watch the back of a head when there are other VIPs that they may recognise passing directly in front of them.

I don't see anything noteworthy with the Khaki guy either, he takes his eye of the motorcade for a second, as do many, many others all alone the parade route. He might have heard something sure, a pop, a bang, someone shouting something stupid, anything.

You have to look at Dorman again sometime Tommy and watch the lack of reaction on the south side there by the intersection, it completely supports this theory. Betzner is one we know and recognise, he heard the first shot he said immediately after he took his photo on Elm and yet he just stands there watching the limo with woman and children near him.

Isn't he supposed to at least look around and see if he himself is in harms way?

Anyway it is what it is, the films support it but it isn't about no one hearing anything and lying about it, in that regard I'd say many heard something but this is and my own point, they showed no outward signs of being scared of these sounds, these sounds later became shots.

Willis is another one we know well and claimed he recognised the first shot as gunfire, I am totally convinced that he, like everyone else directly opposite him, just stood there and made no move to protect himself or his family.

I have have no way of knowing what this really signifies but one firecracker followed by "two booms" that are obviously to everyone as gunfire is clearly out of the question.

Everything starts with the unmissable head shot, the reaction in the crowd starts there and spreads. Wiegman too sets off a minor chain of events outside the TSBD.

That's what the films say.

It get's worse.

At this point I'm even willing to believe the possibility that even that man and woman on the pedestal may have missed the whole thing, they certainly do not seem afraid of any sound they are alleged to have heard.

Now, how can you capture something on film like that but not be aware of it?

Hi Clive

Considering how loud a rifle report directly above them and pointed in their general direction would have been, don't you find it odd that there are no startle reactions visible on the faces of the bystanders, not even as late as the Altgens 6 photo?

Robert,

Well I guess that proves it. No shots were fired from the TSBD.

--Tommy

[Clive Largey]

Robert yes and the echoes too, making it pretty much unmistakable to anyone even half awake after the second time they hear it.

"Oh no it's Dale Myers" has put this frame at @Z313 exactly

http://www.jfkfiles.com/jfk/html/report_download.html

Either they all had never heard gunshots before or it just simply happened another way.

[Clive Largey]

Tom Craven next to Wiegman in (CC1 POTP 383)

"We thought it was motorcycle backfire but after we found out there were shots being fired from the TSBD...".

Logic.

I almost completely sure the video I linked to yesterday is from Wiegman but it could be mixed with some of Craven's footage. Trask, usually quite a good source, seems to have glossed over the fact that they were at the Trade Mart for a good ten minutes and gives the reader the impression through Craven's memory(rather than the above footage that tells another story) that they left with Johns almost immediately.

PS.

I'm sorry if this is going too off topic but I was original inspired by the idea of people interpreting the Darnell and Couch footage as people panicking, I read it completely differently and I'm not going to keep banging on about it.

Thanks for accommodating me.