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David Von Pein

The "Dead Secret Service Agent" Rumor — How Did It Start?

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We don't get a history of remarks by Jackie Kennedy that support something other than rifle fire, and Bobby Kennedy's reactions were formed by Jackie's experience. Jackie's few public complaints were about Greer's driving response time.

As for Yarborough's statement, Clint Hill ran for the car and the agent opposite him made a move to run and was called back by his superior. Yarborough, two cars behind, doesn't offer anything that seriously conflicts with that.

No one reporting pistol-like shots can place their origin or identify a perpetrator, and some of the eyewitness statements (Brehm, Boone) are so imprecisely phrased that they could refer to rifle shots from a distance. Others (the Franzens, Hill) seem to describe the impact noise and disjecta of the head wound. The highlighted portion of Crawford's backfire statement doesn't localize the gunfire noise to the limo area (being that Crawford was a block away), or to the moment of the major head wound. There was more than one comparison made to backfire, and this one is no more revelatory than the others.

David,

I thought Paul Rigby's list was reasonably impressive. "Non one reportng pistol-like shots can place their origin or identify a perpetrator. . "

Re Jackie: She was trying to get out of the car, desperate to do so.

Do you believe the story that she was out on the turtleback lookng for a piece of JFK's head?

If so, then that is your right (of course); but if not, then her attempt to get out of the car, the way she did, is circumstantial evidence she viewed the threat as coming form "the front".

When she exclaimed, "They have murdered my husband, I have his brains in my hand". That doesn't sound like a g-knoll quote.

DSL

David,

Rather specious to assume she's not fleeing rifle shots from the front, rather than pistol shots.

The exit was to the rear, it was also the direction the disjecta flew, or traveled due to the (minimal) motion oi the limo. The Secret Service (with or without concealed assassination weapons...) was to the rear. Was she to crawl into Nellie Connally's lap instead?

Edited by David Andrews

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One more reason to reject the authenticity of the Z-film. "People were jumping out of the car in front of me [the Secret Service followup car] and running to the president‘s car." (Ralph Yarborough) That's something that would be done to a stopped limo, and there is plenty of other evidence that the limo did indeed stop. What happened during that time was probably critical to knowing how the President was murdered, and that's why the limo stop no longer appears in the extant film .

Hi Daniel,

Good to see you back hereabouts.

On the subject of Yarborough's observations about the Secret Service detail's movements on Elm, it's worth noting that he has powerfully supported by the long-ignored testimony of the motorcycle escort. There is a quite outstanding & readily accessible collection of these testimonies in Larry Rivera & Jim Fetzers' The JFK Escort Officers Speak: The Fred Newcomb Interviews: http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/05/01/the-jfk-escort-officers-speak-the-fred-newcomb-interviews/

Paul

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I want to defend Jackie Kennedy. If she was afraid of being shot like her

husband, would she get up on the trunk of the car in a pink suit where

everyone could see her? In my opinion, she was not trying to "escape."

The best thing she could have done would be to duck down with the

President's head on her lap.

There has been much discussion here that the shots came from inside the

car. Maybe when the shots hit their target (JFK) the sound was in the car.

There is one forum on the Internet filled with people who believe Jackie

killed her husband with a small gun under his chin because she was

trained by MKUltra. And some believe the driver shot Kennedy. There

are people who believe it was a fake assassination and that Kennedy

survived and went to Hyannis Port and later, when Jackie married Ari, he

died in Greece on a private island and was buried at sea.

The best evidence (excuse me, David Lifton) to me is the Nix film. There

is a white car with its back toward Elm St on the grassy knoll. It looks like

the shooter is leaning on the front open passenger door and shooting at

the limo with a rifle. You can see this in the enhanced, enlarged copy of

the film on youtube. If you look at the Bell film after the assassination, the

car is no longer there.

Kathy C

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Kathleen's post triggered a reminder to me that when interviewer's get the opportunity to question living witnesses they often do more harm than good in the questions they fail to ask their guest. The general public does not have the means or opportunities to ask questions themselves. A good example of this is the list of interviews conducted by the Sixth Floor Museum & posted on YouTube.

The car with the door shooter Kathleen describes in the Nix film might have been seen by Buell Frazier leaving the area. Frazier told the Museum in his recent interview that he was scared & hung around the TSBD steps for a while after the ambush. The interviewer did not ask him if he saw any cars leave the parking lot area after the attack.

The Newman family had probably the best view of the ambush that culminated directly in front of them because neither of the adults was distracted from filming the JFK parade car approaching & passing them. Simple questions incorporating research revelations such as 'did you smell gunsmoke in Elm Street', 'does the Zapruder, Nix, Muchmore & Bell films depict everything you saw; if not, what is missing?' or 'what were the SS agents doing within your view' have yet to be asked of the Newmans' when the Museum interviews them as guests & posts their interview videos on YouTube. As a result, today's global public & that of future generations continues to be cheated out of their history by questionable people with questionable motives that conduct themselves as their visual trail demonstrates on a crime of global importance when interviewing living witnesses. We ask the questions here at the Ed Forum interviewers & MSM do not.

Everyone's input is important on this case IMHO. A football coach I once knew compared the ambush of JFK to a series of quick football plays that moved the ball downfield rapidly to the end zone & left the opposing team & spectators stunned, mystified & baffled. The TSBD shooter was there to draw the attention of the motorcade approaching that position, the knoll shooter was there to draw attention away from the SS guards directly behind JFK. While the stunned spectators tried to take it all in, the doomed President had entered Elm Street very much alive & departed it a homicide victim. Slick plays, slick crime.

What happened with the JFK guards on Elm Street ties into David Lifton & Doug Horne's research. That research, IMHO, along with the combined efforts of those that visit,comment on this Educational Forum & researchers that work diligently at finding answers takes us as close to the truth of JFK's demise in Dealey Plaza as we are ever likely to get.

To myself, I like to think there's some sort of comradery between US Government agencies in that a suspected CIA or FBI sharpshooter positioned in the TSBD would not fire over the heads & shoulders of fellow operatives for risk of wounding or killing some of them. Same for the GK. Then again, I wasn't there when all this went down & I was a kid playing marbles at recess.

What we discuss here in Mr. Von Pein's thread is a friendly reminder from us to him as to why we collectively do or do not buy his flavor of Kool Aid. What we all leave here for future generations to absorb & ponder is a written reminder that something very wrong occurred in our lifetime that none of us had the power to prevent & the official & MSM explanation of what happened to JFK in Dallas has not satisfied many of us. That's all we legally have the power to do under the US system of justice.

BM

PS (just @Kathleen): As a fellow who has spent time with some ladies in my life (thank you, my guardian angels!!!), knows a bit about astrology & the animal kingdom in general, my own take on Jackie's reaction to the shooting is this: A woman that loves her man (regardless if she's a Leo like Jackie was) or a lioness protecting her lion (also Leo's), will instantly move to attack whatever is threatening her mate. What I see in the Z-film is Jackie going after her husband's killer where she perceives that person to be; in this case, not towards the Parade Car's front seat, the TSBD or the Elm St. sidewalk, but in the car directly behind her on the right hand side (where SAIC Roberts, SS agents Ready & Landis were). I have no doubt that had she made it off the trunk she would have bashed the agent with the weapon he was holding once she pried it out of his hands. I suspect that agent would also have lost one or both testicles & have been clawed, bitten, punched & kicked from head to toe while ducking any & all objects hurled as airborne projectiles.

Had the shot originated from the parade car's front seat, Kellerman or Greer would have been bashed. Jackie would have flown over the Connallys' & beaten her husband's attacker there IMHO. I've witnessed too many women respond to a crisis situation attempting to protect their child or other loved one from an attack or other forms of danger to think otherwise. Any man who foolishly believes a scared, mad woman cannot deliver a Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield or George Foreman quality fight in a crisis situation has never had one 'go off' on them (lol).

Jackie demonstrated to the global public just how strong & determined a woman she was in the sad & spectacular burial of her husband that she orchestrated.

I may be wrong, Kathleen, but that's how I see it....

BM

Edited by Brad Milch

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One more reason to reject the authenticity of the Z-film. "People were jumping out of the car in front of me [the Secret Service followup car] and running to the president‘s car." (Ralph Yarborough) That's something that would be done to a stopped limo, and there is plenty of other evidence that the limo did indeed stop. What happened during that time was probably critical to knowing how the President was murdered, and that's why the limo stop no longer appears in the extant film .

Hi Daniel,

Good to see you back hereabouts.

On the subject of Yarborough's observations about the Secret Service detail's movements on Elm, it's worth noting that he has powerfully supported by the long-ignored testimony of the motorcycle escort. There is a quite outstanding & readily accessible collection of these testimonies in Larry Rivera & Jim Fetzers' The JFK Escort Officers Speak: The Fred Newcomb Interviews: http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/05/01/the-jfk-escort-officers-speak-the-fred-newcomb-interviews/

Paul

Thanks Paul -- I've been away a long time working on a book on Differential Equations and frankly, detached from the JFK controversy just to keep on track with that project. My conviction is that the limo stop and what occurred during that time is central to understanding how Kennedy was murdered. As to whether or not shots were fired in the car, it seems the eye-witnesses at the scene seemed to think that something like a shot occurred. I am not competent to say, but await the research of others who have spent a great deal of time with this problem, and publish the results of their work.

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Wow Brad - that was quite a post. I have never heard that explanation of Jackie's movements before. What would have happened had she gone on the warpath after returning home? She was hugely respected.

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What I see in the Z-film is Jackie going after her husband's killer where she perceives that person to be; in this case, not towards the Parade Car's front seat, the TSBD or the Elm St. sidewalk, but in the car directly behind her

If the fatal shot came from the front, with her sitting right beside him, why would she go after someone behind them? If she somehow mistakenly thought that the shot came from behind, she was nevertheless mistaken.

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I don't hold any animus toward Jackie, nor judge her for her actions once Kennedy took his head wound, which was traumatic to her, to say the least. But I think her motives for going out on the trunk were only partly out of the solicitousness she showed JFK when he was wounded before frame 313, and largely out of a blind panic to survive.

Another woman (Nellie Connally, e.g.) would have pulled her husband down and shielded him in the car, making them each smaller targets. Jackie, as Zapruder shows, pushed Jack's body aside and made for the trunk (instinctively going for Clint Hill?), and - I think - secondarily paused to retrieve brain matter from the trunk once she saw that Hill was going to compel her to return to her seat. It is probable that she knew instantly that Kennedy could not survive such a wound, and believed he was likely dead where he sat.

Climbing out on the trunk in panic actually made her a greater target to any "nut" assassin out to kill all the passengers; it's possible, however, that she sensed that JFK and Connally were the true targets, not the wives nor the Secret Service agents.

I don't buy the lioness characterization of her at that moment, and the older I get, the less store I put in astrology as a predictor of any kind (this after an intense youthful interest). However, Jackie's actions in wearing the bloodstained suit home - and to the LBJ inauguration, plus her private, verbal comments on the assassination, are credits to her character.

Edited by David Andrews

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Kathleen's post triggered a reminder to me that when interviewer's get the opportunity to question living witnesses they often do more harm than good in the questions they fail to ask their guest. The general public does not have the means or opportunities to ask questions themselves. A good example of this is the list of interviews conducted by the Sixth Floor Museum & posted on YouTube.

"...knows a bit about astrology..."

BM

In acknowledgement of Brad, but not to break the thread here, I just want to say I was once, decades ago, a professional astrologer. I don't do charts anymore. Too much work for too little money. I never bull-s------ anyone.

Kathy C

Edited by Kathleen Collins

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Wow Brad - that was quite a post. I have never heard that explanation of Jackie's movements before. What would have happened had she gone on the warpath after returning home? She was hugely respected.

Though it's overwritten and mentions every triviality of that weekend, Death of a President by William Manchester describes Jackie throughout Nov.22, '63 and Nov. 23. The book is interesting in degrees. Sections are fascinating and much is unknown to the average reader.

Kathy C

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@Kathleen & those that commented in close proximity:

Ladies 1st: You have my highest respect for your gift of Astrology, Kathleen. This tells me that you are highly skilled in math. Those that know me well realize that if smart girls in school (especially in math) had not helped me struggle through middle & high school, I'd probably still be stuck back there, the oldest in the class by several decades [[[[tears beginning to form in both eyes]]]]. All the Astrologers I've ever met were very kind, patient, people loving folks. You can add me to your list of fans, Kathleen. If you ever run for High Office, one vote will be waiting for you (mine!). BTW, my sign is Libra (probably the worst of the bunch). Famous Libras: John Lennon, Ed Sullivan, Bridget Bardot, Natalie Maines & Emily Robinson (Dixie Chicks), Marty Stuart, Lee Harvey Oswald.

My interpretation of Jackie's movements just after her husband lost his life are mine only, based on what I've seen women do in life under traumatic circumstances. Other's see it differently & that's quite understandable. If Jackie thought her husband's killer was in the front seat of the JFK parade car & attempted to flee off the trunk in a panic, she was still boxed in by SS agents. Had it been me, I probably would have headed towards the grassy meridian area & zig-zagged until I got to the South knoll parking lot or South Pergola & hid in the parking lot (if I made it that far). Whoever wanted to shoot me would have to work at it....

For those who believe the fatal shot to JFK came from the proximity of the SS vehicle, line up the windshield damage to where JFK's head was at Z-313. The line runs directly back to the right front fender of the Queen Mary, in the immediate area of SAIC Emory Roberts & John Ready. The Nix film shows a glimpse of Mr. Ready in the street on his side of the Queen Mary. Roberts never left his position in the front seat of the Queen Mary. Both of them are at the top of my suspects list.

I'm sure this will offend SS agent groupies, but's where I believe the fatal shot came from. Maybe someday Chris Davidson or another gifted mathematician can compute how much velocity was needed to drive the Harper fragment from JFK's doomed head to where the fragment was found near the end of the grass meridian in Dealey Plaza. Perhaps that math could prove if JFK was shot at point blank range. I would find that of interest in this case. How people decide to become SS agent groupies would not be of interest to me at all.

I believe there is no acceptable reason for the SS agents & their transport vehicle to be missing from the original investigators' re-enactments & trajectory analysis (FBI & SS 1963-1964), all of the CBS TV specials (and other MSM network specials that conducted re-enactments or used what the WC published), all of the History, Discovery, Nat Geo, Tru-TV JFK TV specials and the various TV computer animations that depict a solo, unguarded JFK parade car traversing Elm Street during the ambush. The Queen Mary's precise location at the Z-313 (fatal headshot) can be seen in the Nix, Muchmore & Bronson films. There is no mystery of where it & its occupants were when President Kennedy lost his life 53 years ago. Any re-enactment analysis that leaves the Queen Mary& its original JFK ambush SS agents representatives out is selling the public snake oil.

BM

Edited by Brad Milch

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Kathleen - decades ago I was an amateur astrologer, and also good at math by the way.

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I've often wondered who it was who originated the false rumor on 11/22/63 that a Secret Service agent had been killed during President Kennedy's assassination in Dallas' Dealey Plaza. Does anyone here have any idea?

Some people I have talked to over the years have speculated that perhaps policeman J.D. Tippit's death was incorrectly reported as being the death of a member of the Secret Service. But that cannot possibly be the case, because Tippit had not yet been shot when the first bulletins were aired on television and radio concerning the alleged death of the SS agent.

The false rumor about the SS agent most probably first ran on the UPI or AP wire services, because it was widely being reported very early in the afternoon on November 22 by several different local and network TV and radio outlets [see the videos below]. In the first video, Eddie Barker of KRLD-TV in Dallas can be heard saying "a Secret Service agent was killed" as early as 12:56 PM CST, which was certainly before Officer Tippit was shot. I was able to pinpoint that time (12:56 PM) precisely by comparing the raw KRLD-TV video below with the uncut CBS-TV network video that I also have in my collection.

Vincent Bugliosi does have an endnote devoted to the rumor about the alleged dead SS agent. It would appear as if the rumor made its way into the media through reporter Seth Kantor, but it certainly didn't originate with him. Kantor was merely writing down in his notes what someone else had told him. And even that source appears to be a case of triple hearsay (at least). Here's what Bugliosi wrote in his book "Reclaiming History"....

"In his scribbled notes on the assassination, Scripps Howard reporter Seth Kantor wrote that while at Parkland Hospital following the president’s death, he overheard a nurse ask a Western Union man [quoting Kantor's notes...] “about a report that a Secret Service Agent had been killed out on the street. He [Western Union man] said that it was true. This was one of the immediate rumors that sprung up. It took several days for this particular rumor not to be believed in Dallas itself (fellow in Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall who got it from a friend who got it from a postman supposed to have been at the death scene that the shot and bleeding SS man was picked up and whisked away and it was all hushed up [apparently, out of the several hundred people in Dealey Plaza at the time of the shooting, only the postman saw this event]. Why? I asked [Kantor doesn’t say whom he asked]. Because they [secret Service] even have to die in secret, he said. He and others hinted that maybe the SS man was in on the plot to kill the President.)” (Kantor Exhibit No. 4, 20 H 410) There of course is no evidence that the above rumor was true." -- Vincent Bugliosi; Pages 710-711 of Endnotes in "Reclaiming History"

KRLD-TV BULLETINS FROM THE TRADE MART ON 11/22/63

MEDIA ERRORS (NOVEMBER 22-24, 1963)

I'm writing to attempt to clarify the record, and correct two mis-statements (or misunderstandings) concerning the origin of the rumor about a dead Secret Service agent.

#1: That the rumor originated via the wire services: (i.e., AP or UPI): INCORRECT.

QUOTING FROM YOUR POST (i.e., DVP's post):

"The false rumor about the SS agent most probably first ran on the UPI or AP wire services, because it was widely being reported very early in the afternoon on November 22 by several different local and network TV and radio outlets [see the videos below]. In the first video, Eddie Barker of KRLD-TV in Dallas can be heard saying "a Secret Service agent was killed" as early as 12:56 PM CST, which was certainly before Officer Tippit was shot. I was able to pinpoint that time (12:56 PM) precisely by comparing the raw KRLD-TV video below with the uncut CBS-TV network video that I also have in my collection. UNQUOTE

DSL COMMENT: Years ago, I obtained the teletype printout for both the UPI and AP "A" wire. There was no mention of any Secret Service agent being shot prior to 12:56 pm. The only mention of an SS agent being shot appeared well after the Tippit murder; and that was a single dispatch saying something to the effect that a Dallas policeman and a SS agent were shot in the Oak Cliff area (from memory). The teletype records I obtained were definitive: there was only one AP "A" wire; and the same for UPI. There were indeed instances where a network anchor in New York were simply "reading the wire"--and usually, when they did, they acknowledged it. But, rest assured, that prior to 12:56 p.m. CST, there was no statement on either the UPI "A" wire or the AP "A" wire that a Secret Service agent had been shot.

#2: That Seth Kantor was somehow responsible for the dissemination of the rumor: INCORRECT.

Again, quoting from your post: "It would appear as if the rumor made its way into the media through reporter Seth Kantor, but it certainly didn't originate with him. Kantor was merely writing down in his notes what someone else had told him."

DSL COMMENT: Well, we agree on that; i.e., it didn't "originate" with him. So then, was he (Seth Kantor) somehow involved in the dissemination? I don't think so.

And here's why. . . :

When Kantor testified in June 1964 (See WC Vol 15 pp 91-93) he provided 19 pages of single spaced notes (actually, not notes; but complete sentences). He explained the origin of these 19 pages as follows: that when he returned from Dallas, he had much information that he hadn't written about, all resident in his head; and he wanted to make a record. So he rented a tape recorder, spoke into it, and then--using a typewriter--personally transcribed his own dictation. The result: about 19 pages of transcription totaling about 17,000 words. In the middle of the eighth page is the story of what he heard at Parkland Hospital. Anyway, these 19 pages weren't completed until sometime during the first week of December 1963, and--as far as we know--were not turned over to anyone but the Warren Commission, and that took place in June 1964. My conclusion from all this: Seth Kantor had nothing to do with the dissemination of information pertaining to radio and TV broadcasts about a Secret Service agent being shot which--as you have pointed out--began at about 12:56 p.m. CST (on Friday, 11/22/63).

Hope this helps.

DSL

4/21/16 - 9:25 p.m. PDT; edited 4/22/16; 8:58 a.m. PDT

Los Angeles, California

Edited by David Lifton

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On 4/15/2016 at 5:59 AM, Joseph McBride said:

From my 2013 book INTO THE NIGHTMARE: MY SEARCH FOR THE KILLERS OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY AND OFFICER J. D. TIPPIT

THE DEAD SECRET SERVICE AGENT STORY

 And as was noted in Chapter 13, DPD Detective Marvin A. Buhk reported to Chief Curry on December 3 that Secret Service men had been involved in the hunt for the suspect in the Tippit killing.

 

 The first reports of the murder of Patrolman Tippit also related that a Secret Service man had been wounded; since then, nothing has been heard about that Secret Service man. What was his relation to Patrolman Tippit...

As Buhk wrote in his after-action report to Police Chief Jesse Curry on December 3, 1963, “We converged on that location and there were Secret Service men and other patrol and CID officers present when all the people were ordered out of the building. One of the Secret Service men stated the person who came out of the basement with the others was not the suspect and that he had already talked to him a few minutes previously.”

Notice that Marvin Buhk speaks of more than one Agent being present. The “Agent” Buhk spoke to was also a primary catalyst in shifting attention away from the branch library. At 1:34PM, Patrolman C.T. Walker broadcasts on Channel 2 that the suspect is in the Library. At approximately 1:40 Sergeant C.B. Owens tells Dispatch, and the Dispatcher broadcasts to all cars to “Disregard all information on the suspect arrested, it was the wrong man.” This is only about an six-minute window of opportunity. When did these “secret service men” arrive at the Library, how did they know to go there, and when did one of them have time to “talk to the man previously”?

 

Steve Thomas

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