Prayer Man is a Man

[Andrej Stancak]

To show the level reached by a person 5' 2 1/2'' on a figure of a man 6', I have prepared a realistic human model with standard male proportions in Poser 11.1. Then I scaled one of the figures to 6' and another to 5' 2 1/2'', and also added a 7 1/2 grid (this refers to the observations that the height of human head fills the body height 7.5 times).

Please note how well the top of the short person's head aligns with the tall person's chin. This is exactly what we see in Darnell and what all other estimates predicted. The 5'4'' line would cross the mouth. This is too a high level of Prayer Man's head compared to what is evidenced in Darnell, and too bad for those few who believe that Prayer Man was Mrs. Stanton (who, by the way, was 5'6''). 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Jim Hargrove]

Rather than argue endlessly about this blurry photo, why doesn’t someone just call Buell Wesley Frazier and ask him about the so-called “Prayer Man?”  He can be seen directly facing the person you are debating about.

Len Osanic (Black Ops Radio) knows Mr. Frazier’s number and might share it with a serious researcher.

And, by the way, this has already been done by a person banned here, so I won’t say what he says.  If you really think Prayer Man is “Oswald,” wouldn’t it be worth at least hearing from an eyewitness who was right there looking at the person?

[Andrej Stancak]

Jim:

I have prepared an account of my work for Mr. Frazier for the CAPA conference last November, unfortunately, Mr. Frazier was unwell and could not come and answer the questions. 

I am more than happy to call Mr. Frazier if I am given the number. However, I have some reservations about doing it because I believe that the questions should be asked by a person who does not have that strong opinion about who Prayer Man was. What can happen is that the interviewer can manipulate the witness to say what s/he wants. For instance, if the interviewer asks Mr. Frazier what colour was Mrs. Stanton's hair and he answers that it was blond, a bad interviewer would then spend minutes to persuade Mr. Frazier that the lady could also have coloured her hair, and Mr. Frazier somehow says she could. Similarly, if Mr. Frazier says right away that Mrs. Stanton stood to his left, a bad interviewer who only pursuits his goals would spend minutes to confuse the witness with his gibberish after which  Mr. Frazier says something that people changed their locations after the shooting and this will be taken as Mr. Frazier's view that Mrs. Stanton changed her location after the shooting to became Prayer Man (only  that Prayer Man was at his spot already in Wiegman). Instead of just asking a non-leading question and watching Mr. Frazier's reactions (therefore a phone call is not the best form for such interview), a bad interviewer constantly rambles on about his own theories whatever the witness says.

Mr. Frazier needs to be interviewed with visual evidence at hand, the session should be recorded and questions should be non-leading. There should be two-three researchers around whom Mr. Frazier trusts. This is what I hope will happen one day, and my non-recorded phone call can only disturb things.

In all fairness, Mr. Frazier cannot say who Prayer Man was. He just cannot. If he could, he would say. If Prayer Man was not Oswald, it was possible to say who he was with impunity. However, this did not happen over the years. Mr. Frazier may also not remember the scene. Not only because it is 55 years back, but also because he went through a very difficult time, fearing for his family for things over which he did not have any control. So, if you would press on him by insisting on the answer who Prayer Man was, he would raise voice and become emotional.

I have only respect for Mr. Frazier. He is a good man and a good American. I would like to talk to him when I know the interview would be both useful and not hurting as it may become if all details about Prayer Man acquired over the years are communicated to him.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Chris Davidson]

2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

To show the level reached by a person 5' 2 1/2'' on a figure of a man 6', I have prepared a realistic human model with standard male proportions in Poser 11.1. Then I scaled one of the figures to 6' and another to 5' 2 1/2'', and also added a 7 1/2 grid (this refers to the observations that the height of human head fills the body height 7.5 times).

Please note how well the top of the short person's head aligns with the tall person's chin. This is exactly what we see in Darnell and what all other estimates predicted. The 5'4'' line would cross the mouth. This is too a high level of Prayer Man's head compared to what is evidenced in Darnell, and too bad for those few who believe that Prayer Man was Mrs. Stanton (who, by the way, was 5'6''). 

I didn't say your height conclusion from Darnell was wrong. I tried to point out the placement of Prayer Persons head in your previous graphic broke the red colored plane and therefore registered as a height too tall for your conclusion.

Provided is an enlarged representation from a properly aspect ratio'd and rotated version of Darnell. imo

The red "x" marks the photographic center of it.

 

[Andrej Stancak]

Chris:

thanks for looking into my results with such detail. Yes, I rotate the image of the 3D doorway by 1.3 degrees to account for tilted doorway in Darnell. I prefer maintaining the original doorway tilted. The planes I drew have perspective included which you see from their back (glass door) side being lower than the front side. The lines depicting the planes allow only for a rough decision which plane would better align with Prayer Man's or Frazier's head. For that reason, I provided a detailed view with the two heads touching or crossing the planes in question. I hope this helps.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Pat Speer]

I have talked with Frazier four or five times as I recall, twice at the Bethesda conference, and at least twice at Lancer conferences. He has been asked about prayerman in my presence on two or three of those occasions. As I recall, he insists Oswald was not on the front steps. As I recall, he looked at "prayerman" briefly and said he didn't know who that was--but that it most definitely was not Oswald. 

The last time he spoke at Lancer, for that matter, he spoke with his son, and they said they were working on a book on Frazier's connection to the case, and hinted that this book would deal with the prayer man issue as well. I have no idea if this book is still in the works, but was told by Frazier in 2016 that he was still working on it--to which I requested he include as much as he could remember on his co-workers---Shelley, Dougherty, Lovelady, Jarman, etc.

[Michael Clark]

2 hours ago, Chris Davidson said:

I didn't say your height conclusion from Darnell was wrong. I tried to point out the placement of Prayer Persons head in your previous graphic broke the red colored plane and therefore registered as a height too tall for your conclusion.

Provided is an enlarged representation from a properly aspect ratio'd and rotated version of Darnell. imo

The red "x" marks the photographic center of it.

 

Very interesting and very good work guys. Aside from the strong resemblance to LHO your work here is the most compelling work I have seen. I don’t give any credence to the idea that PM is anything but a man but, which is the subject of this thread, but your analysis is spot on if you needed to be convinced that there is a person behind Frazier and it could be Stanton.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Michael Clark

[John Butler]

This is the kind of research I don't care much for here on the forum.  Davidson has arranged his presentation to take height from Buell Frazer and Oswald with his blue lines and therefore deny the accuracy of Andrej's model.

He said he is eliminating the hair aspect.  In doing so he is saying that Prayer Man's head is not the same height as Frazier's Chin.  This not realistic.  It puts the height of Prayer Man's head at the level of Frazier's shoulders.  And, that old dodge of camera perspective doesn't work here.  It appears that Davidson's blue line is at the same level as the red line in Andrej's model.

[David Josephs]

Any chance Prayerman is MOLINA?

He can't be over to the East since Gloria passes right by him....

Initially I thought Molina may be suit/tie man....  he definitely is not walking down to the RR tracks with those 2 men....

FWIW...

 

[Andrej Stancak]

57 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Any chance Prayerman is MOLINA?

He can't be over to the East since Gloria passes right by him....

Initially I thought Molina may be suit/tie man....  he definitely is not walking down to the RR tracks with those 2 men....

FWIW...

 

David:

I would view the three documents, Altgens6-Wiegman-Darnell as a continuous timeline separated by only about 30 seconds. Shots rang out and people in the doorway stood and stared in the direction of disappearing motorcade (all except Prayer Man). Therefore, people seen in Altgens6 are largely at their original spots in Wiegman and Darnell (although there are interesting differences in locations and posture of doorway occupants between Altgens6 and Wiegman suggesting that several seconds have elapsed between shooting these two documents). 

Bill Shelley is at the center of the top landing and he is the only man in the doorway wearing a suit and a dark tie. The yellow lines connect his figure in all three pictures. Below, on the third step in Altgens6 is Otis Williams. He wore a long-sleeved shirt with a tie on that day. He also had a dark jacket but not while standing in the doorway. Mr. Williams is shielding his eyes with his right arm, however, he switched arms in Darnell. He is leaning toward his right. Finally, there is a man without a tie, wearing a short-sleeved white shirt and standing on the second step in Altgens6. This, in my view, was Mr. Molina. Joe Molina provided rather unclear information about his exact location, however, it is clear that he was on one of the top steps and in the eastern part of the doorway. The man shielding his eyes with both arms is the only candidate left for being Mr. Molina. 

 

 

  

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Andrej Stancak]

This is a study on Otis Williams from my Altgens6 project. Mr. Williams had dark hair with wings and a bold spot in-between. He is seen behind the glass door in one of Allen's photographs (A). Please note his tie. There were only two men in the doorway with a tie: Willams and Shelley. The overlay in (D) shows the goodness of the fit between the original Altgens6 Williams and his mannequin.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[Andrej Stancak]

And this would be a study of Bill Shelley. He wore a dark suit and a dark tie and his testimony also suggests that he stood at the center of the top landing. 

[Andrej Stancak]

I do not have any contemporary picture for Joe Molina, so his facial features are largely made up. As a bonus, please see the view of Altgens6 scene from the east, a refreshing view (D).

Edited May 20, 2019 by Andrej Stancak

[David Josephs]

The image I posted above is from 1969...

MOLINA furnished the following descriptive data concerning himself in 1964

Sex Male
Race White
age 40 years
Born June 18, 1924, at Dallas, Texas Height  71,' weight 164 pounds
Eyes Brown
Hair Build Complexion Marks and Scars Wife Children Education Military Service Residence - 18 - Brown, graying, balding in front Stocky Fair Large mole in left eyebrow SOLEDAD MOLINA JOE MOLINA, JR ., aged 171. JOHN MOLINA, aged 101 LINDA MOLINA, aged 141 and, adopted daughter SYLVIA, aged 14 Crozier Technical High School, Dallas U . S . Navy, 1943-46, NSN 1891656 4306 Brown, Dallas, Texas

CE2036

 

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

I have talked with Frazier four or five times as I recall, twice at the Bethesda conference, and at least twice at Lancer conferences. He has been asked about prayerman in my presence on two or three of those occasions. As I recall, he insists Oswald was not on the front steps. As I recall, he looked at "prayerman" briefly and said he didn't know who that was--but that it most definitely was not Oswald. 

The last time he spoke at Lancer, for that matter, he spoke with his son, and they said they were working on a book on Frazier's connection to the case, and hinted that this book would deal with the prayer man issue as well. I have no idea if this book is still in the works, but was told by Frazier in 2016 that he was still working on it--to which I requested he include as much as he could remember on his co-workers---Shelley, Dougherty, Lovelady, Jarman, etc.

Pat,

That's very much what Mr. Frazier told the banned Ed Forum member in a very recent interview.  Thank you.